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Koji & Tazawa leaving Sox
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Post by ikonos on Dec 16, 2016 9:20:53 GMT -5
I have not been following this off season as closely but given Koji and Tazawa cheap signings elsewhere compared to other reliever signings on the FA market, why did the Sox not attempt to (able to) keep atleast one of them? They have been able to pitch in BOS environment and we have had trouble filling the last couple bullpen slots with good quality relievers. What gives? Did the new FO not value them as much as the prior FO did? Or are they completely washed out? Interested in hearing your perspectives.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 16, 2016 10:43:45 GMT -5
Koji, as much as I love him, is a zillion years old and has dealt with injury the past two years. Maybe you miss out on one last good season by letting him walk but I think it's as good a time as any to part ways.
Tazawa is a guy who's been great in flashes but pretty average overall. I know people think he's been overworked, while I've argued that his usage really isn't that out of line with your standard 7th-8th inning guy. It does seem like he's a guy who could benefit from a little more creativity in usage (longer outings, fewer games?), but MLB managers in general and John Farrell in particular don't do creativity in reliever usage, so he's probably not a great fit here.
Honestly, it would be kind of interesting if some rebuilding team tried Tazawa as a starter again. He's shown good command and he doesn't suffer from platoon issues, which are things you want in a starter. It's pretty questionable if he could handle the workload, but he also can't really handle the workload of a reliever, so why not give it a try?
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Post by bluechip on Dec 16, 2016 10:44:40 GMT -5
I have not been following this off season as closely but given Koji and Tazawa cheap signings elsewhere compared to other reliever signings on the FA market, why did the Sox not attempt to (able to) keep atleast one of them? They have been able to pitch in BOS environment and we have had trouble filling the last couple bullpen slots with good quality relievers. What gives? Did the new FO not value them as much as the prior FO did? Or are they completely washed out? Interested in hearing your perspectives. Not enough money available. The Red Sox are trying to get under the 195 million dollar tax threshold. They traded for Thornton who is making much less. They will use Kelly in the 8th and Kimbrel in the 9th. They will use Buchholz out of the pen (or trade him to get under The tax threshold).
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Post by Guidas on Dec 16, 2016 10:47:05 GMT -5
I will miss them both. As fenwaythehardway said, Koji's age made his situation a little more fluid. Poor Tazawa, Farrell absolutely abused him the last two years in particular. It was textbook treatment straight from the Joe Torre School of Reliever Destruction. I hope he is able to rebound (preferably with anyone outside the AL East).
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Post by mgoetze on Dec 16, 2016 10:57:23 GMT -5
Have you considered that Tazawa might have preferred to change teams? He was definitely unhappy with the way Farrell used him, and he might get a chance to close in Miami, which would set him up much better for a second contract than an uncertain role on the team with Trader Dave and his incessant addiction to new shiny pitchers.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 16, 2016 11:03:13 GMT -5
Honestly, it would be kind of interesting if some rebuilding team tried Tazawa as a starter again. He's shown good command and he doesn't suffer from platoon issues, which are things you want in a starter. It's pretty questionable if he could handle the workload, but he also can't really handle the workload of a reliever, so why not give it a try? And Tazawa himself has expressed a preference for starting. As does, I assume, every pitcher who saw what Ian Kennedy got paid last year. I disagree with you about the overworked bit, though. While his overall innings totals haven't been high, for four straight seasons he was pushed hard in the first half, followed a period of ineffectiveness, followed hence by comments from Farrell himself saying that Tazawa was a bit gassed and that he needed to lean on him less. I'm not sure why you'd measure whether he's overworked relative to the league - a pitcher being pushed beyond his durability as an individual means he's being overworked. Every pitcher is different and it's the manager's job to identify that accordingly. Not everyone is Jesse Orosco or Eddie Guardado. Koji's 2013 was such a wonderful burst of energy and excitement. I remember thinking at the time it was a sensible bullpen depth signing, but I had no idea he would dominate like that.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 16, 2016 11:06:07 GMT -5
