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4/21-4/23 Red Sox @ Orioles Series Thread
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Post by thursty on Apr 25, 2017 10:24:27 GMT -5
Baseball needs more bad blood, not less.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 25, 2017 10:33:59 GMT -5
Baseball needs more bad blood, not less. More bad blood, but less actual blood. Rivalries make the game better, injuries make it worse. That's why it's crazy that bat flips and fist pumps are taboo but throwing at dudes and takeout slides are just old-fashioned fun.
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Post by jmei on Apr 25, 2017 10:55:50 GMT -5
My sense is that very, very few pitchers actually go out and aim at a guy's head. But if you're aiming at his back, it's a very real risk that you might miss your location and come very close to hitting a guy in the head. Trying to hit someone is not a pitch anyone practices, and most pitchers aren't all that accurate with pitches that they do practice. That's why the retaliation system is dumb. Even if you're aiming to just plunk a batter in the ***, there's a real chance you might miss and put a guy's health at risk. So then the Red Sox should just take whatever Machado does to hurt fielders while sliding since MLB won't stop it. Did throwing at Machado stop anything? Absolutely not. If anything, it's now more likely that Red Sox players get spiked or thrown at going forward. You know what might have actually done something? Petitioning the league office, saying a bunch of stuff to the media, but not throwing at him. If anything, the fact that they threw at him made it less likely that Machado got any punishment.
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Post by jmei on Apr 25, 2017 11:04:25 GMT -5
I think under the current rules, the runner at first base should have been ruled out and Machado should have received a modest fine. Of course, that did not ultimately happen. The fact that our institutions are imperfect does not mean that we should resort to vigilante justice. The reaction to, say, a guilty man being found innocent is not to go out and lynch him; it should be to do what we can to make sure the rules work better next time (in this case, have Farrell and the players publicly voice their grievances, as opposed to beaning him and losing the moral high ground). Did throwing at Machado get Pedroia on the field sooner? Did it help the Red Sox at all? I'm not sure there's any deterrent effect. Meanwhile, I think it's close to a guarantee that a Red Sox hitter gets plunked by an Orioles pitcher this season as a result of yesterday's game. Yet, we have a situation where the initiator of all the problems will apparently go without penalty. I ask, is that justice? I think calling it vigilante justice is a misnomer also. These matters have been handled previously within the group and things return to normal. I share your concern for safety, and I do think that is a priority. The fact that Machado has had previous, documented misconduct, along with the league not mentioning that, is upsetting to me. Let's hope it ends after Barnes. The hallmark of justice is that grievances are heard by a neutral party (i.e., the umpires and the league). Going out and throwing at him is appointing yourself judge, jury and executioner. At best, it's petty, and it didn't have any tangible effects other than getting Barnes suspended and making the Red Sox feel better.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 25, 2017 11:05:12 GMT -5
Yet, we have a situation where the initiator of all the problems will apparently go without penalty. I ask, is that justice? I think calling it vigilante justice is a misnomer also. These matters have been handled previously within the group and things return to normal. I share your concern for safety, and I do think that is a priority. The fact that Machado has had previous, documented misconduct, along with the league not mentioning that, is upsetting to me. Let's hope it ends after Barnes. The hallmark of justice is that grievances are heard by a neutral party (i.e., the umpires and the league). Going out and throwing at him is appointing yourself judge, jury and executioner. At best, it's petty, and it didn't have any tangible effects other than getting Barnes suspended and making the Red Sox feel better. And in this case it pretty clearly didn't have that effect either.
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Post by thursty on Apr 25, 2017 12:01:15 GMT -5
Just stop with the strained analogies and hysteria, as if MLB ballparks are some modern-day Flanders, bodies mutilated and disfigured from all those intentional HBPs.
Do you really not understand that the laws governing a *sport* need not be the same as those governing a society?
What Pedro Martinez did to Karim Garcia was objectively vile and reprehensible (and totally in character). Yet we watched, unable not to.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 25, 2017 12:32:03 GMT -5
I'm pretty neutral in this discussion but has there ever been bad blood in baseball between teams without some Sort of extra curricular activities?
