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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 13, 2017 9:12:39 GMT -5
3. Andrew Benintendi, OF, Boston Red Sox 5. Yoan Moncada, 2B/3B, Chicago White Sox13. Rafael Devers, 3B, Boston Red Sox 18. Manuel Margot, OF, San Diego Padres24. Anderson Espinoza, RHP, San Diego Padres29. Jason Groome, LHP, Boston Red Sox 36. Michael Kopech, RHP, Chicago White Soxwww.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=31160 |
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Post by borisman on Feb 13, 2017 12:01:06 GMT -5
Groome at 29 is a bit of a surprise but he was ranked 1st by most in the last draft so I could see the consistency with top overall talents. Plus, that curveball is pretty sick and fastball not bad iether. I really hope he gets develops a change-up. He'll need to start using a third pitch this year, especially since his inning total will be capped at around 80(?).
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 13, 2017 17:02:45 GMT -5
Not to sound like I'm bickering, but Alex Reyes has walked over 4 dudes per 9 in every level he's been in. Not sure a guy like that should be the #1 prospect in all of baseball regardless of how ridiculous his ceiling might be.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 14, 2017 8:39:54 GMT -5
Not to sound like I'm bickering, but Alex Reyes has walked over 4 dudes per 9 in every level he's been in. Not sure a guy like that should be the #1 prospect in all of baseball regardless of how ridiculous his ceiling might be. Agree 100%. This feels like that time when a couple publications picked Matt Moore ahead of Trout and Harper in a way that felt intentionally contrarian. He's probably going to be good and has a real chance to be historically great, but his upside isn't higher than Benintendi/Swanson/Moncada (all four have legit HOF upside) and his likely projection is below all three. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Feb 14, 2017 10:09:19 GMT -5
Somebody needs to stick a fork in BP's minor league coverage, I think they're done.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 14, 2017 11:01:12 GMT -5
I'm not sure you can put his projection behind Moncada.... if Moncada can't hit he offers no defensive value and the holes in his swing are real right now. Not saying he will be a bust but he has huge bust potential.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 14, 2017 11:15:26 GMT -5
I'm not sure you can put his projection behind Moncada.... if Moncada can't hit he offers no defensive value and the holes in his swing are real right now. Not saying he will be a bust but he has huge bust potential. 1) Would say that "no defensive value" is a bit much. He's no gold-glover yet but the tools are there to be even a bit above average defensively. 2) Don't forget Moncada's speed. The player you're describing (if he can't hit he offers no value) is Garin Cecchini, not Yoan Moncada. |
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Post by mattpicard on Feb 14, 2017 11:29:46 GMT -5
Somebody needs to stick a fork in BP's minor league coverage, I think they're done. Can't say I disagree, nor do I miss my subscription much. They've been in decline for years now, yet they're still scrapping along. The 2015 ownership change didn't seem to reverse their fall at all. I'm not sure you can put his projection behind Moncada.... if Moncada can't hit he offers no defensive value and the holes in his swing are real right now. Not saying he will be a bust but he has huge bust potential. You would think someone with his speed and athleticism could at least be a serviceable center fielder, or good corner outfielder, but without him ever having played there, it may be too early to make that assumption. And while he may never be overly fluid at second or third, he could easily become solid-enough there - important defensive positions - and provide positive defensive value. |
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 14, 2017 11:56:33 GMT -5
I think Moncada plays second base passably enough that the upside in his bat means he should stick there. Think of Derek Jeter's prime years - in 1999 he was, at best, the 25th or so best defensive shortstop in baseball but he hit so well that he was an MVP candidate anyway.
One problem with a defensive change for him is the risk involved: he has the physical tools that you think would make him a good outfielder, but to train him to do so you lose out on the development as a second baseman, where his bat is sublime.
