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Post by telson13 on Apr 2, 2017 17:53:27 GMT -5
I never said he "couldn't," did I? I'm well aware of the Trea Turner rule. There's a reason the White Sox didn't ask for Groome. And you've proven my point for me...I said "opportunity." If you want to obsess over, and get hung up on, the broadest definition of "opportunity" possible, be my guest. Stop rewriting your history you said he could not trade those two and you were clearly wrong. Nice that you know the Trea Turner rule now, because when you first posted it you sure didn't. and who knows if they asked for Groome , they might have asked and the Sox said you can have Kopech. "Groome and Dalbec were drafted just last summer, he had no opportunity to trade them. Read more: forum.soxprospects.com/thread/3736/dd-running-sox?page=20#ixzz4d8SLWjzOKeep making up whatever you need to to feel better.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 2, 2017 17:56:09 GMT -5
It doesn't take a ton of talent to come in and decimate a historically great farm system to add to a team that has few financial limitations and an already great young core of players.
But at least we have the next three years to look forward to. I do pray that there's not a long term injury to one of the core players in the next three years because the rest of the farm system will then be gone.
After those three years, it will be very ugly though. But I might be dead by then, so who cares? That's how the world is run now. It'll be someone else's problem by then.
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Post by fan72 on Apr 2, 2017 17:59:46 GMT -5
Stop rewriting your history you said he could not trade those two and you were clearly wrong. Nice that you know the Trea Turner rule now, because when you first posted it you sure didn't. and who knows if they asked for Groome , they might have asked and the Sox said you can have Kopech. "Groome and Dalbec were drafted just last summer, he had no opportunity to trade them. Read more: forum.soxprospects.com/thread/3736/dd-running-sox?page=20#ixzz4d8SLWjzOKeep making up whatever you need to to feel better. What are you talking about they had the chance to trade them once the World Series ended and they had the opportunity.
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Post by fan72 on Apr 2, 2017 18:04:59 GMT -5
Most other teams are in the same boat, you can't have an allstarat every position, and I happen to like Travis and Hernandez. You've been spot on with your posts. It's not that others are "wrong" -- like the poster you are arguing with. His argument appears to look at if none of the questions do well then we won't do as well. There is reason why The Sox are projected to win their division and at least what I've seen from fangrpahs projected as the 2nd best AL team. It means they either have less questions or more strengths. IMO what you are dealing with here are many pessimistic fans that have seen so much go wrong especially during most of the Ben Cherrington era that they are projecting negativism to this team as well and nothing is going to change their minds.
Sure we could have nearly every starter have a sub-par year. Sure it's possible. But - I'm pretty sure nearly every team in the AL would love to have the red sox "uncertainty" problems. I wonder if this same negative narrative will continue over the next three years even if the Sox are very, very good. But as you say-- it is mind-boggling to read as much negativity for a team projected to be good for several years.
I guess that is the life of the Red Sox fan, expect the worst.
I agree with you on everything you just said. My whole point of doing this is there total negativity and how they put down other posters who disagree. Mainly talking about Thursty, and Fenway the Hardway.
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Post by telson13 on Apr 2, 2017 18:22:53 GMT -5
I reserve the right to disagree. I don't recall being snarky at all about it. I also didn't complain about it. If you're so concerned with decorum, have some integrity and hold yourself to the standards you demand of others. The "well, he started it" rationale doesn't suffice. Actually I do agree you have the right to disagree and I do agree you are respectful to other posters. I thought I was responding to Fenway the hard way when I made the comment. my rationale also was not he started it. "Feeding you the same medicine..." is the equivalent of "he started it." You converted my tag to his in your head and reacted. This is the same sort of instance as the draft pick trade rule. You responded without actually *reading*. And you converted "no opportunity" into "couldn't." Idk, maybe you needed to be "right" by educating me on a rule I've posted about elsewhere, months ago. Either way, you're fixing on details and missing the opportunity for discussion. I've said it before: I think the sweet spot lies between DD and Cherington. I didn't care for Cherington's big-league talent evaluation, but I loved his patient approach. I don't like DD's team-building (dismantling) approach, but I like his ability to evaluate MLB talent. I think you're getting hung up on hyper-literal interpretations. Fenway's comment was tongue-in-cheek exaggeration of a real concern: trading future wins and salary/roster flexibility for a slight improvement in the present. You fixed on "80%" and missed the point. To me, the current Sox situation is like two friends. One buys a car with a fat down payment and a loan he is going to struggle to pay off, but it's new and fun and he wants to go for a drive. When his buddy asks what he's going to do once the warranty is up and something breaks, the owner gets pissed about his friend's "negativity." People are (rightfully) excited about the current team, but that's no more unfounded optimism than the concern for the bill coming due is unfounded negativism.
