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The Official 2016 World Series Thread
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Post by Oregon Norm on Oct 30, 2016 6:37:01 GMT -5
If Cleveland does end up winning this, the Cubs should think about having bought into the hype surrounding the Series. Fox' coverage, the imagery, the packaging, the constant camera shots of Chicago fans and luminaries,... all of it had the effect of casting the Series as a done deal. A lot of disrespect for the Indians in my opinion. The fact that they blew out the Sox and Jays meant they weren't about to roll over for anyone, and they haven't. With the loss of Carrasco and Salazar, they simply re-calibrated their pitcher usage to emphasize their bullpen strength. Great tactics for a brilliant strategy.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 30, 2016 8:50:41 GMT -5
Gotta like the irony here.
The last time Terry Francona was hoping his team would win the World Series he had Jon Lester starting FOR him. Tonight he's hoping his team wins the World Series and he has Jon Lester starting AGAINST him.
Crazy game, this baseball.
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Post by costpet on Oct 30, 2016 10:30:21 GMT -5
I always root for Francona, unless he's playing against the Sox. He's such a good guy and didn't deserve the crap the Sox management heaped on him when he left. My impression, at the time, was that he was exhausted. All that Boston pressure finally got to him. He needed to go to a city where not a lot was expected or demanded of him. He could relax and just manage. He got that. Now we know what we lost.
I hope the Cubs use Lackey again and he's charged with the loss.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 30, 2016 11:05:10 GMT -5
The new market inefficiency is finding pitchers who throw great curve balls (and sliders) in the post season. It seems like players can't lay off them and can't hit them. It looks like a pitch that is much more effective in the postseason. We definitely saw that when the Red Sox played the Indians and it has continued through the entire playoffs. This is why the Indians look practically unbeatable IMO.
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Post by DesignatedKyle on Oct 30, 2016 16:02:47 GMT -5
I always root for Francona, unless he's playing against the Sox. He's such a good guy and didn't deserve the crap the Sox management heaped on him when he left. My impression, at the time, was that he was exhausted. All that Boston pressure finally got to him. He needed to go to a city where not a lot was expected or demanded of him. He could relax and just manage. He got that. Now we know what we lost. I hope the Cubs use Lackey again and he's charged with the loss. Harsh on Lackey. I got mad love for the dude.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 30, 2016 17:37:06 GMT -5
I always root for Francona, unless he's playing against the Sox. He's such a good guy and didn't deserve the crap the Sox management heaped on him when he left. My impression, at the time, was that he was exhausted. All that Boston pressure finally got to him. He needed to go to a city where not a lot was expected or demanded of him. He could relax and just manage. He got that. Now we know what we lost. I hope the Cubs use Lackey again and he's charged with the loss. Harsh on Lackey. I got mad love for the dude. Can't say I have a made love for the dude, but I can say I have a begrudging respect for him. He'll always be the guy who won the clincher with 6.2 strong innings of dodging jams. Both him and Carl Mays, another guy who complained about fielder's errors behind him and was soon traded in midseason a year later, make good company for each other as after all Carl Mays was the winning pitcher in the 1918 clincher, the last time the Sox had a clincher at Fenway in the World Series.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 30, 2016 19:39:17 GMT -5
Did I really just see a Cubs fan throw the Ramirez HR ball directly to the SS without bouncing?
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 30, 2016 19:59:38 GMT -5
Hot take from Joe Buck (paraphrasing liberally) - pitchers would rather there be no one on base when they give up a HR.
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Post by telson13 on Oct 30, 2016 21:28:16 GMT -5
Hot take from Joe Buck (paraphrasing liberally) - pitchers would rather there be no one on base when they give up a HR. Reminds me of way back in the day when Beasley Reece brilliantly observed, upon old friend Leonard Russell's 4 yard gain for the Pats dragging multiple tacklers (probably over 4-5 seconds, only marginally longer than it took him to run 4 yards in the open field) "Now that's why I like Leinard Russell!! Leonard Russell's the kinda running back who likes to gain a lotta yards!!!"
