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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 2, 2017 15:22:19 GMT -5
Djdhbdhwjzb
Ugh. At least it wasn't Sale.
This kind of explains the dip in velocity last year....
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jodyreidnichols
Veteran
Dustin Pedroia injured
Posts: 1,551
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Post by jodyreidnichols on Mar 2, 2017 15:37:42 GMT -5
Well that makes the Sale trade look better. Brutal though. Hopefully ERod or Pomeranz can take that next step forward this year. Edit - I guess you can add Owens into that mix but I'm losing pretty much all hope there. Well 2 of our 3 # 4 & #5 starters were all stars last season. Can even 1 staff other than the Sox make that claim. I'd bet that no other team can claim an all star even for their #3 starter, maybe even #2. We have 2 competing for spots and the other many believe as the upside of a front of the rotation starter. Everyone Forgets Brian Johnson.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Mar 2, 2017 15:57:11 GMT -5
I hope Price has a healthy recovery and comes back stronger than before because I can't see a scenario where Price opts out of his deal now.
The Sox are stuck with Price the next 6 years for better or worse now imo.
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Post by voiceofreason on Mar 2, 2017 16:22:21 GMT -5
I have decided to stay positive and hope this elbow pain goes away, please!!
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 2, 2017 16:23:47 GMT -5
Well that makes the Sale trade look better. Brutal though. Hopefully ERod or Pomeranz can take that next step forward this year. Edit - I guess you can add Owens into that mix but I'm losing pretty much all hope there. Well 2 of our 3 # 4 & #5 starters were all stars last season. Can even 1 staff other than the Sox make that claim. I'd bet that no other team can claim an all star even for their #3 starter, maybe even #2. We have 2 competing for spots and the other many believe as the upside of a front of the rotation starter. Everyone Forgets Brian Johnson. Bartolo Colon is set to be the Braves #3 starter and he was an All Star in 2016. So yeah, great way to judge a pitching staff I'd say. Also, everyone forgets Brian Johnson for a reason.
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Post by jmei on Mar 2, 2017 17:03:25 GMT -5
Look at it this way - say Dombrowski had refrained from trading Buchholz when he did and decided to wait out the market until spring training (which would have been prudent). Is there *anyone* who wants to make the case that you would trade Buchholz for Josh fng Tobias now? To be fair, the reason they traded Buchholz was to clear salary and get under the cap. Maybe if Price goes under the knife, ownership would now be willing to bite the bullet and go over the cap, but no way of knowing that.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Mar 2, 2017 18:10:22 GMT -5
I made it through the first page, until I could not risk reading any more of the type of I am smarter that the GM and staff of the Red Sox.... i told you so....bull****.
This is unfortunate for the player, team / ownership, and fans. That's pretty much it. It is time for other people to raise their games. There are other players that can pitch on the 40, and they need to fill the void, if the worst case ends up happening.
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Post by sarasoxer on Mar 2, 2017 18:11:27 GMT -5
Look at it this way - say Dombrowski had refrained from trading Buchholz when he did and decided to wait out the market until spring training (which would have been prudent). Is there *anyone* who wants to make the case that you would trade Buchholz for Josh fng Tobias now? To be fair, the reason they traded Buchholz was to clear salary and get under the cap. Maybe if Price goes under the knife, ownership would now be willing to bite the bullet and go over the cap, but no way of knowing that. Price's situation underscores how terribly fragile a baseball team's fortunes are. Best laid plans... without a supplemental pitching prospect or 2 near term and a depleted farm should the worst eventuate. I think tho, even if a Price TJ, with the youth of the team that we stay under the cap to participate in next year's FA foodfight. We still have our "window". I always fear the Yankees and see them in the same position we were a year or 2 ago. I watched Greg Bird Tuesday hit 2 titanic HRs at jetBlue and Gleyber Torres (SP) look so poised at 20 with 2 hits.... Judge is a specimen conjured up by central casting. This does not count Sanchez who has made something of a mark already.
