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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 31, 2016 22:18:19 GMT -5
From the tweets I've seen, the difference in consideration for people like Bonds and Clemens vs people like Manny is the time sequence. Bonds and Clemens were users before PEDS were banned whereas Manny was a user after the bans.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 1, 2017 0:55:54 GMT -5
In fairness if Manny, Arod, and Braun don't make the HOF, it will be because of ignorance and stupidity more than anything.
They all knew that MLB was testing, and they still got caught. Arod's case was a little different but he still was caught.
Pete Rose was banned for the same reason, ignorance and stupidity. So if baseball wants to ban these players from the HOF, then so be it.
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Post by bigpupp on Jan 1, 2017 1:19:12 GMT -5
I've got no problems with a failed test keeping someone out of the HOF (even though I wouldn't consider that disqualifying personally). It's the rumors and innuendo that are keeping people out that I have a problem with.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 1, 2017 2:01:51 GMT -5
I've got no problems with a failed test keeping someone out of the HOF (even though I wouldn't consider that disqualifying personally). It's the rumors and innuendo that are keeping people out that I have a problem with. Every test besides that 2003 test. That one was complete hot garabage I will say. It was supposed to be kept classified and it leaked out. I'm not even saying this to defend Ortiz, I'm saying it because it wasn't right to begin with.
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Post by bigpupp on Jan 1, 2017 2:05:46 GMT -5
I've got no problems with a failed test keeping someone out of the HOF (even though I wouldn't consider that disqualifying personally). It's the rumors and innuendo that are keeping people out that I have a problem with. Every test besides that 2003 test. That one was complete hot garabage I will say. It was supposed to be kept classified and it leaked out. I'm not even saying this to defend Ortiz, I'm saying it because it wasn't right to begin with. Right. I should have said received a suspension, but it's no different. The results of the 2003 tests have not been released...Only rumored.
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Post by FreeJBJ on Jan 1, 2017 11:42:53 GMT -5
Manny didn't test positive until he was on the Dodgers. He was a Hall of Famer well before then. The "he was a HOFer before he started using" argument gets made for Bonds all the time and it should apply to Manny too.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 1, 2017 13:39:05 GMT -5
Manny was caught multiple times. If the writers want to keep him out, it's understandable. I don't know if Manny was using in Boston or not but since he was caught multiple times, I would say more likely than not that he was using here in Boston too but there's no way of proving that. This is the slippery slope the writers have to deal with.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 1, 2017 17:16:00 GMT -5
Manny didn't test positive until he was on the Dodgers. He was a Hall of Famer well before then. The "he was a HOFer before he started using" argument gets made for Bonds all the time and it should apply to Manny too. Barry Bonds also has roughly 100 more career WAR than Manny. It depends on how voters weigh PED in their evaluations but unless you consider it completely disqualifying, it's hard to deduct enough from Bond's career to make him not a HOFer. That's not the case with Manny. Knock him back by 15-20% and he's into pretty marginal territory.
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Post by mannofsteele on Jan 1, 2017 17:53:52 GMT -5
The argument for Vlad should really draw a direct lane in the sand to Dawson. If you consider peak years, I'd take Vlad over him at any point. Tim Raines should have been in nearly a decade ago. Bagwell was Votto with more plus power before Votto. Semantics be damned, Bonds, Clemens, Pudge, Ramirez, are hall of famers in their own Cooperstown wing. I have no statistics to back myself up, but Raines was the best at getting on base in the early to mid 90's of anyone but Henderson. The eye test goes a long way for me.
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Post by FreeJBJ on Jan 1, 2017 19:50:03 GMT -5
Manny didn't test positive until he was on the Dodgers. He was a Hall of Famer well before then. The "he was a HOFer before he started using" argument gets made for Bonds all the time and it should apply to Manny too. Barry Bonds also has roughly 100 more career WAR than Manny. It depends on how voters weigh PED in their evaluations but unless you consider it completely disqualifying, it's hard to deduct enough from Bond's career to make him not a HOFer. That's not the case with Manny. Knock him back by 15-20% and he's into pretty marginal territory. Manny had 510 home runs, over 1600 RBI and an OPS of over 1.000 before going to the Dodgers. Not saying he's Bonds, but he was also pretty clearly a Hall of Famer before he ever failed a test.