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Post by kman22 on Oct 30, 2016 21:37:27 GMT -5
Did I really just see a Cubs fan throw the Ramirez HR ball directly to the SS without bouncing? He had broken his arm and the tendons are still a little tight. For the time being, the kid has got a rocket arm.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 30, 2016 21:38:19 GMT -5
I've gotta ask - I know it's the fashion to pull starters ASAP, but why in the world did Lester get pulled after 6 innings with a lead and only 90 pitches thrown? The pinchhitter spot couldn't have been that crucial. Now after the predictable scoring threat has now occurred, they need to have Chapman get 8 outs to close out the win. It makes no sense. I don't see why they didn't think Lester could go one more inning and get 3 more badly needed outs. It's not like he was getting tagged.
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Post by telson13 on Oct 30, 2016 21:52:24 GMT -5
I have to say, I'm really rooting for the Indians, for ten reasons: 1) Tito. He had his issues in 2011, but everyone goes through tough personal times. I didn't like them firing him, nor the "leak" about why afterwards. He just seems like a really terrific guy to me. I just flat-out like the dude. And wow, what a manager. 2) Mike Napoli. Him wandering the streets after 2013, partying shirtless with locals...hilarious, and yet telling. Another great dude. 3) They're going to have to work a lot harder to get back. I can see the Cubs having plenty more chances, but not Cleveland nearly as much (though Lindor...wow...he looks like the kind of guy who just makes a team). 4) Andrew Miller's run in these playoffs just deserves the sort of historical indelibility that a WS win provides. 5) They beat the Sox, fair and square. 6) I want to see what Theo does with the Cubs if they don't win this year. Just pure curiosity. He once argued against the "uber-team," but what does he do when he's essentially already got one, and lost? 7) I just flat-out don't like Jon Lester. I really liked him a lot while he was with the Sox, and maybe they low-balled him *a little* (don't forget, he was terrible just two years prior and simply "solid" in 2013). But I'm 99% certain his whole "hometown discount" interview in 2014 was strictly a means to jack up bidding by manipulating fans/media. I find him wholly disingenuous. Ellsbury may be a mercenary, but at least he never lied about it. I'm glad Lester won with the Sox, and I'm grateful for his huge part in 2013. I certainly don't hate him by any stretch, but part of me wants to see him end his career without another title...maybe even blow a game himself...and watch the Sox win a few without him. 8) Joe Maddon bugs the sh*t out of me. Him losing again in the WS, with a heavily-favored team, will hopefully quiet the national media love-fest. 9) AL all the way, baby. Even with the DH. League pride. 10) Wait for it... That's what I want Cubs fans to do. Not in a mean way, but in a "2004 was SO much better after 2003" kind of way.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 30, 2016 22:05:19 GMT -5
Interesting how Tito has it. He has his closer in to keep the game close and if they get to the 9th inning with a lead or a tie, he has Miller available to finish off the game with Otero in reserve if the game goes extra innings.
With the Cubs, it looks like it's Chapman or bust.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 30, 2016 22:08:19 GMT -5
I have to say, I'm really rooting for the Indians, for ten reasons: 1) Tito. He had his issues in 2011, but everyone goes through tough personal times. I didn't like them firing him, nor the "leak" about why afterwards. He just seems like a really terrific guy to me. I just flat-out like the dude. And wow, what a manager. 2) Mike Napoli. Him wandering the streets after 2013, partying shirtless with locals...hilarious, and yet telling. Another great dude. 3) They're going to have to work a lot harder to get back. I can see the Cubs having plenty more chances, but not Cleveland nearly as much (though Lindor...wow...he looks like the kind of guy who just makes a team). 4) Andrew Miller's run in these playoffs just deserves the sort of historical indelibility that a WS win provides.5) They beat the Sox, fair and square. 6) I want to see what Theo does with the Cubs if they don't win this year. Just pure curiosity. He once argued against the "uber-team," but what does he do when he's essentially already got one, and lost? 7) I just flat-out don't like Jon Lester. I really liked him a lot while he was with the Sox, and maybe they low-balled him *a little* (don't forget, he was terrible just two years prior and simply "solid" in 2013). But I'm 99% certain his whole "hometown discount" interview in 2014 was strictly a means to jack up bidding by manipulating fans/media. I find him wholly disingenuous. Ellsbury may be a mercenary, but at least he never lied about it. I'm glad Lester won with the Sox, and I'm grateful for his huge part in 2013. I certainly don't hate him by any stretch, but part of me wants to see him end his career without another title...maybe even blow a game himself...and watch the Sox win a few without him. 8) Joe Maddon bugs the sh*t out of me. Him losing again in the WS, with a heavily-favored team, will hopefully quiet the national media love-fest. 9) AL all the way, baby. Even with the DH. League pride. 10) Wait for it... That's what I want Cubs fans to do. Not in a mean way, but in a "2004 was SO much better after 2003" kind of way. Totally true about Miller, but really, without a ton of publicity it's been a two headed monster. Allen has given up absolutely nothing. When Miller left the game in the ALDS, I'd think man he was so tough Allen should be a pushover, but he wasn't. He always got the outs he needed to get. Allen deserves a lot of credit, too. The Miller thing doesn't work if they don't have Allen nailing the games shut at the end. What a 1-2 punch they have been.