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Post by fan72 on Apr 2, 2017 18:32:44 GMT -5
Again saying they had no opportunity to trade them , means they had no opportunity to trade them. All of Fenways responses are negative with no substance, I am responding to that negativity and how he treats posters that disagree with him.
I do agree with most of what you say about the sox , DD and Ben, I disagree with the total negativity of some posters, you can worry about the future and realize the present is very good and they have three years to rebuild the farm system. One skill DD has definitely shown is the ability to rebuild.
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Post by telson13 on Apr 2, 2017 18:33:41 GMT -5
What are you talking about they had the chance to trade them once the World Series ended and they had the opportunity. Right, and they have the "opportunity" to trade Betts for Yangervis Solarte. You're using a very hyper-literal interpretation of the word. I didn't intend it in that way, so maybe it wasn't the best choice of words on my part. Regardless, it's a minor side argument that detracts from the overall discussion.
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Post by fan72 on Apr 2, 2017 18:36:29 GMT -5
One thing not mentioned at all is the sox lack of developing pitching. They were never going to win anything without making moves, and pitching costs prospects and money.
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Post by fan72 on Apr 2, 2017 18:40:15 GMT -5
What are you talking about they had the chance to trade them once the World Series ended and they had the opportunity. Right, and they have the "opportunity" to trade Betts for Yangervis Solarte. You're using a very hyper-literal interpretation of the word. I didn't intend it in that way, so maybe it wasn't the best choice of words on my part. Regardless, it's a minor side argument that detracts from the overall discussion. you might have meant it differently then it was said, I perceived it differently.
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Post by telson13 on Apr 2, 2017 18:54:57 GMT -5
Again saying they had no opportunity to trade them , means they had no opportunity to trade them. All of Fenways responses are negative with no substance, I am responding to that negativity and how he treats posters that disagree with him. I do agree with most of what you say about the sox , DD and Ben, I disagree with the total negativity of some posters, you can worry about the future and realize the present is very good and they have three years to rebuild the farm system. One skill DD has definitely shown is the ability to rebuild. I've read, literally, hundreds of Fenway's posts. I think you're extrapolating a small experience into a picture of a poster who has more complex views on things than you're giving him credit for. I suggest a larger sample size before you draw conclusions. Like I said, re: "no opportunity," or "80%," or whatever. If you get into hyperliteral interpretation, you're going to end up in nitpicking arguments that don't get your point across Taking a step back, it sounds like you and I have maybe more similar perception of the current state of things than it might've seemed at first. I'm less impressed with Dombrowski's track record, particularly with team-building, but I do trust his ability to evaluate MLB talent, which I think will be crucial to extending any run they do have. I think the underlying disagreement seems to be that you and others *trust* Dombrowski, so you see these moves as part of a grand plan, and you think he'll sort it all out. I, and a number of other posters, are skeptical of DD, and aren't convinced that he'll be able to adapt his approach to keep the team successful.
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Post by jmei on Apr 2, 2017 18:58:33 GMT -5
Please cut out the personal stuff. I am putting a temporary lock on this thread for 24 hours in hopes that when it opens again, we can move on from the nonsense. Thanks.
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Post by jmei on Apr 8, 2017 9:43:35 GMT -5
It ended up being more than 24 hours (mea culpa; I totally forgot about it), but I'm re-opening this thread. Reminder: please refrain from personal attacks on other posters. I'd also like to request that folks steer clear of repeating discussions that have already run their course. For instance, unless there are new material developments, there's really no need to go back and discuss past trades that have been discussed a million times already. Thanks.