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Post by bigpupp on Jan 1, 2017 20:44:24 GMT -5
I just don't see a way Manny gets in when Palmeiro couldn't even stay on the ballot.
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TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Jan 1, 2017 22:01:29 GMT -5
Jeff Kent is also worth some discussion here. He's a borderline guy but should be polling a lot higher than 12 percent. I think the writers have trouble getting their heads around voting for an offense-first 2B. The crowded ballot has also hurt Kent. His career B-Ref WAR of 55.2, puts him ahead of HOF 2B Bobby Doerr, Tony Lazzeri, Nellie Fox, and Johnny Evers, and just behind Joe Gordon. Heck, he's even ahead of future HOFer Dustin Pedroia (50.7). A career OPS-plus of 123 and SA of .500 are pretty extraordinary for a 2B. But Kent is in his fourth year on the ballot and is running a few percentage points behind where he finished last year. He'll have to wait more than a decade for the Vets Committee.
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Post by slam761 on Jan 1, 2017 22:22:25 GMT -5
Jeff Kent is also worth some discussion here. He's a borderline guy but should be polling a lot higher than 12 percent. I think the writers have trouble getting their heads around voting for an offense-first 2B. The crowded ballot has also hurt Kent. His career B-Ref WAR of 55.2, puts him ahead of HOF 2B Bobby Doerr, Tony Lazzeri, Nellie Fox, and Johnny Evers, and just behind Joe Gordon. Heck, he's even ahead of future HOFer Dustin Pedroia (50.7). A career OPS-plus of 123 and SA of .500 are pretty extraordinary for a 2B. But Kent is in his fourth year on the ballot and is running a few percentage points behind where he finished last year. He'll have to wait more than a decade for the Vets Committee. Kent's chances are probably hurt by the fact that he's almost universally regarded as a terrible person. Whether or not that should matter is debatable, but I certainly won't feel bad for him if he doesn't get in.
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Post by tonyc on Jan 1, 2017 22:51:41 GMT -5
I read John Tomase's article on why he won't elect Tim Raines. I previously liked some of his opinions, but not here. He discounted defense as a factor- at which Raines excelled and really went downhill in mentioning how he went along with voting for Blyleven and still regrets that. Blyleven had about 60 shutouts and I followed him his whole career- better than a number of hall of farmers, was not well supported in runs or bullpen. It's notable that he wasn't the same pitcher, but had some high winning percentages when he went to Pittsburgh later in his career. Hell, had he pitched for some of those great Yankee teams in the past with run support, he may have been about the best pitcher in their entire history.
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Post by rangoon82 on Jan 7, 2017 11:59:46 GMT -5
I just don't see a way Manny gets in when Palmeiro couldn't even stay on the ballot. Manny didn't lie to congress under oath?
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Post by bigpupp on Jan 7, 2017 12:50:41 GMT -5
I just don't see a way Manny gets in when Palmeiro couldn't even stay on the ballot. Manny didn't lie to congress under oath? And Palmeiro didn't push a travelling secretary to the ground. What's your point? He's still not getting in.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jan 7, 2017 15:56:16 GMT -5
I think they should have a special one-time ballot where each voter can elect players who will be (dis)honorably represented at the hall of fame. They won't be officially inducted and the will be no ceremony. Additionally, the veterans committee will be able to elect players to this group each year which will clean up future ballots as borderline HoFers who have knocks against them would fall off the ballot sooner.
This would clear up Manny and Pudge right away along with possibly Sosa. Bonds and Clemens would stay on given they have enough real votes and would eventually go in via the veterans committee if they aren't elected.