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Post by thursty on Mar 2, 2017 18:27:41 GMT -5
Look at it this way - say Dombrowski had refrained from trading Buchholz when he did and decided to wait out the market until spring training (which would have been prudent). Is there *anyone* who wants to make the case that you would trade Buchholz for Josh fng Tobias now? To be fair, the reason they traded Buchholz was to clear salary and get under the cap. Maybe if Price goes under the knife, ownership would now be willing to bite the bullet and go over the cap, but no way of knowing that. You should read what I wrote more closely; nothing I wrote presumes oracular powers from Dombrowski; but here's one thing that doesn't require a crystal ball - there will be a handful of starting pitchers that will be seriously injured in spring training (Price makes it at least 2 already and it's just turned March). This puts one in a better position to get something of value for Buchholz; Buchholz's contract isn't underwater - why do you think the Phillies traded for him? It's not a secret - it's because they believe they can move him at the deadline *for something better than the flotsam they gave the Red Sox* So that also could have been the Red Sox's backup plan even if it magically turned out they couldn't have taken advantage of the inevitable spring injuries. All it would have required was patience and competence, which the present GM lacks ; then given the bad news, they either a. could keep Buchholz and be thankful for their backup or b. if they care so much about the CBT, go ahead and move him for something certainly no worse than Tobias. Yes, Dombrowski is incompetent, but he isn't a masochist
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Post by ghostofrussgibson on Mar 2, 2017 18:40:43 GMT -5
Lots of moving parts at the moment. While the Sale addition looked (near term) like icing on the cake, maybe now he's a more of a quality substitute for Price if it comes to that.
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Post by rookie13 on Mar 2, 2017 19:33:58 GMT -5
I'm not worried about this until we know exactly what's wrong with him. Obviously losing him would be a huge blow to the rotation, but it's not like we have no one to fill in the gaps.
The Sox may not have great depth for Starters but a 3/4/5 of Wright/Rodriguez/Pomeranz isn't a disaster. They all have question marks but they also have plenty of upside. it's not like Price is the end all be all of this team.
They way I see it, if Price were to miss the season, Sale basically replaces him and this team is still built to make a strong post season run.
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Post by jmei on Mar 2, 2017 20:23:15 GMT -5
To be fair, the reason they traded Buchholz was to clear salary and get under the cap. Maybe if Price goes under the knife, ownership would now be willing to bite the bullet and go over the cap, but no way of knowing that. You should read what I wrote more closely; nothing I wrote presumes oracular powers from Dombrowski; but here's one thing that doesn't require a crystal ball - there will be a handful of starting pitchers that will be seriously injured in spring training (Price makes it at least 2 already and it's just turned March). This puts one in a better position to get something of value for Buchholz; Buchholz's contract isn't underwater - why do you think the Phillies traded for him? It's not a secret - it's because they believe they can move him at the deadline *for something better than the flotsam they gave the Red Sox* So that also could have been the Red Sox's backup plan even if it magically turned out they couldn't have taken advantage of the inevitable spring injuries. All it would have required was patience and competence, which the present GM lacks ; then given the bad news, they either a. could keep Buchholz and be thankful for their backup or b. if they care so much about the CBT, go ahead and move him for something certainly no worse than Tobias. Yes, Dombrowski is incompetent, but he isn't a masochist You're missing my point. I agree both now and then that the Buchholz trade was a bad trade even if they had a mandate to get under the luxury tax. But if they did have such a mandate, the Price news doesn't really change the necessity of trading Buchholz sooner or later (unless, as I mentioned, ownership changes their mind-- a counterfactual that you can't really know the answer to).
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Post by Oregon Norm on Mar 2, 2017 20:58:07 GMT -5
...Price's situation underscores how terribly fragile a baseball team's fortunes are. Best laid plans... without a supplemental pitching prospect or 2 near term and a depleted farm should the worst eventuate. ... You're stretching, here. They kept the guys who are closest to the majors. There is no way that either Kopech or Espinoza show up to spell Price. I'll lay money down that, if he is undergoing the knife, Price will be back and throwing beebees before either sniffs the majors. I'll even double that bet on Groome making it up before either of the other two get to start a game (that's a hedge on Kopech's future role, there). This stuff.. happens... every.... year. So even though he appears to be a little on the fragile side, just having Pomeranz - a certified MLB ready starter - looks increasingly like a strong move. That's unless DeMaineAh has used his gris-gris to send the guy straight into the clutches of doc Andrews.
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Post by thursty on Mar 2, 2017 21:28:01 GMT -5
No, you can't possibly agree with your own argument - to wit, it would require you to hold that Buchholz's present value would be unchanged from Buchholz's value in December (presuming Price is lost for year). That's patently absurd.
Would Brock Holt's value remain unchanged if Pedroia tears his ACL? Travis's value if Ramirez is lost to shoulder surgery? Swihart's value if Leon or Vazquez either get hurt or are unplayable? What if one or more of Wright/Pomeranz/Rodriguez are hurt (which I'd say is well above 50% probability)?