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Post by ramireja on Feb 14, 2017 13:16:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure you can put his projection behind Moncada.... if Moncada can't hit he offers no defensive value and the holes in his swing are real right now. Not saying he will be a bust but he has huge bust potential. If Moncada can't hit he might be more like Melvin (B.J.) Upton circa 2009-2012.....a player who consistently hit between .230-250 but was about ~3 WAR per year once factoring in the power/speed combo. So no, not a huge bust. |
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Post by mattpicard on Feb 14, 2017 13:23:05 GMT -5
Not to sound like I'm bickering, but Alex Reyes has walked over 4 dudes per 9 in every level he's been in. Not sure a guy like that should be the #1 prospect in all of baseball regardless of how ridiculous his ceiling might be. Agree 100%. This feels like that time when a couple publications picked Matt Moore ahead of Trout and Harper in a way that felt intentionally contrarian. He's probably going to be good and has a real chance to be historically great, but his upside isn't higher than Benintendi/Swanson/Moncada (all four have legit HOF upside) and his likely projection is below all three. Speaking of Reyes... Jenifer LangoschVerified account @langoschmlb 33m33 minutes ago Alex Reyes had an MRI on his pitching arm today. #STLCards do not yet know the results. Jenifer LangoschVerified account @langoschmlb 31m31 minutes ago #STLCards have not specified what the area of concern is with Reyes, but Matheny did say: "There must be a significant reason to do this." Craig MishVerified account @craigmish I am told : Potentially season ending injury for Alex Reyes. Tough tough blown for Cardinals. Jeff PassanVerified account @jeffpassan 49m49 minutes ago There is significant concern inside the Cardinals' organization that Alex Reyes, their star pitching prospect, needs Tommy John surgery. Jeff PassanVerified account @jeffpassan 48m48 minutes ago That said, any UCL damage significant enough to warrant an MRI is bad, and Alex Reyes being a hard thrower doesn't lend itself to optimism. |
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nomar
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BP Top 100
Feb 14, 2017 13:56:17 GMT -5
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Post by nomar on Feb 14, 2017 13:56:17 GMT -5
Damn, that's too bad if that's the case. Seems to be "when" rather than "if" talented young arms get TJS these days.
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BP Top 100
Feb 14, 2017 15:11:50 GMT -5
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Post by bluechip on Feb 14, 2017 15:11:50 GMT -5
Agree 100%. This feels like that time when a couple publications picked Matt Moore ahead of Trout and Harper in a way that felt intentionally contrarian. He's probably going to be good and has a real chance to be historically great, but his upside isn't higher than Benintendi/Swanson/Moncada (all four have legit HOF upside) and his likely projection is below all three. Speaking of Reyes... Jenifer LangoschVerified account @langoschmlb 33m33 minutes ago Alex Reyes had an MRI on his pitching arm today. #STLCards do not yet know the results. Jenifer LangoschVerified account @langoschmlb 31m31 minutes ago #STLCards have not specified what the area of concern is with Reyes, but Matheny did say: "There must be a significant reason to do this." Craig MishVerified account @craigmish I am told : Potentially season ending injury for Alex Reyes. Tough tough blown for Cardinals. Jeff PassanVerified account @jeffpassan 49m49 minutes ago There is significant concern inside the Cardinals' organization that Alex Reyes, their star pitching prospect, needs Tommy John surgery. Jeff PassanVerified account @jeffpassan 48m48 minutes ago That said, any UCL damage significant enough to warrant an MRI is bad, and Alex Reyes being a hard thrower doesn't lend itself to optimism. St. Louis Cardinals pitcher Alex Reyes has a partial tear of the ulnar collateral ligament in his elbow and will get a second opinion, but season-ending Tommy John surgery is likely, a source told ESPN's Jim Bowden. www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/18684594/st-louis-cardinals-pitcher-alex-reyes-sore-elbow-mri |
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BP Top 100
Feb 14, 2017 16:24:02 GMT -5
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Post by soxfanatic on Feb 14, 2017 16:24:02 GMT -5
I guess the folks at BP would like a mulligan on that list.
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Post by borisman on Feb 14, 2017 16:47:01 GMT -5
It's like the Madden curse being their top prospect.