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Post by DesignatedKyle on Oct 30, 2016 22:24:22 GMT -5
Just another fantastic baseball game.
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Post by DesignatedKyle on Oct 30, 2016 22:46:33 GMT -5
Proven and elite performance right there
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 30, 2016 23:00:30 GMT -5
After watching this post-season I think some of these relievers' values need to be re-evaluated. WAR doesn't capture the post-season impact of guys like Miller, Chapman, and even Allen.
Watching these guys drives home the point even further that Kimbrel isn't going to be one of these guys. He can't go multiple innings and dominate because he'd walk too many guys driving up his pitch count something fierce. The guy with the best chance to be something resembling an Andrew Miller is Joe Kelly, and it's hard to have great expectations with Kelly, but he's got the stuff to do it and he can probably work multiple innings at times if need be (in the post-season).
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Post by soxpatsceltics on Oct 31, 2016 2:10:51 GMT -5
As a college student in Chicago, I've been able to be outside the park and in the bars for most of the playoff games this year, the atmosphere is electric in Wrigleyville.
I doubt that the practice extends to the same degree in the regular season, but the way both teams have been deploying relievers throughout the postseason might have a significant effect on a pitcher's role, aka the best reliever not necessarily being the 9th inning guy. It's easier to exploit an utilize in the AL because the relievers don't have to bat, but a guy like Joe Kelly or Barnes(if he puts it all together), I could see being cast in the super-middle reliever role. Jake Cosart is another name to watch for in 2018.
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Post by sox fan in nc on Oct 31, 2016 10:19:34 GMT -5
I have to say, I'm really rooting for the Indians, for ten reasons: 1) Tito. He had his issues in 2011, but everyone goes through tough personal times. I didn't like them firing him, nor the "leak" about why afterwards. He just seems like a really terrific guy to me. I just flat-out like the dude. And wow, what a manager. 2) Mike Napoli. Him wandering the streets after 2013, partying shirtless with locals...hilarious, and yet telling. Another great dude. 3) They're going to have to work a lot harder to get back. I can see the Cubs having plenty more chances, but not Cleveland nearly as much (though Lindor...wow...he looks like the kind of guy who just makes a team). 4) Andrew Miller's run in these playoffs just deserves the sort of historical indelibility that a WS win provides. 5) They beat the Sox, fair and square. 6) I want to see what Theo does with the Cubs if they don't win this year. Just pure curiosity. He once argued against the "uber-team," but what does he do when he's essentially already got one, and lost? 7) I just flat-out don't like Jon Lester. I really liked him a lot while he was with the Sox, and maybe they low-balled him *a little* (don't forget, he was terrible just two years prior and simply "solid" in 2013). But I'm 99% certain his whole "hometown discount" interview in 2014 was strictly a means to jack up bidding by manipulating fans/media. I find him wholly disingenuous. Ellsbury may be a mercenary, but at least he never lied about it. I'm glad Lester won with the Sox, and I'm grateful for his huge part in 2013. I certainly don't hate him by any stretch, but part of me wants to see him end his career without another title...maybe even blow a game himself...and watch the Sox win a few without him. 8) Joe Maddon bugs the sh*t out of me. Him losing again in the WS, with a heavily-favored team, will hopefully quiet the national media love-fest. 9) AL all the way, baby. Even with the DH. League pride. 10) Wait for it... That's what I want Cubs fans to do. Not in a mean way, but in a "2004 was SO much better after 2003" kind of way. Great post. I would add that Cleveland has the SECOND longest WS drought. Agree on the Lester contract situation and the 2 prior so-so years (a lot of people tend to want to forget that part). I mean, really, who would you rather have a beer with---Tito and Napoli, or Theo & Lester?