My point is that even if you had put the odds of Price at getting seriously injured at 0 - the smart play was to hold on to Buchholz through spring (this you agree with); serendipitously, *due to Price's injury*, it's even a smarter play.
Henry said publicly there is no "mandate" wrt CBT; I'll translate and surmise that there is a very strong preference to get under, but *not at the cost of the season* (Henry's well aware of the vagaries of the injury gods) - that is the inescapable logic of the foolish path that Dombrowski has pursued - gut the farm system, fail to ink team-friendly extensions; so that the Red Sox "go for it now" - this team has a 3-year window, you can't afford to throw away a year because of the CBT.
In addition Buchholz would not have been the only option to move to get under the CBT; there's a certain not-very-valuable pitcher, one the flackeys still insist is "elite", who a. makes more than Buchholz b. has consensus WAR projections less than Buchholz's
could of moved him
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Post by sarasoxer on Mar 2, 2017 21:38:00 GMT -5
...Price's situation underscores how terribly fragile a baseball team's fortunes are. Best laid plans... without a supplemental pitching prospect or 2 near term and a depleted farm should the worst eventuate. ... You're stretching, here. They kept the guys who are closest to the majors. There is no way that either Kopech or Espinoza show up to spell Price. I'll lay money down that, if he is undergoing the knife, Price will be back and throwing beebees before either sniffs the majors. I'll even double that bet on Groome making it up before either of the other two get to start a game (that's a hedge on Kopech's future role, there). This stuff.. happens... every.... year. So even though he appears to be a little on the fragile side, just having Pomeranz - a certified MLB ready starter - looks increasingly like a strong move. That's unless DeMaineAh has used his gris-gris to send the guy straight into the clutches of doc Andrews. Well you are right on Espinosa and probably Kopech this year but by selling off our top prospects we are now empty in the tank. We took the risk in acquiring a couple of pitchers depleting the farm. Injury to Price may keep him out for the better part of 2 seasons with no guarantee that he will be back throwing "bee bees". That's baseball and its ephemeral nature.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 2, 2017 21:40:22 GMT -5
Look at it this way - say Dombrowski had refrained from trading Buchholz when he did and decided to wait out the market until spring training (which would have been prudent). Is there *anyone* who wants to make the case that you would trade Buchholz for Josh fng Tobias now? To be fair, the reason they traded Buchholz was to clear salary and get under the cap. Maybe if Price goes under the knife, ownership would now be willing to bite the bullet and go over the cap, but no way of knowing that. Which, by the way, the willingness is trade away the bulk of the farm system but refusing to spend over the cap is not a great look.
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Post by tookme55 on Mar 2, 2017 21:55:18 GMT -5
$12.5M for #7 starter? I'm glad you're not managing my money. What a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacks on this board. Trade was the right thing to do.
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Post by doctorduck21 on Mar 2, 2017 22:00:03 GMT -5
Wasn't the point of staying under the tax this year to reset the penalty for future years? I remember reading/hearing about that this offseason but I could be wrong
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Mar 2, 2017 22:29:25 GMT -5
Wasn't the point of staying under the tax this year to reset the penalty for future years? I remember reading/hearing about that this offseason but I could be wrong You're not wrong...
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 2, 2017 22:34:09 GMT -5
The MRI results showed fluid build up and swelling. They deemed it to be inconclusive. We don't know TJS will be required but forearm tightness, sore elbow and James Andrews are never things you want to hear.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 2, 2017 22:37:42 GMT -5
Btw the second opinion is being sought because the results were inconclusive not because they wanted to confirm what they saw.
Reports are that the last 2 days he's been doing treatments and things have been positive.
