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Sale to BOS for Moncada, Kopech, Basabe, Diaz
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 3, 2017 18:53:05 GMT -5
My bad, The John Farrell Clear Eyes Full Hearts Can't Lose Appreciation Club® will remain silent and save ammo for the gameday threads.
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Post by tb2mosstd23 on Jan 19, 2017 20:20:04 GMT -5
Does anyone else think this deal and just the hiring of Dombrowski to begin with signals that Henry is going to be selling the team in the next 2-3 years? The Sox were set up to have an extremely solid team with a couple free agent signings and more importantly a team that was set up to be a great team filled with young talent for the foreseeable future. Prospects by and large typically fail to live up to the hype but the sox had a beautiful thing where they had young guys that already proved they can hang along with enough top end prospects that it was extremely likely that more impact players would emerge from the farm. They went and blew it on a bonafide ace and then depending on how you look at it a backend starter/bullpen guys. Dombrowski is the guy you see at a poker table that makes 500/wk but is up 2000k so when he makes a 500 dollar bet on pocket 2s hes thinking no big deal, not, this is an entire paycheck that i should be more careful with. I have no problem with the Sale trade if he hadn't traded away most of the farm system beforehand. There is absolutely no reason you make that kimbrel trade when you have a team with the payroll flexibility that the Red Sox have. There were free agents close to the same class that couldve been had a for a few million more than Kimbrel's salary (will never understand the Sox signing Uehara and not going harder after Miller couple years back). If come midseason your bullpen is lacking but you otherwise have the makings of a great team then by all means send out a decent prospect or two for a free agent to be reliever. You do not pay with premium prospects for a reliever (even an all star closer) that is going to make 24.5 million the next two years and you certainly don't continue to trade what most systems would consider top 5-top 10 prospects for relievers. I see too many people looking at these deals as though we should appreciate that we kept the young talent that is already here. Of course we were able to keep someone like our number 1 benintendi. Nobody else had moncada to deal. The way this team is being run right now is similar to the way a team like the A's is run in that once you get a team you think is capable of being a contender you ship out a couple top prospects to shore up any holes, compete for a year or two because you know you can't re-sign the young soon to be UFA and then at the first sign of decline you ship out what you can to restock the farm. Sorry about the length and bringing back up a story thats been beaten to death but just wanted to get my thoughts out on here. I feel like the Sox could have close to the same team talent this year's team has as well as have the depth in the system to fill any holes that may arise. Send devers, espinoza, margot and owens out for sale instead and you still have a farm system that many other teams would envy. You also have a rotation of sale,price,porcello, rodriguez, wright and bucholz. A bullpen that is lacking but a team with the payroll to take a flier on a few players and see who pans out along with the ability to sign one marquee closer and depth in the farm to keep this team stocked with impact players.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 19, 2017 21:28:38 GMT -5
In my opinion, 2018 should have been the year that everything came together. Things were accelerated because of the pending Ortiz retirement last year, and the incredible, incredible story that would have transpired if the moves done last year had resulted in a W.S. trophy. The way things were going the last few years were leading up to an incredible future, unfortunately without Ortiz. The moves the Cubs made last winter were the type of moves that the Sox would have been contemplating in the winter of '17. Espinosa, Kopech, Moncada, Swihart, Margot, were all rushed, or dealt, to facilitate the win now outlook, to make / justify the Prior, Kimbrel moves. If Prior had performed up to Dombrowski's expectations, would the Sox have had to deal for Sale? Sale is obviously an incredible pitcher. Pomeranz is not. Pomeranz is not a critical part of this team right now. Do you disagree? Would I rather have the above mentioned prospects, rather than Sale in 2017? Hell yeah!@ There were so many Sox players last year that had incredible years, statistically: Betts, Bradley, Ramirez, Leon, Wright, and Porcello. I don't doubt that they might be able to improve on those performances this year. I think they are all capable of doing it. Still, being reasonable makes me think that one or two of those players will regress back a bit this next year. I feel like the prospects that were dealt, would not be a surprise to have improved this next year. I like to believe that this year will be an incredible year, and that the Sox can win it all. I feel like the talent is definitely there. I believe, though, that the moves Dombrowski has made has boxed the Sox into a corner, and we are all on the edge of our seats to witness the results.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 19, 2017 21:33:44 GMT -5
