|
Post by libertine on Jan 18, 2017 20:24:57 GMT -5
I hear you, and yes I agree. For me there will always be only one "Pudge". But somehow Ivan Rodriguez ended up with the same nickname so out of laziness (not wanting to type his full name) I refer to him as that. Laziness often leads to bad form. My apologies... I didn't mean to single you out. You certainly didn't come up with the nickname. Nawww. I didn't feel singled out by you, it is all good. Just the latest offender in a case where a stand needs to be made.
But anyhoo it is Bagwell, Raines and Rodriguez going in. I still don't think Rodriguez was a first ballot worthy selection and if there was one in this class it was Vlad. Good to see sanity finally prevail and Raines get elected.
|
|
rjp313jr
Veteran
Posts: 13,980
Member is Online
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 19, 2017 19:56:11 GMT -5
"First ballot worthy" is what's wrong with the HOF. You are either worthy or not.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 20, 2017 8:16:05 GMT -5
Ivan Rodriguez is arguably the second-best catcher in history, and unarguably one of the top six.
|
|
|
Post by 0ap0 on Jan 20, 2017 10:48:01 GMT -5
Ivan Rodriguez is arguably the second-best catcher in history, and unarguably one of the top six. With number one unarguably being Oscar Charleston, right?
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 20, 2017 12:33:48 GMT -5
Did Charleston ever catch?
I was thinking Johnny Bench, but I do suppose Josh Gibson deserves discussion. Hard to know quite how good he was, but by all accounts it was really really good.
Anyway, next class down: Rodriguez, Carter, Fisk, Berra, probably Piazza. All Hall of Famers and deserving of it without question.
|
|
|
Post by 0ap0 on Jan 20, 2017 13:19:41 GMT -5
Did Charleston ever catch? Wow, how did I misremember that? Yes. All the time. He was great. And I'm awesome.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 20, 2017 16:32:28 GMT -5
Did Charleston ever catch? Wow, how did I misremember that? Yes. All the time. He was great. And I'm awesome.You're thinking of Josh Gibson, probably.
|
|
|
Post by FenwayFanatic on Jan 21, 2017 8:39:22 GMT -5
What do you guys think Pedroia needs to do to get in? Im thinking he could especially considering they have 10 cracks at it.
|
|
|
Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 21, 2017 9:54:40 GMT -5
What do you guys think Pedroia needs to do to get in? Im thinking he could especially considering they have 10 cracks at it. I think he needs to finish his career very healthy and keep producing. It'll be hard even still for Pedrioa to reach the 3000 hit mark plateau. Achievements like that have a huge sway in the votes. I think he has a chance. He'll be a borderline guy if he keeps up his progression in his career.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 22, 2017 20:42:35 GMT -5
What do you guys think Pedroia needs to do to get in? Im thinking he could especially considering they have 10 cracks at it. Interesting question. I think with two more outstanding seasons, or maybe 4-5 more legitimately good ones then he'll have a strong case. He'll get boosts from the two World Series wins (hopefully more!), the MVP, and the Rookie of the Year. Another question. What players, if they retired immediately, would be in the Hall of Fame? I'd say Pujols, Beltre, Cabrera, and Ichiro are the only definite ones. Beltran should be but I wonder if he'll get there. I'd also vote for Kershaw, Verlander, and Utley myself, and *maybe Mauer - catching is really demanding and the attrition rate is so high. Cano is close.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 23, 2017 7:58:04 GMT -5
What do you guys think Pedroia needs to do to get in? Im thinking he could especially considering they have 10 cracks at it. Interesting question. I think with two more outstanding seasons, or maybe 4-5 more legitimately good ones then he'll have a strong case. He'll get boosts from the two World Series wins (hopefully more!), the MVP, and the Rookie of the Year. Another question. What players, if they retired immediately, would be in the Hall of Fame? I'd say Pujols, Beltre, Cabrera, and Ichiro are the only definite ones. Beltran should be but I wonder if he'll get there. I'd also vote for Kershaw, Verlander, and Utley myself, and *maybe Mauer - catching is really demanding and the attrition rate is so high. Cano is close. At the risk of a hot take, Trout has already done enough to deserve it.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 23, 2017 8:10:05 GMT -5
Agree totally. Only reason I didn't include him is that the 10-year eligibility requirement is still in place and I don't really want to think about circumstances that would lead to him not playing for five more years.
|
|
rjp313jr
Veteran
Posts: 13,980
Member is Online
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 23, 2017 10:06:14 GMT -5
Kershaw doesn't have 10 years yet either. I know he's close but if he retired immediately he wouldn't have a service time.
|
|
rjp313jr
Veteran
Posts: 13,980
Member is Online
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 23, 2017 10:11:06 GMT -5
It bothers me how watered down the HOF is and it bothers me that someone like Rose isn't in. On the Rose thing, it's baseball history and he's one of the best to not acknowledge that is foolish. I don't care if they shame him in his display he should be there.
As far as it being watered down. Going too much by the numbers, like 500 home runs or comparing to another guy who is a Hall of Famer creates an environment where it continues to get easier and easier to get in.
Whenever, we talk about these things I always wonder if people name names because they think those guys should be Hall of Famers or if they think they will be based on others that got in... or do you distinguish?