Basically, we don't know much but it's not time to jump off the cliff yet... first real story of the year tho so it gets the juices flowing.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Mar 2, 2017 23:49:01 GMT -5
No, you can't possibly agree with your own argument - to wit, it would require you to hold that Buchholz's present value would be unchanged from Buchholz's value in December (presuming Price is lost for year). That's patently absurd. Would Brock Holt's value remain unchanged if Pedroia tears his ACL? Travis's value if Ramirez is lost to shoulder surgery? Swihart's value if Leon or Vazquez either get hurt or are unplayable? What if one or more of Wright/Pomeranz/Rodriguez are hurt (which I'd say is well above 50% probability)? My point is that even if you had put the odds of Price at getting seriously injured at 0 - the smart play was to hold on to Buchholz through spring (this you agree with); serendipitously, *due to Price's injury*, it's even a smarter play. Henry said publicly there is no "mandate" wrt CBT; I'll translate and surmise that there is a very strong preference to get under, but *not at the cost of the season* (Henry's well aware of the vagaries of the injury gods) - that is the inescapable logic of the foolish path that Dombrowski has pursued - gut the farm system, fail to ink team-friendly extensions; so that the Red Sox "go for it now" - this team has a 3-year window, you can't afford to throw away a year because of the CBT. In addition Buchholz would not have been the only option to move to get under the CBT; there's a certain not-very-valuable pitcher, one the flackeys still insist is "elite", who a. makes more than Buchholz b. has consensus WAR projections less than Buchholz's could of moved him Yea trade our closer instead of our #7 starter, that makes total sense. How many teams have 12.5 million currently in budget to trade for a starter? You seem to be leaving that out of your thought process.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Mar 2, 2017 23:53:01 GMT -5
Disappointing news regarding David Price. Have a feeling it's going to be one of those injury plagued type of seasons. The lineup was pretty healthy last year. I hope that Pedroia and Hanley can stay healthy this season.
The only way this works out with Price is if it's a minor injury, he gets a couple of months off and he comes back fresh and with his innings well below his norm come October. I think the heavy workload he usually carries with him is as much a reason for his October struggles as anything else. Perhaps a lower amount of innings pitched come October keeps him fresh.
Of course that's the silver lining. My guess is - and that's all we can do right now is guess - is that he will need TJ surgery now or pretty soon. We watched John Lackey try to valiantly pitch through the pain in 2011 and that was a train wreck. I'm hoping we don't get that from Price or else two seasons will be wasted.
It stinks that when the team didn't really try to replace Ortiz's bat the best they could (for the same reason they didn't hang onto Buchholz - to stay under the cap for a season so they can splurge in the future - a reasonable gamble to take), they were staking their season on having the best top 3 in the majors.
Now Price is likely injured for a good chunk of the season if not more, Porcello will most likely regress, and now they have to hope that Pomeranz is either healthy or effective, two things he really wasn't with the Red Sox last year - and his all-star appearance doesn't change that. They also have injury question marks with how strong Wright's shoulder will be and if E-Rod will have any further knee issues. At this point Kyle Kendrick could be a crucial piece of depth as it looks pretty obvious that Owens will contribute nothing and Johnson probably won't be much better. Elias can't be relied on. The intriguing x-factor is Hector Velazquez.
The Sox can survive and perhaps even thrive for a few months without Price, but if he is injured/ineffective, that has a ripple effect on the bullpen as well as Price was great for soaking up innings. Fortunately Porcello and Sale should be able to eat up innings, but that means more of Heath Hembree and Matt Barnes I guess.
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Post by libertine on Mar 3, 2017 0:14:38 GMT -5
Yeah, terrible news on Price. Hope it isn't the worst case scenario and we still see him at some point this season. Doesn't sound good though.
We won the division with Porcello and a sub-par Price last season. No reason to think we can't win it with Sale (who should be better than Price was last season) and Porcello (even if he regresses a bit) if Price does have to miss the whole season. I think this line-up will score more than enough runs, even without Papi, for us to win the division/make the postseason even without Price if that is the case. With a big caveat of contingent on no more serious injuries to any of our core players.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 3, 2017 5:41:03 GMT -5
To be fair, the reason they traded Buchholz was to clear salary and get under the cap. Maybe if Price goes under the knife, ownership would now be willing to bite the bullet and go over the cap, but no way of knowing that. You should read what I wrote more closely; nothing I wrote presumes oracular powers from Dombrowski; but here's one thing that doesn't require a crystal ball - there will be a handful of starting pitchers that will be seriously injured in spring training (Price makes it at least 2 already and it's just turned March). This puts one in a better position to get something of value for Buchholz; Buchholz's contract isn't underwater - why do you think the Phillies traded for him? It's not a secret - it's because they believe they can move him at the deadline *for something better than the flotsam they gave the Red Sox* So that also could have been the Red Sox's backup plan even if it magically turned out they couldn't have taken advantage of the inevitable spring injuries. All it would have required was patience and competence, which the present GM lacks ; then given the bad news, they either a. could keep Buchholz and be thankful for their backup or b. if they care so much about the CBT, go ahead and move him for something certainly no worse than Tobias. Yes, Dombrowski is incompetent, but he isn't a masochist There are usually about zero teams willing to add $13.5 million to payroll in spring training. To trade Buchholz now would likely require eating salary, which they weren't in the position to do if they wanted to get under the cap. They still have 5 starters better than Buchholz, even if Price has to get TJS.
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