I will miss them both. As fenwaythehardway said, Koji's age made his situation a little more fluid. Poor Tazawa, Farrell absolutely abused him the last two years in particular. It was textbook treatment straight from the Joe Torre School of Reliever Destruction. I hope he is able to rebound (preferably with anyone outside the AL East). I'm fine with that style of reliever management as long as you're doing it with a reliever who can continue to be effective despite heavy usage. Tazawa is, in anything, a guy who's more susceptible to wearing down than your average reliever.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 16, 2016 11:21:18 GMT -5
I will miss them both. As fenwaythehardway said, Koji's age made his situation a little more fluid. Poor Tazawa, Farrell absolutely abused him the last two years in particular. It was textbook treatment straight from the Joe Torre School of Reliever Destruction. I hope he is able to rebound (preferably with anyone outside the AL East). I'm fine with that style of reliever management as long as you're doing it with a reliever who can continue to be effective despite heavy usage. Tazawa is, in anything, a guy who's more susceptible to wearing down than your average reliever. I think you are missing the point on how Tazawa wore down. He was not worn down by being used over the course of a season. He was worn down by being used extremely heavily for stretches without being given the opportunity to recover. Most/all relievers need time to recover. I'm not sure than you can say that the "average" reliever would not have worn down given the abuse inflicted upon him for long stretches. If there is an analysis of reliever recovery time, is live to read it. May be it would show Tazawa needed more time than most.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 16, 2016 11:21:19 GMT -5
I disagree with you about the overworked bit, though. While his overall innings totals haven't been high, for four straight seasons he was pushed hard in the first half, followed a period of ineffectiveness, followed hence by comments from Farrell himself saying that Tazawa was a bit gassed and that he needed to lean on him less. I'm not sure why you'd measure whether he's overworked relative to the league - a pitcher being pushed beyond his durability as an individual means he's being overworked. Every pitcher is different and it's the manager's job to identify that accordingly. Not everyone is Jesse Orosco or Eddie Guardado. I actually agree with this but at the same time, the reality of modern bullpens is the a guy like Tazawa is going to get used a lot. He's not quite good enough to get one of the anointed roles where he only pitches in certain innings with a lead, but he is good enough that the manager is going to want to choose him from the remaining non closer/setup/specialist relievers in a lot of relatively close games.
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Post by manfred on Dec 16, 2016 11:45:09 GMT -5
I have not been following this off season as closely but given Koji and Tazawa cheap signings elsewhere compared to other reliever signings on the FA market, why did the Sox not attempt to (able to) keep atleast one of them? They have been able to pitch in BOS environment and we have had trouble filling the last couple bullpen slots with good quality relievers. What gives? Did the new FO not value them as much as the prior FO did? Or are they completely washed out? Interested in hearing your perspectives. My understanding is they made an offer to Koji but it was mostly a gesture. These guys have been good, Koji great, and the Sox and they benefited mutually. This was a good time to part for all involved.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 16, 2016 12:29:23 GMT -5
I was surprised that Taz got the money he did from Miami and I would have been squeamish about the RS giving him the same contract. Sentimentality aside - and I liked him as much as anyone - I don't see how a team can count on him to be a key part of a decent BP at this point. His durability and effectiveness are both very much in question.
But I was a bit baffled by the indifference they displayed about letting Koji walk. He can still be a very effective RP in a limited number of appearances. I would have matched the Cubs' offer. I think it would have been good to have him for 40-45 high-leverage 6th and 7th inning appearances.
As far as wanting to be under the tax threshold, moving CB will solve that problem and even put them in a position to take on a bit more salary.
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Post by bluechip on Dec 16, 2016 13:11:51 GMT -5
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 16, 2016 13:28:06 GMT -5
6m is too much for the Sox to pay Koji this year in their current situation.
Who would you like Tazawa to replace in the current bullpen mix?
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Post by sox fan in nc on Dec 16, 2016 14:21:32 GMT -5
I believe much of Taz's issues came from being warmed up to frequently.