Tampa and the Sox had bad blood and the series were exciting back when we'd beat the bag out of them constantly because of the extra curricular activities between teams.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Apr 25, 2017 14:17:28 GMT -5
So then the Red Sox should just take whatever Machado does to hurt fielders while sliding since MLB won't stop it. Did throwing at Machado stop anything? Absolutely not. If anything, it's now more likely that Red Sox players get spiked or thrown at going forward. You know what might have actually done something? Petitioning the league office, saying a bunch of stuff to the media, but not throwing at him. If anything, the fact that they threw at him made it less likely that Machado got any punishment. It sent a very clear message. You play dirty and we will respond. They just handled it about as bad as any team could. You're literally arguing against the way Baseball has been played forever. I would rather they hit the guy then whine about it to the media. Should Hockey ban hits and fights next? Machado wasn't ever going to get punished and that's the whole point.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 25, 2017 14:34:05 GMT -5
So then the Red Sox should just take whatever Machado does to hurt fielders while sliding since MLB won't stop it. Did throwing at Machado stop anything? Absolutely not. If anything, it's now more likely that Red Sox players get spiked or thrown at going forward. You know what might have actually done something? Petitioning the league office, saying a bunch of stuff to the media, but not throwing at him. If anything, the fact that they threw at him made it less likely that Machado got any punishment. This sounds like my mom telling me to tell the teacher instead of fighting back when I was 8 years old. Sorry, but that's not how things work for everyone. I'm not even a violent person. I see it as defending the team since the league refuses to do it. You can think what you want, but it's not like you're everyone's moral authority.
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Post by telluricrook on Apr 25, 2017 18:01:56 GMT -5
Drill em in the ***
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Post by soxjim on Apr 25, 2017 18:39:22 GMT -5
Yet, we have a situation where the initiator of all the problems will apparently go without penalty. I ask, is that justice? I think calling it vigilante justice is a misnomer also. These matters have been handled previously within the group and things return to normal. I share your concern for safety, and I do think that is a priority. The fact that Machado has had previous, documented misconduct, along with the league not mentioning that, is upsetting to me. Let's hope it ends after Barnes. The hallmark of justice is that grievances are heard by a neutral party (i.e., the umpires and the league). Going out and throwing at him is appointing yourself judge, jury and executioner. At best, it's petty, and it didn't have any tangible effects other than getting Barnes suspended and making the Red Sox feel better. I think you are being way too harsh. We're not the ones being threatened out there. I don't think one can be necessarily wrong in believing Machado's slide was dirty and could have possibly resulted in Pedroia breaking his leg. If someone like Pedroia with age - breaks his leg - he could be done. I'm sure some of the player's look upon teammates as their family. IMO it sure would be hard to rely on mlb justice if for example in this case. Machado got off on a dirty play because of a technicality in the rules. If one were to feel that Machado was indeed dirty in this and the umpires didn't step up, what recourse do they have? Farrell talked Torre and Torre said he could do nothing, didn't he (because the slide was "legal.")? To make matters worse, Machado later said he would do the same slide again. So maybe this is a case of self-defense for the future meaning that maybe Machado won't do that dirty slide again? He could have broken Pedroia's leg on a poorly written rule and maybe Machado feels its okay to do it again. You and I aren't out there. Maybe they feel Machado would have done it again thus they felt a need to try to "convince him" to not go that far next time. What could the league do? They said the slide was legal when Farrell spoke to Torre, didn't they? I can have my opinion changed on this but Machado's bravado may be a fear factor with opposing player's and the league possibly can't do anything unless the rules are broken.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 26, 2017 6:38:43 GMT -5
So all this debate about whether or not Barnes should have thrown at Machado but I don't think we have touched on Pedroia throwing his team under the bus in the heat of the moment and kissing Machado's ***. I know it's sacrilegious to criticize Pedey but that wasn't very good leadership if you ask me. He pretty much abandoned his teammates who were trying to stick up for him and jumped in bed with the enemy.
I mean guys were literally getting face to face on the field and Pedey is on the top step yelling to Manny "it wasn't me - it was them" and is pointing to his teammates. What in the hell is that? It really was piss poor and if it doesn't divide the Clubhouse they will be lucky. What an awful display by our supposed leader. Terrible.
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Post by sarasoxer on Apr 26, 2017 8:48:56 GMT -5
Pedroia was the one injured and obviously the closest to the play. He didn't think it was dirty. The replay will be interpreted the way the viewer is predisposed or wants to see it.
For some, had the situation been reversed, a Pedey such slide would have been seen as good, clean baseball... and an Oriole throwing at him, a Cretan..."This doesn't end here"...would be the cry.
Just like a famous Boston announcer once said "A good fight never spoiled a hockey game for me..."..some people would rather conjure bad blood because it appeals to baser instincts and makes the games more interesting.
Pedroia was honest, forthright and bigger than the 1950s manufactured situation. He felt his teammates had thrown him under the bus.
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Post by jmei on Apr 26, 2017 9:10:49 GMT -5
You know what's bad leadership? Not consulting the victim before retaliating on his behalf.
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Post by jbuttah on Apr 26, 2017 9:54:17 GMT -5
You know what's bad leadership? Not consulting the victim before retaliating on his behalf. Are you talking about Farrell? Because Barnes is not suppose to be a leader on this team. If he is assuming leadership of this team, then Pedroia should've talked to his team about not wanting to retaliate before anything could happen. Once it did happen, he needs to be on the same page as his team.