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Apr 8, 2017 13:01:43 GMT -5
Again saying they had no opportunity to trade them , means they had no opportunity to trade them. All of Fenways responses are negative with no substance, I am responding to that negativity and how he treats posters that disagree with him. I do agree with most of what you say about the sox , DD and Ben, I disagree with the total negativity of some posters, you can worry about the future and realize the present is very good and they have three years to rebuild the farm system. One skill DD has definitely shown is the ability to rebuild. After 2019 there may be a bridge year two or even possible three before draft picks made now can replenish the system but for some to think we are doomed beyond all repair after that season is absurd. It's as if some believe that: 1. players cannot be traded, 2. free agents can't be signed, 3. draft picks will not be made during the next few seasons 4. are assuming that our farm system is completely barren now 5. International free agents cannot be signed Even if things don't break right we should still have a good team in 2020 (that's all hind-site). A possible problem during these potential bridge seasons is that we might not be able to fill in some of the smaller gaps that a deeper farm could fill and we remain competitive without being a real threat to win in all, oh what potential dire straits, the ship is lost. We still have 6 years of Beintendi, Travis could be ready by seasons end, Devers is likely around 2 years away and looks to be a future #3 or #4 type hitter, Swihart, Groome have at least 6 years of control and there are others to. I think Marco Hernandez We are an American league favorite to be in the World Series now and likely for the next 2 seasons
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Post by fan72 on Apr 8, 2017 13:10:35 GMT -5
Again saying they had no opportunity to trade them , means they had no opportunity to trade them. All of Fenways responses are negative with no substance, I am responding to that negativity and how he treats posters that disagree with him. I do agree with most of what you say about the sox , DD and Ben, I disagree with the total negativity of some posters, you can worry about the future and realize the present is very good and they have three years to rebuild the farm system. One skill DD has definitely shown is the ability to rebuild. After 2019 there may be a bridge year two or even possible three before draft picks made now can replenish the system but for some to think we are doomed beyond all repair after that season is absurd. It's as if some believe that: 1. players cannot be traded, 2. free agents can't be signed, 3. draft picks will not be made during the next few seasons 4. are assuming that our farm system is completely barren now 5. International free agents cannot be signed Even if things don't break right we should still have a good team in 2020 (that's all hind-site). A possible problem during these potential bridge seasons is that we might not be able to fill in some of the smaller gaps that a deeper farm could fill and we remain competitive without being a real threat to win in all, oh what potential dire straits, the ship is lost. We still have 6 years of Beintendi, Travis could be ready by seasons end, Devers is likely around 2 years away and looks to be a future #3 or #4 type hitter, Swihart, Groome have at least 6 years of control and there are others to. I think Marco Hernandez We are an American league favorite to be in the World Series now and likely for the next 2 seasons Agree 100% with this.
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Post by Guidas on Apr 8, 2017 16:00:51 GMT -5
Again saying they had no opportunity to trade them , means they had no opportunity to trade them. All of Fenways responses are negative with no substance, I am responding to that negativity and how he treats posters that disagree with him. I do agree with most of what you say about the sox , DD and Ben, I disagree with the total negativity of some posters, you can worry about the future and realize the present is very good and they have three years to rebuild the farm system. One skill DD has definitely shown is the ability to rebuild. After 2019 there may be a bridge year two or even possible three before draft picks made now can replenish the system but for some to think we are doomed beyond all repair after that season is absurd. It's as if some believe that: 1. players cannot be traded, 2. free agents can't be signed, 3. draft picks will not be made during the next few seasons 4. are assuming that our farm system is completely barren now 5. International free agents cannot be signed Even if things don't break right we should still have a good team in 2020 (that's all hind-site). A possible problem during these potential bridge seasons is that we might not be able to fill in some of the smaller gaps that a deeper farm could fill and we remain competitive without being a real threat to win in all, oh what potential dire straits, the ship is lost. We still have 6 years of Beintendi, Travis could be ready by seasons end, Devers is likely around 2 years away and looks to be a future #3 or #4 type hitter, Swihart, Groome have at least 6 years of control and there are others to. I think Marco Hernandez We are an American league favorite to be in the World Series now and likely for the next 2 seasons Actually, I think that's Cleveland. No doubt the Sox are good on paper - give or take a hole or two, but let's remember that: As much promise as Devers has (and I love him) he, and much more so Travis and Groome are no sure thing. There will be extensions and free agent signings and the team will likely be competitive after 2019, but make no mistake they've put a lot of eggs in this basket, including trading the likes of Espinosa, Kopech and Margot.
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Post by soxjim on Apr 9, 2017 9:24:13 GMT -5
Actually, I think that's Cleveland. No doubt the Sox are good on paper - give or take a hole or two, but let's remember that: As much promise as Devers has (and I love him) he, and much more so Travis and Groome are no sure thing. There will be extensions and free agent signings and the team will likely be competitive after 2019, but make no mistake they've put a lot of eggs in this basket, including trading the likes of Espinosa, Kopech and Margot.
Are Espionosa and Kopech sure things?
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Post by Guidas on Apr 10, 2017 16:17:47 GMT -5
Actually, I think that's Cleveland. No doubt the Sox are good on paper - give or take a hole or two, but let's remember that: As much promise as Devers has (and I love him) he, and much more so Travis and Groome are no sure thing. There will be extensions and free agent signings and the team will likely be competitive after 2019, but make no mistake they've put a lot of eggs in this basket, including trading the likes of Espinosa, Kopech and Margot.
Are Espionosa and Kopech sure things? Nope. But is Pomeranz? I was all for the Sale deal. Not so much the other two, esp when Sox were offered a do-over for Pomeranz. Also, so many people talk about guys like Travis and Groome like they are sure things - that was the intent of the caution/caveat.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 10, 2017 16:51:14 GMT -5
If any player is a sure thing, their value would be 100 times more than it was when they were traded. Nothing is a sure thing.