In my opinion, 2018 should have been the year that everything came together. Things were accelerated because of the pending Ortiz retirement last year, and the incredible, incredible story that would have transpired if the moves done last year had resulted in a W.S. trophy. The way things were going the last few years were leading up to an incredible future, unfortunately without Ortiz. The moves the Cubs made last winter were the type of moves that the Sox would have been contemplating in the winter of '17. Espinosa, Kopech, Moncada, Swihart, Margot, were all rushed, or dealt, to facilitate the win now outlook, to make / justify the Prior, Kimbrel moves. If Prior had performed up to Dombrowski's expectations, would the Sox have had to deal for Sale? Sale is obviously an incredible pitcher. Pomeranz is not. Pomeranz is not a critical part of this team right now. Do you disagree? Would I rather have the above mentioned prospects, rather than Sale in 2017? Hell yeah!@ There were so many Sox players last year that had incredible years, statistically: Betts, Bradley, Ramirez, Leon, Wright, and Porcello. I don't doubt that they might be able to improve on those performances this year. I think they are all capable of doing it. Still, being reasonable makes me think that one or two of those players will regress back a bit this next year. I feel like the prospects that were dealt, would not be a surprise to have improved this next year. I like to believe that this year will be an incredible year, and that the Sox can win it all. I feel like the talent is definitely there. I believe, though, that the moves Dombrowski has made has boxed the Sox into a corner, and we are all on the edge of our seats to witness the results. You mean Pomeranz? For a few seconds I thought Dombrowski dealt Devers and Groome to acquire Mark Prior from the 2003 Cubs.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 19, 2017 21:39:22 GMT -5
I get the feeling that Pomeranz is going to be a younger, cheaper version of Bucholz. Capable, but totally subject to whether he's feeling great, and driven, or not.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 19, 2017 21:40:54 GMT -5
Sorry! Obviously meant Price
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Post by tb2mosstd23 on Jan 19, 2017 21:45:44 GMT -5
In my opinion, 2018 should have been the year that everything came together. Things were accelerated because of the pending Ortiz retirement last year, and the incredible, incredible story that would have transpired if the moves done last year had resulted in a W.S. trophy. The way things were going the last few years were leading up to an incredible future, unfortunately without Ortiz. The moves the Cubs made last winter were the type of moves that the Sox would have been contemplating in the winter of '17. Espinosa, Kopech, Moncada, Swihart, Margot, were all rushed, or dealt, to facilitate the win now outlook, to make / justify the Prior, Kimbrel moves. If Prior had performed up to Dombrowski's expectations, would the Sox have had to deal for Sale? Sale is obviously an incredible pitcher. Pomeranz is not. Pomeranz is not a critical part of this team right now. Do you disagree? Would I rather have the above mentioned prospects, rather than Sale in 2017? Hell yeah!@ There were so many Sox players last year that had incredible years, statistically: Betts, Bradley, Ramirez, Leon, Wright, and Porcello. I don't doubt that they might be able to improve on those performances this year. I think they are all capable of doing it. Still, being reasonable makes me think that one or two of those players will regress back a bit this next year. I feel like the prospects that were dealt, would not be a surprise to have improved this next year. I like to believe that this year will be an incredible year, and that the Sox can win it all. I feel like the talent is definitely there. I believe, though, that the moves Dombrowski has made has boxed the Sox into a corner, and we are all on the edge of our seats to witness the results. I think that everything could've been ready for this upcoming year while still being a very competitive team last year without gutting the farm on marginal upgrades or players that couldve been replaced by paying a slightly higher salary (kimbrel). They almost forced themselves to upgrade the rotation this year because they traded away so much of the long term potential that they need to make the most of the cheap young core they currently have. Its just frustrating to think that they could still have so many promising players on the farm despite trading away a large chunk to get Sale. I do think that Sale is needed on this team however. They have a number of talented pitchers on the team but none that I look at as my game 1 starter in the playoffs. Price should be and may change my mind yet but hes shown time and time and time again not to believe he is that pitcher.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 19, 2017 22:12:27 GMT -5
exactly
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Post by soxcentral on Feb 16, 2017 10:44:23 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 16, 2017 13:13:20 GMT -5
Actually, to the contrary, it makes quite clear that the White Sox were asking for him as the third player in addition to Moncada and Kopech, which I think was essentially the point being debated. It doesn't necessarily mean they still would have refused to include him if either Moncada or Kopech had been removed from the deal. (My assumption is that they would have included him in place of Moncada but not Kopech, but it's an assumption.)