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Post by Guidas on Dec 16, 2016 16:11:56 GMT -5
I'm fine with that style of reliever management as long as you're doing it with a reliever who can continue to be effective despite heavy usage. Tazawa is, in anything, a guy who's more susceptible to wearing down than your average reliever. I think you are missing the point on how Tazawa wore down. He was not worn down by being used over the course of a season. He was worn down by being used extremely heavily for stretches without being given the opportunity to recover. Most/all relievers need time to recover. I'm not sure than you can say that the "average" reliever would not have worn down given the abuse inflicted upon him for long stretches. If there is an analysis of reliever recovery time, is live to read it. May be it would show Tazawa needed more time than most. Yup. And worn down early in the season over the last two years, too.
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Post by p23w on Dec 16, 2016 19:46:29 GMT -5
I don't think Chapman gets it. In the playoffs, particularly the WS you have to expect the manager goes with his best. The big Unit closed out game #7 (getting 4 outs) after throwing 104 pitches the previous day. Note: Chapman managed 58 innings despite being suspended for 30 days at the start of the 2016 season. Tazawa pitched a total of 49 innings in 2016. Tazawa simply cannot answer the bell in a manner to benefit a team over the course of an entire season, unless said team has a rotation full of starters that go 6+ innings each time out.
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Post by Coreno on Dec 17, 2016 0:13:07 GMT -5
Taz had 6 less appearances than Chapman. He got a 13 appearance head start while Chapman was suspended. However, he missed most of July and was used sparingly in September. In 2013, Tazawa made 71 appearances and threw 68.1 innings, both of which are just above the pro-rated 162 game average for Chapman's season this year. He is over 30 now and his innings totals have been declining since then, so who knows how durable he will continue to be... but let's not act like he's never been capable to pitch through a full season. I'm glad they decided to move on from him, but I wish him luck in Miami.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 17, 2016 8:06:28 GMT -5
I was surprised that Taz got the money he did from Miami and I would have been squeamish about the RS giving him the same contract. Sentimentality aside - and I liked him as much as anyone - I don't see how a team can count on him to be a key part of a decent BP at this point. His durability and effectiveness are both very much in question. But I was a bit baffled by the indifference they displayed about letting Koji walk. He can still be a very effective RP in a limited number of appearances. I would have matched the Cubs' offer. I think it would have been good to have him for 40-45 high-leverage 6th and 7th inning appearances. As far as wanting to be under the tax threshold, moving CB will solve that problem and even put them in a position to take on a bit more salary. One of the reporters said they had an offer on the table for Koji before the Thornburg trade. Supposedly Koji at the time wasn't sure what he wanted to do and told the Sox he would think about it but that if they found a different avenue they should pursue it. After the trade, the offer was withdrawn.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 17, 2016 17:00:51 GMT -5
I don't think Chapman gets it. It was him second-guessing his manager that led you to that conclusion? I actually agree with this but at the same time, the reality of modern bullpens is the a guy like Tazawa is going to get used a lot. He's not quite good enough to get one of the anointed roles where he only pitches in certain innings with a lead, but he is good enough that the manager is going to want to choose him from the remaining non closer/setup/specialist relievers in a lot of relatively close games. He was really good in 2013 and 2014, excellent before hitting the wall hard ( here's his line while pitching in 29 of the team's first 61 games) in 2015, and very good again early in 2016. I tend to agree with the assessment that, in order to be a useful bullpen piece, a guy needs to be either very durable or very good. I think we mostly just disagree on whether Tazawa qualifies as the latter.