Devers and Groome are as valuable as any other top 30 prospects. Devers has a great profile among prospects - a hitter with power who makes good contact and doesn't have strikeout issues. Those usually work out more than ones with too much swing and miss and who is a butcher in the field.
Groome has a lot of room to gain more value because of his high ceiling and his age. But of course, pitchers.
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Post by soxjim on Apr 10, 2017 20:23:45 GMT -5
Are Espionosa and Kopech sure things? Nope. But is Pomeranz? I was all for the Sale deal. Not so much the other two, esp when Sox were offered a do-over for Pomeranz. Also, so many people talk about guys like Travis and Groome like they are sure things - that was the intent of the caution/caveat. Yes Pomeranz is - he's in the pros. And last year he had a stretch in which we needed him most - I'm not sure we make the playoffs without him. If you recall the Red Sox bullpen was collapsing and he had several very good starts in a row.. Pomeranz helped us get into the playoffs. That performance made him "a sure thing" because last year "he was" during the stretch when we needed him badly.
I am not going to forget how terrific the Sox were near the end before the Kimbrel collapse. And Pomz was a part of that success.
Also as you previously brought up
"but make no mistake they've put a lot of eggs in this basket, including trading the likes of Espinosa, Kopech and Margot."
This makes it sound like Kopech and Espinosa are sure things. They aren't.
I just read things on here about how the Red Sox were going to be this dynasty. I say noooo -- our minor league pitching stunk other that low tier minor league ball. No prime starters were coming up soon. How long before Kopech and Espinosa would be number 1/2 starters - IF they even make it? We know we heard "he's Pedro . . . "
And then after the trade you hear how this pro team that they aren't;' that good. -- "They are tenuous at best" type of a comment while we are picked 2nd overall in the AL by Fangraphs? -- You can shake your head all you want about Travis and Groome.
I shake my head the other way and am a bit stunned of what I feel is over-exuberance of prospects while downplaying how good this team can be for the next several years. So I'm right back at ya with all the talk of dynasty and how you seem to put guys like Kopech and Espinoza on a pedestal.
Tell me that you don't think DD has the smarts to make some tough trades going forward - I'll yield somewhat.
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Post by Coreno on Apr 10, 2017 22:26:42 GMT -5
Nobody is a sure thing. Ever.
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Post by soxjim on Apr 10, 2017 23:21:08 GMT -5
Nobody is a sure thing. Ever. it's all relative. For example it is a sure thing Mookie will remain a pro this year. it's a sure thing that Espinoza will not be playing in the show this year. That's the difference between props and prospects. Only injuries can hold back the talented pro. After the season was over- Pomeranz performed like a sure thing in that he helped Red Sox get into the playoffs.
That was a big reason why DD got him, right? He wanted a mlb player who could help him get to the playoffs.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 10, 2017 23:27:40 GMT -5
So by that standard, any minor leaguers are just question marks and all major leaguers who help a team are worth more than that minor leaguer, right? Your argument is entirely based on players as types and not on their individual skills and values.
What's funny is you're drawing this fake line between "sure thing" and "not a sure thing" but also treating it as a surety that Pomeranz put the Red Sox in the playoffs when they otherwise wouldn't have made it. They finished seven games ahead of the top non-playoff team and four games ahead of the wild card. Pomeranz was 3-5 with a 4.59 ERA in 13 starts.
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Post by telson13 on Apr 10, 2017 23:34:24 GMT -5
Nobody is a sure thing. Ever. Exactly. It's all playing the odds. Health, unforeseen circumstance, mentality, etc. Some players are better bets than others, depending on position, health history, performance history, etc. What really gets me is the whole "you don't need All-Stars at every position" argument. Of course not...which is why even if Kopech or Espinoza doesn't completely pan out, they would still provide a ton of value as 4/5 starters. That's a savings of probably $20M annually that can be put towards an All-Star or depth elsewhere. There's safety in numbers, and having cheap young depth makes extending the low-risk players like Betts, Bogaerts, etc possible (or signing big-name FAs). Injuries and poor performance happen...even the best players can't be counted on 100%. Teams run into trouble when they're short on contingency plans...not just bench depth, but system depth.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Apr 10, 2017 23:47:28 GMT -5
I'm guessing it was DD that started passing around the flu.
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Post by telluricrook on Apr 11, 2017 0:08:00 GMT -5
Did he not want to keep Koji? I was really sad to see him leave. I knew that he still has alot left. I just love his competitiveness and the enthusiasm he still has at his age and the Red Sox could still use his services smh.
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