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 23, 2017 10:39:22 GMT -5
It is definitely not getting easier and easier to get into the Hall of Fame. The players in the 1980s and 1990s who missed out are much better than players in previous generations to get in. Bert Blyleven is one of the 20 greatest pitchers of all time and he had to wait 15 years. Catfish Hunter and Don Drysdale... were not. Tim Hudson and Mark Buehrle were as good as Hunter and Dyrsdale, just less famous. Heck, Chris Sale already has a better Hall of Fame resume than Rube Marquard. "It's too easy to get into the Hall of Fame now" is grumpy old man talk and nothing more.
It is crazy that Clayton Kershaw hasn't been around for 10 years but that is correct. A year and a half short. Still, if his arm broke tomorrow and he never pitched again he'd be in the Hall of Fame.
|
|
rjp313jr
Veteran
Posts: 13,980
Member is Online
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 23, 2017 11:23:48 GMT -5
Hey now, I'm not old. The players of the 90s are the first guys I can say I really watched before that I was too young.
They need to make ballots public, remove the limit on how many people you can vote for and let guys stay on a ballot a max of 5 years.
There is no reason it should take a voter 15 or 20 years to decide if a guy is Hall worthy. They have 5 years after they retire another 5 is more than enough.
Nothing wrong with a guy being great but not elite.
And yea most players who play today are better than the guys who played generations before them. The knowledge alone makes a huge difference then the physical and medical differences add even more to it. Players should be compared to their own era.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 23, 2017 11:52:20 GMT -5
What do you guys think Pedroia needs to do to get in? Im thinking he could especially considering they have 10 cracks at it. Interesting question. I think with two more outstanding seasons, or maybe 4-5 more legitimately good ones then he'll have a strong case. He'll get boosts from the two World Series wins (hopefully more!), the MVP, and the Rookie of the Year. Another question. What players, if they retired immediately, would be in the Hall of Fame? I'd say Pujols, Beltre, Cabrera, and Ichiro are the only definite ones. Beltran should be but I wonder if he'll get there. I'd also vote for Kershaw, Verlander, and Utley myself, and *maybe Mauer - catching is really demanding and the attrition rate is so high. Cano is close. Which, by the way, how bonkers is it that Posada didn't even stay on the ballot? I mean it's a little bit of the "first ballot" type silliness to worry about a guy staying on the ballot when you don't think he actually deserves induction, but damn. 17th best catcher ever by JAWS. The 16th and 18th are Buck Ewing and Ernie Lombardi, respectively, and they're both in. Mauer is already 9th. It's a shame he's been such a mediocre hitter in his post-catching career. I figured he'd be a guy who hit .280 with walks and doubles forever once he moved, and if that had happened his case would be pretty undeniable. As it is, it will probably be a struggle for him to get in. Also, in writing this post, I just now discovered that BR has JAWS leaderboards! www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtmlSuper useful.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 23, 2017 12:02:24 GMT -5
I'm comparing players to those in their same era. Hudson was a better pitcher compared to his contemporaries than Catfish Hunter was compared to his. I wouldn't put him in the Hall of Fame, though. Whether Hunter was a "mistake" or
Next year the ballots are public, and the time on the ballot was reduced from 15 to 10 years a few years ago. I see no reason to reduce it further - plenty of deserving Hall of Famers have taken a few years to get voters to pay attention to their careers, for whatever reason. For one good example, Mike Mussina, who is clearly qualified, would be in his fifth year of eligibility. He's clearly been harmed by a glut of qualified candidates and easily deserves voters to take a longer look at his career.
---
EDIT: Posada was definitely hurt by having such a crowded ballot, yeah. I don't think he'd get anywhere near induction, even on longer look. But I'd imagine a couple dozen of the people who voted for 10 would've voted for him, keeping him on.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Jan 23, 2017 13:54:02 GMT -5
Catfish Hunter is in the hall because of that nickname. That just sounds awesome. If we were talking about Lord Hudson or Beer Me Buehrle then both would be in easily, but since that's not the case yeah tough break.
|
|
rjp313jr
Veteran
Posts: 13,980
Member is Online
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 23, 2017 15:34:51 GMT -5
Posada fell off because he's clearly not a Hall of Famer. He was an offensive catcher not known for his defense and his offense was nice but not anything amazing.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 23, 2017 16:00:59 GMT -5
His offense was pretty amazing for a player who could catch adequately. His counting stats aren't enough for me to consider him Hall of Fame worthy, in part because he wasn't a full-time player until he was 28. But from 2000 to 2007 he hit .283/.389/.492. He's also the greatest baseball player who ever looked that much like a turtle.
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 23, 2017 18:25:44 GMT -5
Harsh... very harsh.
|
|
|
Post by Oregon Norm on Feb 12, 2017 0:24:03 GMT -5
Here are the rules for HoF voting: Pro football is doing it differently. U of O great and hall of fame qb Dan Fouts got a vote, as did James Lofton. This is one of the more intelligent conversations you're likely to read about the deliberations, from someone who's taken the time to think it through. Good interview. mmqb.si.com/mmqb/2017/02/10/nfl-dan-fouts-hall-of-fame-voting
|
|