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Post by tookme55 on Feb 16, 2017 17:42:07 GMT -5
Good catch on Devers. Although I do think DD is very high on him. He's not stupid. No matter what happens with Pablo, we will need a 3B in a near future. Our #1 option is gone, Moncada. He was not going to lose another possible replacement at 3B.
I also think being able to draft Groomes made losing Kopech little more palpable for the Sox. Also we were getting an ace type for three years and that was HUGE. Let's see where Groomes will be in 3 years.
I think our starting rotation is set as anyone else.
Price 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 E Rod 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, Wright 17, 18, 19, 20 Porcello 17, 18, 19 Sale 17, 18, 19 Drew P 17, 18
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Post by mandelbro on Feb 17, 2017 13:51:48 GMT -5
Good catch on Devers. Although I do think DD is very high on him. He's not stupid. No matter what happens with Pablo, we will need a 3B in a near future. Our #1 option is gone, Moncada. He was not going to lose another possible replacement at 3B. I don't know about that one.
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Post by tonyc on Mar 16, 2017 17:53:31 GMT -5
Good article on Kopech today. It's tempting to pull against guys traded away, but I'm pulling for him big time, even more after that read. Perhaps he becomes Clemens 2 and Moncada if he doesn't make contact becomes like Joe Morgan in Houston- speedy, draws walks, fields. Reading that article displayed his diligence to every aspect of physical health and development - and he'll obviously apply that to his delivery and learning pitches through his career. Reminds me of seeing Clemens during a game in the bullpen working on bouncing off the mound. If he remains healthy his ceiling is unlimited and he just may achieve his goals of HOF and 107mph. The beautiful girlfriend and his looks and interesting personae and all part of it.
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Post by tonyc on Mar 16, 2017 18:42:42 GMT -5
It's a bit oddball in our results oriented culture, but now that the sox have won- and I just prayed for one- if I had to choose between seeing them win one or more WS with Sale and co, vs being competitive with Kopech, Moncada and Espinosa, I think I'd pick the latter- just getting to see them grow and fantasize. And seeing the Norse God and Goddess girlfriend at the games. Sort of like when Spock in that wonderful episode where he fought for his mate said to the Vulcan winner: "you may find with time that wanting is better than having..it is not logical but often so."
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Post by tonyc on Mar 16, 2017 19:00:40 GMT -5
While the two sports are apples and oranges, I find myself far more interested in the Bruins winning a championship in several years. They are where the sox were a year or two ago with a great crop of young players. That sport still has many players who bust a gut for each other and the team, with an action level, I believe that is matchless and a hard cap so that pretty much everyone has to build by the draft. I had to debate over renewing my Sox package, but to quote another Star Trek espisode, after nearly 50 years of following them; the Romulan commander said "fear not Centurian, I am too much a creature of habit."