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Post by ray88h66 on Oct 31, 2016 11:43:48 GMT -5
I have to say, I'm really rooting for the Indians, for ten reasons: 1) Tito. He had his issues in 2011, but everyone goes through tough personal times. I didn't like them firing him, nor the "leak" about why afterwards. He just seems like a really terrific guy to me. I just flat-out like the dude. And wow, what a manager. 2) Mike Napoli. Him wandering the streets after 2013, partying shirtless with locals...hilarious, and yet telling. Another great dude. 3) They're going to have to work a lot harder to get back. I can see the Cubs having plenty more chances, but not Cleveland nearly as much (though Lindor...wow...he looks like the kind of guy who just makes a team). 4) Andrew Miller's run in these playoffs just deserves the sort of historical indelibility that a WS win provides. 5) They beat the Sox, fair and square. 6) I want to see what Theo does with the Cubs if they don't win this year. Just pure curiosity. He once argued against the "uber-team," but what does he do when he's essentially already got one, and lost? 7) I just flat-out don't like Jon Lester. I really liked him a lot while he was with the Sox, and maybe they low-balled him *a little* (don't forget, he was terrible just two years prior and simply "solid" in 2013). But I'm 99% certain his whole "hometown discount" interview in 2014 was strictly a means to jack up bidding by manipulating fans/media. I find him wholly disingenuous. Ellsbury may be a mercenary, but at least he never lied about it. I'm glad Lester won with the Sox, and I'm grateful for his huge part in 2013. I certainly don't hate him by any stretch, but part of me wants to see him end his career without another title...maybe even blow a game himself...and watch the Sox win a few without him. 8) Joe Maddon bugs the sh*t out of me. Him losing again in the WS, with a heavily-favored team, will hopefully quiet the national media love-fest. 9) AL all the way, baby. Even with the DH. League pride. 10) Wait for it... That's what I want Cubs fans to do. Not in a mean way, but in a "2004 was SO much better after 2003" kind of way. Great post. I would add that Cleveland has the SECOND longest WS drought. Agree on the Lester contract situation and the 2 prior so-so years (a lot of people tend to want to forget that part). I mean, really, who would you rather have a beer with---Tito and Napoli, or Theo & Lester?
I'd have a beer with Theo and Lester, Whiskey with Tito and Nap. I like all these guys.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 31, 2016 15:06:43 GMT -5
I have to say, I'm really rooting for the Indians, for ten reasons: 1) Tito. He had his issues in 2011, but everyone goes through tough personal times. I didn't like them firing him, nor the "leak" about why afterwards. He just seems like a really terrific guy to me. I just flat-out like the dude. And wow, what a manager. 2) Mike Napoli. Him wandering the streets after 2013, partying shirtless with locals...hilarious, and yet telling. Another great dude. 3) They're going to have to work a lot harder to get back. I can see the Cubs having plenty more chances, but not Cleveland nearly as much (though Lindor...wow...he looks like the kind of guy who just makes a team). 4) Andrew Miller's run in these playoffs just deserves the sort of historical indelibility that a WS win provides. 5) They beat the Sox, fair and square. 6) I want to see what Theo does with the Cubs if they don't win this year. Just pure curiosity. He once argued against the "uber-team," but what does he do when he's essentially already got one, and lost? 7) I just flat-out don't like Jon Lester. I really liked him a lot while he was with the Sox, and maybe they low-balled him *a little* (don't forget, he was terrible just two years prior and simply "solid" in 2013). But I'm 99% certain his whole "hometown discount" interview in 2014 was strictly a means to jack up bidding by manipulating fans/media. I find him wholly disingenuous. Ellsbury may be a mercenary, but at least he never lied about it. I'm glad Lester won with the Sox, and I'm grateful for his huge part in 2013. I certainly don't hate him by any stretch, but part of me wants to see him end his career without another title...maybe even blow a game himself...and watch the Sox win a few without him. 8) Joe Maddon bugs the sh*t out of me. Him losing again in the WS, with a heavily-favored team, will hopefully quiet the national media love-fest. 9) AL all the way, baby. Even with the DH. League pride. 10) Wait for it... That's what I want Cubs fans to do. Not in a mean way, but in a "2004 was SO much better after 2003" kind of way. Great post. I would add that Cleveland has the SECOND longest WS drought. Agree on the Lester contract situation and the 2 prior so-so years (a lot of people tend to want to forget that part). I mean, really, who would you rather have a beer with---Tito and Napoli, or Theo & Lester?Theo and anyone. Also, since I don't really know what any of those people are like personally, and it's exceedingly unlikely that I'll ever have a beer with any of them, it doesn't really play into my rooting interests. I want two more baseball games and I want them to be good.