This would also allow Rose, Jackson, McGwire, Palmeiro and maybe a few other part candidates to get in via the veterans committee.
Additionally, increasing the max ballot to 12 (there are more teams and players now, so more should be getting elected) would help get the obvious candidates in, like Bagwell, Raines, Schilling, Martinez, Mussina. Then we can go back to debating relief pitchers (Hoffman, Smith, Wagner) and borderline players (Walker, Sheffield, Kent, Vlad).
Unfortunately MLB will probably do nothing and let the issue continue to get worse...
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Post by bluechip on Jan 7, 2017 19:15:34 GMT -5
I just don't see a way Manny gets in when Palmeiro couldn't even stay on the ballot. Manny: .418 wOBA, 153 wRC+ Palmeiro: .380 wOBA, 130 wRC+ Manny was a far superior hitter than Palmeiro.
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Post by bigpupp on Jan 7, 2017 22:43:49 GMT -5
I just don't see a way Manny gets in when Palmeiro couldn't even stay on the ballot. Manny: .418 wOBA, 153 wRC+ Palmeiro: .380 wOBA, 130 wRC+ Manny was a far superior hitter than Palmeiro. And he'll stay on the ballot all 10 years because of it. But again, he isn't getting in.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 7, 2017 23:07:17 GMT -5
I just don't see a way Manny gets in when Palmeiro couldn't even stay on the ballot. Manny: .418 wOBA, 153 wRC+ Palmeiro: .380 wOBA, 130 wRC+ Manny was a far superior hitter than Palmeiro. Hitter, yes. Overall player? It's not clear, and I'd lean Palmeiro. He was a very good defensive first baseman through the 90s, while Manny actively hurt his teams defensively (though his arm was accurate and he had a quick release). Also, Pameiro had nearly 2300 more plate appearances, and productive ones at that. So while they brought his overall career rate numbers down, he continued to provide positive value that should count. That last reason is why I'm down on McGwire's merits. His rate stats are phenomenal, but it's in large part because he didn't have a decline phase. He was one of the two or three best hitters in baseball in 1999 and washed up in 2001.
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Post by rjp313jr on Jan 10, 2017 13:38:31 GMT -5
Manny was one of he greatest hitters in baseball history. I don't care what his defense was like. He's a HOF player and if he's not then I question the relevance of the HOF.
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Post by libertine on Jan 15, 2017 0:29:00 GMT -5
As to Manny...if Ralph Kiner is in for just his bat, Manny has to go in. It might take a good long time for Manny to get there though, just like it did Kiner. Of course PED issue aside which has been/is being addressed already on this thread.
Vlad is a no-brainer for me. Raines should already be in. If Piazza goes in then Pudge is in too. Bagwell? Please see the Kiner rule^^^ plus Bagwell could field, winning a Gold Glove.
I can see Vlad and Raines going in this year, with Bags either just missing out or just getting in this time. I don't think that Pudge will go in first ballot. And I think a case for Schill, with all of his personal stuff (that has no place in this conversation anyway imo) aside, can be made.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 15, 2017 12:37:35 GMT -5
Is it just me or does calling Ivan Rodriguez Pudge drive anyone else crazy? There is only one Pudge, Carlton Fisk.
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Post by libertine on Jan 15, 2017 19:22:59 GMT -5
I hear you, and yes I agree. For me there will always be only one "Pudge". But somehow Ivan Rodriguez ended up with the same nickname so out of laziness (not wanting to type his full name) I refer to him as that. Laziness often leads to bad form. My apologies...
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 15, 2017 21:38:40 GMT -5
I hear you, and yes I agree. For me there will always be only one "Pudge". But somehow Ivan Rodriguez ended up with the same nickname so out of laziness (not wanting to type his full name) I refer to him as that. Laziness often leads to bad form. My apologies... I didn't mean to single you out. You certainly didn't come up with the nickname.
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