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Post by borisman on Mar 5, 2017 7:35:26 GMT -5
Groome at 29 is a bit of a surprise but he was ranked 1st by most in the last draft so I could see the consistency with top overall talents. Plus, that curveball is pretty sick and fastball not bad iether. I really hope he gets develops a change-up. He'll need to start using a third pitch this year, especially since his inning total will be capped at around 80(?). Yup, I guess the coaches agree hahaha....j/k. We all knew he needs to work on it so seems like he's really focused but he also needs to stay of the social media and the "haters" chip on his shoulder. Not exactly sure how he comes off saying some of the things he's saying. Sure he's a great prospect but don't forget you were given a gift and you have to keep developing it by working your a$$ off. Only then you might be great and a HOF'er. From the Herald article:Right now, Groome is trying to harness his changeup. He’s going to whip it into shape. That’s a given, just as he’s done with his other two (or three) pitches. “I’m really just focusing on throwing (the changeup) like my curveball and fastball — same arm speed, same everything and hopefully it will click,” Groome said. “I’ve pretty much mastered my fastball, mastered my curveball. Now the changeup’s a work in progress.” linkAlso says he's messing around with a knuckleball on the side. |
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Post by rookie13 on Mar 5, 2017 11:06:15 GMT -5
Groome at 29 is a bit of a surprise but he was ranked 1st by most in the last draft so I could see the consistency with top overall talents. Plus, that curveball is pretty sick and fastball not bad iether. I really hope he gets develops a change-up. He'll need to start using a third pitch this year, especially since his inning total will be capped at around 80(?). Yup, I guess the coaches agree hahaha....j/k. We all knew he needs to work on it so seems like he's really focused but he also needs to stay of the social media and the "haters" chip on his shoulder. Not exactly sure how he comes off saying some of the things he's saying. Sure he's a great prospect but don't forget you were given a gift and you have to keep developing it by working your a$$ off. Only then you might be great and a HOF'er. From the Herald article:Right now, Groome is trying to harness his changeup. He’s going to whip it into shape. That’s a given, just as he’s done with his other two (or three) pitches. “I’m really just focusing on throwing (the changeup) like my curveball and fastball — same arm speed, same everything and hopefully it will click,” Groome said. “I’ve pretty much mastered my fastball, mastered my curveball. Now the changeup’s a work in progress.” linkAlso says he's messing around with a knuckleball on the side. I love how he displays such a large amount of confidence in himself, while also being able to admit that not everything he does is great and there's still work to be done. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 5, 2017 11:15:53 GMT -5
I'm really hoping that Dombrowski hangs onto Groome. He has the size and the stuff to be something worth building around but that won't probably be the case since he's so far away. There's no way I can see Dombrowski waiting three years for him to develop.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 5, 2017 11:29:46 GMT -5
I'm really hoping that Dombrowski hangs onto Groome. He has the size and the stuff to be something worth building around but that won't probably be the case since he's so far away. There's no way I can see Dombrowski waiting three years for him to develop. One guy is never enough to build around, certainly not when that one guy is a pitcher. Honestly there's so little that's going to be coming out of this farm system three years from now that the Sox might as well just trade Groome now and max out the window that they do have. When that window closes, blow it up and start over. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 5, 2017 12:05:56 GMT -5
I'm really hoping that Dombrowski hangs onto Groome. He has the size and the stuff to be something worth building around but that won't probably be the case since he's so far away. There's no way I can see Dombrowski waiting three years for him to develop. One guy is never enough to build around, certainly not when that one guy is a pitcher. Honestly there's so little that's going to be coming out of this farm system three years from now that the Sox might as well just trade Groome now and max out the window that they do have. When that window closes, blow it up and start over. The Dodgers always seem to be in contention because of Kershaw (with the exception of last year, Kershaw was hurt for half of it). It's a huge what if but that kind of pitcher can change your organization and put the team in contention for a long time, if he can stay healthy (which is another huge what if at that position). I don't disagree with the rest of what you had to say though. Actually I kind of agree with you and I bumped up the Goldshmidt trade thread a month ago and threw that idea out there. Makes a lot of sense to do that kind of move if you're going for it. Edit- Kershaw is probably a bad example to go to because he might be the best pitcher of this generation. I think you got the point. Having that kind of top of the rotation certainly doesn't hurt at least. |
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 5, 2017 12:46:41 GMT -5
One guy is never enough to build around, certainly not when that one guy is a pitcher. Honestly there's so little that's going to be coming out of this farm system three years from now that the Sox might as well just trade Groome now and max out the window that they do have. When that window closes, blow it up and start over. The Dodgers always seem to be in contention because of Kershaw (with the exception of last year, Kershaw was hurt for half of it). It's a huge what if but that kind of pitcher can change your organization and put the team in contention for a long time, if he can stay healthy (which is another huge what if at that position). I don't disagree with the rest of what you had to say though. Actually I kind of agree with you and I bumped up the Goldshmidt trade thread a month ago and threw that idea out there. Makes a lot of sense to do that kind of move if you're going for it. Edit- Kershaw is probably a bad example to go to because he might be the best pitcher of this generation. I think you got the point. Having that kind of top of the rotation certainly doesn't hurt at least. And the Dodgers won what with Kershaw? Even Pedro only won one championship but not until he wasn't even the best pitcher on the team. Obviously it helps to have these guys, but it's not like you can count on Groome to even be a #3 pitcher, let alone the best pitcher in the league. |
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 5, 2017 13:56:09 GMT -5
I'm really hoping that Dombrowski hangs onto Groome. He has the size and the stuff to be something worth building around but that won't probably be the case since he's so far away. There's no way I can see Dombrowski waiting three years for him to develop. One guy is never enough to build around, certainly not when that one guy is a pitcher. Honestly there's so little that's going to be coming out of this farm system three years from now that the Sox might as well just trade Groome now and max out the window that they do have. When that window closes, blow it up and start over. Groome and Devers could both be great players coming in the next 3 years plus Travis could be very good not to mention any number of players that could develop or not even be drafted yet who could come from the system and help this team. Not to mention the incredibly young core. Not sure how many players you expect to come from a system every year but it seems a bit extreme. Add: should probably count Swithart and Vasquez in the system guys who could still come and help the team, plus guy's like Henry Owens.... This narrative that the team only has 3 years to be good is so misguided, but fits the typical pessimism. |
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Post by soxjim on Mar 5, 2017 15:27:10 GMT -5
One guy is never enough to build around, certainly not when that one guy is a pitcher. Honestly there's so little that's going to be coming out of this farm system three years from now that the Sox might as well just trade Groome now and max out the window that they do have. When that window closes, blow it up and start over. Groome and Devers could both be great players coming in the next 3 years plus Travis could be very good not to mention any number of players that could develop or not even be drafted yet who could come from the system and help this team. Not to mention the incredibly young core. Not sure how many players you expect to come from a system every year but it seems a bit extreme. Add: should probably count Swithart and Vasquez in the system guys who could still come and help the team, plus guy's like Henry Owens.... This narrative that the team only has 3 years to be good is so misguided, but fits the typical pessimism.I agree. And the love for prospects.