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Post by p23w on Dec 17, 2016 17:33:59 GMT -5
I don't think Chapman gets it. It was him second-guessing his manager that led you to that conclusion? It was the World Series. Chapman has been groomed as a one inning specialist over his entire career (none of it in the post season). He was outside his comfort zone. Will be interesting to see Chapman's reaction, the first time Girardi sends him out for a second inning. Pitchers question managers decision making all the time. It usually gets resolved face to face in the managers office. Going public with his disagreement or displeasure, following a world series championship is bad form, IMO.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,835
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Post by TearsIn04 on Dec 17, 2016 21:59:29 GMT -5
I was surprised that Taz got the money he did from Miami and I would have been squeamish about the RS giving him the same contract. Sentimentality aside - and I liked him as much as anyone - I don't see how a team can count on him to be a key part of a decent BP at this point. His durability and effectiveness are both very much in question. But I was a bit baffled by the indifference they displayed about letting Koji walk. He can still be a very effective RP in a limited number of appearances. I would have matched the Cubs' offer. I think it would have been good to have him for 40-45 high-leverage 6th and 7th inning appearances. As far as wanting to be under the tax threshold, moving CB will solve that problem and even put them in a position to take on a bit more salary. One of the reporters said they had an offer on the table for Koji before the Thornburg trade. Supposedly Koji at the time wasn't sure what he wanted to do and told the Sox he would think about it but that if they found a different avenue they should pursue it. After the trade, the offer was withdrawn. D-Dom disclosed that at the Sale presser. It just seems to me that given how you never have enough reliable pen guys, they should have matched the Cubbies' offer. With Ziegler gone, they've lost three RP they had at the end of the season, including two that are still reasonably effective. We have a closer who was erratic last year, an eighth inning guy who doesn't have a long body of work showing he's a top guy, and not a lot of depth behind those two.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 17, 2016 22:25:27 GMT -5
It was him second-guessing his manager that led you to that conclusion? It was the World Series. Chapman has been groomed as a one inning specialist over his entire career (none of it in the post season). He was outside his comfort zone. Will be interesting to see Chapman's reaction, the first time Girardi sends him out for a second inning. Pitchers question managers decision making all the time. It usually gets resolved face to face in the managers office. Going public with his disagreement or displeasure, following a world series championship is bad form, IMO. Yeah, it's obviously a dumb comment. It just seems pretty benign when coming from someone who called domestic assault a learning experience.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 18, 2016 2:04:42 GMT -5
One of the reporters said they had an offer on the table for Koji before the Thornburg trade. Supposedly Koji at the time wasn't sure what he wanted to do and told the Sox he would think about it but that if they found a different avenue they should pursue it. After the trade, the offer was withdrawn. D-Dom disclosed that at the Sale presser. It just seems to me that given how you never have enough reliable pen guys, they should have matched the Cubbies' offer. With Ziegler gone, they've lost three RP they had at the end of the season, including two that are still reasonably effective. We have a closer who was erratic last year, an eighth inning guy who doesn't have a long body of work showing he's a top guy, and not a lot of depth behind those two. The pen has 7 guys with no options, 8 if you include Buchholz. Love Koji but at 42 he's a risk that isn't worth losing one of the other guys or going back over the cap for.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Dec 18, 2016 14:45:38 GMT -5
Honestly, it would be kind of interesting if some rebuilding team tried Tazawa as a starter again. He's shown good command and he doesn't suffer from platoon issues, which are things you want in a starter. It's pretty questionable if he could handle the workload, but he also can't really handle the workload of a reliever, so why not give it a try? And Tazawa himself has expressed a preference for starting. As does, I assume, every pitcher who saw what Ian Kennedy got paid last year. I disagree with you about the overworked bit, though. While his overall innings totals haven't been high, for four straight seasons he was pushed hard in the first half, followed a period of ineffectiveness, followed hence by comments from Farrell himself saying that Tazawa was a bit gassed and that he needed to lean on him less. I'm not sure why you'd measure whether he's overworked relative to the league - a pitcher being pushed beyond his durability as an individual means he's being overworked. Every pitcher is different and it's the manager's job to identify that accordingly. Not everyone is Jesse Orosco or Eddie Guardado. Koji's 2013 was such a wonderful burst of energy and excitement. I remember thinking at the time it was a sensible bullpen depth signing, but I had no idea he would dominate like that. At 2/$12M, at least two teams had to be bidding on him as a possible starter. He's a steal in that role at that price. If there's an X% chance (30%?) he's more valuable as a starter than as a reliever, his value is (100-x) * value as a reliever + (x) * value as a starter, and the deal makes sense.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Dec 18, 2016 18:47:11 GMT -5
Brad Ziegler signed with Miami for 2/16, so Tazawa ain't closing anytime soon at least.
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