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Post by sarasoxer on Apr 26, 2017 10:28:50 GMT -5
You know what's bad leadership? Not consulting the victim before retaliating on his behalf. Are you talking about Farrell? Because Barnes is not suppose to be a leader on this team. If he is assuming leadership of this team, then Pedroia should've talked to his team about not wanting to retaliate before anything could happen. Once it did happen, he needs to be on the same page as his team. Yes, no, maybe. Under baseball machismo, perhaps it is understood that retaliation would happen, but didn't Pedey comment after the play that he didn't have an issue? Wasn't that a message to the team? I think Barnes/Farrell took it upon themselves to rectify the perceived "disrespect" via unwritten rules for a play that was not blatantly dirty. Barnes's action was blatant and we are lucky Machado didn't get hit in the head. Imagine what the fine/suspension would have been then?
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 26, 2017 10:35:23 GMT -5
Also, it's Pedroia -- not Farrell or Barnes -- who is likely to get the re-retaliation. There are times when it's right to keep things in house and keep a unified message. And other times when leadership is saying publicly "hey, we're in the wrong here and we handled this poorly."
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 26, 2017 11:32:03 GMT -5
Also, it's Pedroia -- not Farrell or Barnes -- who is likely to get the re-retaliation. There are times when it's right to keep things in house and keep a unified message. And other times when leadership is saying publicly "hey, we're in the wrong here and we handled this poorly." Why does any response need to be public? That's the opposite of how you should handle internal team issues which is exactly what this is.
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Post by Coreno on Apr 26, 2017 11:55:30 GMT -5
Also, it's Pedroia -- not Farrell or Barnes -- who is likely to get the re-retaliation. There are times when it's right to keep things in house and keep a unified message. And other times when leadership is saying publicly "hey, we're in the wrong here and we handled this poorly." Why does any response need to be public? That's the opposite of how you should handle internal team issues which is exactly what this is. Bolded the point of James' post that you seem to be missing.
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Post by thursty on Apr 26, 2017 12:01:42 GMT -5
Pedroia (to Machado) on the field:
"I would have hit you yesterday (Saturday) . . . You know that and I know that"
It would appear the Russian trolls are back.
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Post by rjp313jr on Apr 26, 2017 12:02:25 GMT -5
Why does any response need to be public? That's the opposite of how you should handle internal team issues which is exactly what this is. Bolded the point of James' post that you seem to be missing. First I hate that you can't see bold on the app. Second, I didn't miss that point in the least bit. In fact, that point, if you choose to believe it, is all the more reason why he didn't have to say a thing. He wasn't playing so there was no chance of retaliation that game. Therefore, he could have privately handled it with Machado. I'm fairly certain Pedroia has a phone.
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Post by sarasoxer on Apr 26, 2017 12:11:26 GMT -5
Pedroia (to Machado) on the field: "I would have hit you yesterday (Saturday) . . . You know that and I know that" It would appear the Russian trolls are back. Oh boy...
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Post by sarasoxer on Apr 26, 2017 12:23:33 GMT -5
I am waiting for someone to claim that the slide was ruled "legal", no penalty imposed on Machado, and Barnes suspended because Torre, with Yankee affiliation, has it in for the Sox.
'Pedroia should have done this, Pedroia shouldn't have done that', yada, yada. The world is imperfect.
It was a minor incident that the Sox elevated unnecessarily.
This horse has been beaten silly.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 26, 2017 12:59:59 GMT -5
I am waiting for someone to claim that the slide was ruled "legal", no penalty imposed on Machado, and Barnes suspended because Torre, with Yankee affiliation, has it in for the Sox. 'Pedroia should have done this, Pedroia shouldn't have done that', yada, yada. The world is imperfect. It was a minor incident that the Sox elevated unnecessarily. This horse has been beaten silly. If unwritten rules are no longer allowed under any circumstances, there have to be written rules that covers everything to prevent any perceived "need to retaliate". They haven't come anywhere close to that. Meanwhile, Pedroia is hurt and will probably come back and play through it and be mediocre for half the season and then get surgery in the offseason. That slide was unnecessary and Machado has an extensive history of trying to hurt other players with ridiculous bullspit. He gets zero benefit of the doubt. The league can stop this if they stop the Machados of the league from giving pitchers a reason to throw at them. The answer is not in banning retaliating. It's in preventing the initial incident or punishing the initial incident.
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Post by sarasoxer on Apr 26, 2017 13:24:24 GMT -5
You hit on part of the issue IMO....Machado's prior conduct. For many he does not get the benefit of doubt here and the 'punishment' meted out was partly retaliation for past misdeeds.
For me the litmus is if people would have their same position uttered at the same decible level if the players' roles were reversed.. Pedey spiking Machado. If so, OK. If not then the position doesn't hold water for me.
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