I wasn't on here much during the championship and 3 last place finishes. It's as though last place finishes is acceptable with a $190m payroll yet trying to win championship is bad if you trade prospects.
And ofc we hear we can't sign all the players we have in a few years but with that known, conversely, very little consideration will be granted that we'll be able to make trades before the player leaves and get some value. For example, look at the value the Yanks got for relief pitchers.
I'm not sure about Groome coming up in 3 years though and being an impact the moment he comes up if it is 3 years. That would make him 20? Maybe 21? That's why I never believe in the narrative that if DD waited - the sox would have had a dynasty. The pitching prospects - the good ones were far away.
I like the three you mention a lot though as I think nearly everyone on here at least loves the 2. I'm not sure what Travis will become but I expect he'll at least be serviceable.
What's the story with Chavis? It seemed last year he was doing extremely well before he got hurt then came back and sputtered. Any possibility of him raising the bar and becoming a solid prospect they initially drafted him for?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 5, 2017 15:40:51 GMT -5
One guy is never enough to build around, certainly not when that one guy is a pitcher. Honestly there's so little that's going to be coming out of this farm system three years from now that the Sox might as well just trade Groome now and max out the window that they do have. When that window closes, blow it up and start over. . Not to mention the incredibly young core. Not sure how many players you expect to come from a system every year but it seems a bit extreme. Add: should probably count Swithart and Vasquez in the system guys who could still come and help the team, plus guy's like Henry Owens.... This narrative that the team only has 3 years to be good is so misguided, but fits the typical pessimism. Yeah, if you're willing to be wildly optimistic about the guys they have left on the farm (and guys they don't have on the farm), everything will be fine. Realistically they have two players left who reasonably project as above-average major leaguers and with the salary structure and aging patterns in modern baseball being what they are, that's going to be a huge problem sooner than people realize. Also, I'd be a lot more forgiving of these trades if the end result of everything wasn't Chris Sale and what could easily end up being a bunch of nothing. There's no Miguel Cabrera in this group, that's for sure. Like if you want to sell out for a championship, fine, but the reason this team is in a position to do that is because Betts, Bogaerts, Bradley, and Benintendi weren't traded. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 5, 2017 16:06:59 GMT -5
The Dodgers always seem to be in contention because of Kershaw (with the exception of last year, Kershaw was hurt for half of it). It's a huge what if but that kind of pitcher can change your organization and put the team in contention for a long time, if he can stay healthy (which is another huge what if at that position). I don't disagree with the rest of what you had to say though. Actually I kind of agree with you and I bumped up the Goldshmidt trade thread a month ago and threw that idea out there. Makes a lot of sense to do that kind of move if you're going for it. Edit- Kershaw is probably a bad example to go to because he might be the best pitcher of this generation. I think you got the point. Having that kind of top of the rotation certainly doesn't hurt at least. And the Dodgers won what with Kershaw? Even Pedro only won one championship but not until he wasn't even the best pitcher on the team. Obviously it helps to have these guys, but it's not like you can count on Groome to even be a #3 pitcher, let alone the best pitcher in the league. I would say that the Dodgers lack of winning was because they were so bad building a team around Kershaw. I mean it got so bad that they had to change ownership while he's been there. The same thing happened with Pedro in the 90's and early 2000's. The Red Sox had so much poor team building skills skills back then. Obviously one guy can't do it all but one guy can make a huge difference. Where would the 1999 Red Sox be without Pedro? Probably missing the playoffs and close to one of the worst teams in the AL imo. |
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