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Post by deepjohn on Oct 31, 2016 15:58:09 GMT -5
The new market inefficiency is finding pitchers who throw great curve balls (and sliders) in the post season. It seems like players can't lay off them and can't hit them. It looks like a pitch that is much more effective in the postseason. We definitely saw that when the Red Sox played the Indians and it has continued through the entire playoffs. This is why the Indians look practically unbeatable IMO. That was Pomeranz. Awesome curveball. Several innings of shutdown relief. And it worked, until a fluke did us in. We win Game 3, and live to fight Game 4... Then teams that come back from 2-0 win Game 5 something like 70%. Ah well, one that got away.
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Post by deepjohn on Oct 31, 2016 16:39:15 GMT -5
After watching this post-season I think some of these relievers' values need to be re-evaluated. WAR doesn't capture the post-season impact of guys like Miller, Chapman, and even Allen. Watching these guys drives home the point even further that Kimbrel isn't going to be one of these guys. He can't go multiple innings and dominate because he'd walk too many guys driving up his pitch count something fierce. The guy with the best chance to be something resembling an Andrew Miller is Joe Kelly, and it's hard to have great expectations with Kelly, but he's got the stuff to do it and he can probably work multiple innings at times if need be (in the post-season). Kimbrel is that guy. Always been a high leverage performer. Power curveball to match Chapman's. In most of Kimbrel's games he had an other-worldly WHIP of something like 0.67 (17 games from 8/13 through 9/24, and 37% K-BB), with very few pitches to get through the inning (and then several blowups). With Pomeranz and Kelly, the Red Sox did match up against Cleveland in the late innings. Porcello and Price, unfortunately, had bad games. Cleveland scouted/analyzed them well. Buchholz did his part, and kept us in the game. I think they'll try to extend him for 4/60, now that they "fixed" his arm angle throwing from the stretch.
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Post by Don Caballero on Oct 31, 2016 17:31:59 GMT -5
Great post. I would add that Cleveland has the SECOND longest WS drought. Agree on the Lester contract situation and the 2 prior so-so years (a lot of people tend to want to forget that part). I mean, really, who would you rather have a beer with---Tito and Napoli, or Theo & Lester? Tito and Napoli so we could laugh about that time Theo signed Carl Crawford.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 31, 2016 19:14:03 GMT -5
After watching this post-season I think some of these relievers' values need to be re-evaluated. WAR doesn't capture the post-season impact of guys like Miller, Chapman, and even Allen. Watching these guys drives home the point even further that Kimbrel isn't going to be one of these guys. He can't go multiple innings and dominate because he'd walk too many guys driving up his pitch count something fierce. The guy with the best chance to be something resembling an Andrew Miller is Joe Kelly, and it's hard to have great expectations with Kelly, but he's got the stuff to do it and he can probably work multiple innings at times if need be (in the post-season). Kimbrel is that guy. Always been a high leverage performer. Power curveball to match Chapman's. In most of Kimbrel's games he had an other-worldly WHIP of something like 0.67 (17 games from 8/13 through 9/24, and 37% K-BB), with very few pitches to get through the inning (and then several blowups). With Pomeranz and Kelly, the Red Sox did match up against Cleveland in the late innings. Porcello and Price, unfortunately, had bad games. Cleveland scouted/analyzed them well. Buchholz did his part, and kept us in the game. I think they'll try to extend him for 4/60, now that they "fixed" his arm angle throwing from the stretch. How many pitches would Kimbrel have to throw to get through 2 2/3 innings? 100?
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