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 17, 2017 6:02:20 GMT -5
It's a bit oddball in our results oriented culture, but now that the sox have won- and I just prayed for one- if I had to choose between seeing them win one or more WS with Sale and co, vs being competitive with Kopech, Moncada and Espinosa, I think I'd pick the latter- just getting to see them grow and fantasize. And seeing the Norse God and Goddess girlfriend at the games. Sort of like when Spock in that wonderful episode where he fought for his mate said to the Vulcan winner: "you may find with time that wanting is better than having..it is not logical but often so." That article quoted Kopech as to saying, "he wants to throw the hardest pitch ever." It wouldn't surprise me if Kopech blows out his arm in 5 years if he keeps thinking that way. To his credit, he also said "the goal is to dominate games." I just can't take him seriously if he's focused on throwing that hard a lot just for the radar aspect. Kopech screams Tommy John surgery almost by definition. Hard throwing pitcher who also throws a lot of sliders. Sale also screams Tommy John by definition with his delivery and the velocity and sliders, but he's shown to be able to handle the work load consistently while Kopech has maybe pitched over 100 innings just once. As for the fantasy, that's all fantasy. We have no idea what Moncada is as a regular everyday ballplayer in the big leagues and Kopech is a injury risk waiting to happen without much track record to speak of. This trade was very low risk from the Sox side from my point of view. The health of Sale is a huge factor in determining this, but I have a feeling that he'll stay healthy at least through the next 3 controllable years at least.
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Post by grandsalami on May 2, 2017 22:04:08 GMT -5
is this considered a HOT TAKE?
Pedro MartinezVerified account @45pedromartinez 34m34 minutes ago More Chris Sale is already surpassing everything I've done
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 3, 2017 5:06:47 GMT -5
is this considered a HOT TAKE? Pedro MartinezVerified account @45pedromartinez 34m34 minutes ago More Chris Sale is already surpassing everything I've done Poor Pedro is becoming old and forgetting how good he was. Lol, I posted the reasons why on the gameday thread.
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rjp313jr
Veteran
Posts: 13,979
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Post by rjp313jr on May 3, 2017 6:51:42 GMT -5
Chris Sale is really really good.
^^^hot take
But seriously, one of Pedro's most endearing qualities is he's secure enough in his awesomeness and not blind to others greatness. He has no problems giving credit to others who "threaten" his status as top dog.
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Post by James Dunne on May 3, 2017 7:25:09 GMT -5
Chris Sale is really really good. ^^^hot take But seriously, one of Pedro's most endearing qualities is he's secure enough in his awesomeness and not blind to others greatness. He has no problems giving credit to others who "threaten" his status as top dog. Yes, that's a really good way to put it. So many ex-players seem to fear that the modern generation's accomplishments will undermine theirs. Pedro doesn't have that hold-up at all, and is always willing to give credit to excellence. Just another reason he's the greatest.
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Post by Oregon Norm on May 3, 2017 7:50:01 GMT -5
This isn't surprising. He was one of the happiest players, someone who was just having a lot of fun. Very gracious guy and humble. It was a great day when he came to Boston.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 3, 2017 13:35:55 GMT -5
Can we talk about why James decided to retweet the Spanish version of that tweet instead of the English one?
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Post by James Dunne on May 3, 2017 13:59:19 GMT -5
Can we talk about why James decided to retweet the Spanish version of that tweet instead of the English one? Well certainly not because I just like seeing the word "sobrepasando" in my feed...
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Post by ponch73 on Jun 16, 2017 23:34:11 GMT -5
Fun to revisit this thread after having the benefit of observing over 40% of the 2017 season. I was not crazy about DD's trade for Sale, but he's looking pretty sage right now. Moncada is struggling in AAA, Kopech is a K machine in AA, but his control still needs major improvement. And that Sale guy seems like he might be ok, after all.
Who among us would have thought that DD's worst trade of the offseason, by far, was Shaw + for Thornburg? Can you imagine a Red Sox corner infield of Shaw and Moreland, each with an OPS in the high .800's, for a total cost of under $7M? Think about this lineup:
Boegarts (.808 OPS) Moreland (.863 OPS) Betts (.867 OPS) Shaw (.901 OPS) Ramirez (.750 OPS) Bradley (.812 OPS) Pedroia (.750 OPS) Benintendi (.768 OPS) Leon/Vazquez (.704 OPS)
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 17, 2017 0:49:19 GMT -5
Shaw might have not been putting up .800 OPS numbers in Boston though. Happy for Shaw, but Shaw might have the better career in the NL.
Devers might make Shaw pretty forgettable in a year, while Thornburg might be one of the best arms in the bullpen.
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