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Tyler Thornburg (6/15 edit: out for 2017 season)
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Post by geostorm on Jun 5, 2017 11:14:14 GMT -5
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Post by notguilty on Jun 5, 2017 11:30:35 GMT -5
As we well know by now, one more prospect, or one less, makes no difference really. This Coca kid isn't helping us win now. The Brewers can have him. The Red Sox are GFIN mode! /End of sarcasm.
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Post by ramireja on Jun 5, 2017 11:36:33 GMT -5
Ouch, I had also forgotten there was a PTBNL. I can't believe this was a 4 to 1 trade in which one of our four was a major league talent! Thats kind of crazy. A lot of the damage has been done, and this is a no-brainer comment, but Dave needs to be really careful in meeting other team's requests for those 3rd and 4th pieces. Then again, I can't even understand why we needed to include 3rd or 4th pieces at all. Shaw for Thornburg straight-up doesn't seem outlandish.
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Jun 5, 2017 11:45:27 GMT -5
John Henry made his fortune and reputation as a trader, there is no way he can be pleased with the constant drumbeat of Dombrowski paying a premium to be sure he gets his man only to see the same mistake time and time again (injured player comes back for premium prospect defeating both the Win Now and Keep Assets for later use positions). Good traders are merciless when it comes time to cut bait (think Belichick for the sports equivalent), have to wonder if the clock is ticking for DD.
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 5, 2017 11:58:50 GMT -5
John Henry made his fortune and reputation as a trader, there is no way he can be pleased with the constant drumbeat of Dombrowski paying a premium to be sure he gets his man only to see the same mistake time and time again (injured player comes back for premium prospect defeating both the Win Now and Keep Assets for later use positions). Good traders are merciless when it comes time to cut bait (think Belichick for the sports equivalent), have to wonder if the clock is ticking for DD. Maxwell I think you dropped the silver hammer on DD. I agree with the first part but DD is the new man on campus. Final grades are not in.
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Post by ramireja on Jun 5, 2017 12:03:21 GMT -5
On the bright side.....its a wonder we still have Bryan Mata. So happy he wasn't included as a 4th throw-in before he amounted to anything as a prospect.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 5, 2017 15:07:24 GMT -5
On the bright side.....its a wonder we still have Bryan Mata. So happy he wasn't included as a 4th throw-in before he amounted to anything as a prospect. Worth reminding everyone that Mata's an example of Dombrowski not actually subscribing to "trade every prospect," as he gave him (essentially) as an example of a guy the declined to include in one of the two winter meetings deals.
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Post by thebogeyman on Jun 5, 2017 18:25:48 GMT -5
On the bright side.....its a wonder we still have Bryan Mata. So happy he wasn't included as a 4th throw-in before he amounted to anything as a prospect. Worth reminding everyone that Mata's an example of Dombrowski not actually subscribing to "trade every prospect," as he gave him (essentially) as an example of a guy the declined to include in one of the two winter meetings deals. Is it though? All it really shows is that DD believes he doesn't have enough track record/value to get something back that is worth what he perceives is his upside. Just because he wouldn't trade him as a 5th piece/ throw-in to a deal, doesn't mean he won't trade him in the future if his value grows.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Jun 5, 2017 20:53:40 GMT -5
DD has made 2 very good trades in the 4 for 1 deals. the Sale trade cannot be dismissed as an overpay considering his worth to the team and team control for a reasonable contract and the Kimbrel trade is looking almost like a steal, but the Thornburg trade has been a total swing and a miss. shaw was an excellent player last year untill he faded at the end. there is no reason to think he wouldn't adjust to prevent that from happening this year. to add Dubon and Pennington and now Coca. that is a definite overpay and makes this a stinkeroo trade. We have basically traded a 10 homer and 40 RBI guy plus a solid infield prospect along with a promising pitcher and a raw but interesting young infielder for NOTHING!!!!!
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jun 6, 2017 7:48:31 GMT -5
I did not like the Coca addition to this trade.
I was a proponent of the deal when it was made figuring that the Red Sox got one of the best relievers in 2016 who has control for a few more years for a guy who was bad enough to lose his job, a replacement level player in Shaw.
If the deal was Shaw, coming off a season in which he lost his job, for Thornburg, coming off a season in which he was an excellent relief pitcher, then I would make that trade any day.
So it made sense to me the Brewers would want Dubon to even things up in the deal. Dubon projects to be a 2b starter on a second division team, in other words, a good player, but not somebody who's going to dislodge Pedroia off of 2b unless he gets injured.
Ok, I can live with that. 2nd division 2b types aren't impossible to replace.
The Brewers also got Pennington. Alright, he's a lottery ticket, one whose ceiling is Thornburg and his odds of reaching it aren't THAT great. So ok, Shaw, Dubon, and Pennington for Thornburg.
I look at that going into 2017 and think the Red Sox got a valuable reliever. Obviously they must have a brilliant plan for 3b if they're dealing away Shaw AND Moncada. But I'm thinking if Kimbrel somehow isn't declining, they'll have a great one-two punch with Thornburg and Kimbrel or maybe even Thornburg replaces Kimbrel if Kimbrel's 2016 was a trend, and not an injury related performance. I mean, I've had the same thought about Carson Smith and Kimbrel, and Edward Mujica and Koji before that. At some point getting a very good setup/closer has to work out, right?
But Thornburg gets injured, don't know when he'll pitch again or how effective he'll be when he gets back. Shaw is reenacting last season before he started to be horrendous. Dubon is being Dubon and should be up in the majors at some point soon. I don't think Pennington has pitched this season due to injury.
And now the Red Sox really tip the trade Milwaukee's way with the inclusion of Yeison Coca. He's a small kid with a lot of pop, and he has a possibility of being a major leaguer some day, a SS with some speed and pop. He might never get out of AA, but this kid has a chance. He's not a throw-in, and yet, he's been thrown in.
With his inclusion, I have to wonder if Dombrowski hates middle infielders as I've seen Asauje, Dubon, Coca, and Moncada all dealt away and we're left hoping Lin's season isn't a mirage or that Chatham can actually stay healthy enough to actually play and let us know if he really is a prospect (I assumed he was in a JJ Hardy type of way).
These types of guys can be fungible and easy enough to replace but if you keep dumping just about all of them, you get left with nobody to play 3b if Sandoval stinks or 2b if Pedroia should get injured or age - as he has no successor at any point soon in the system.
I don't like how badly Dombrowski thins out the system. Obviously you can't keep every middle infield prospect who has a legit shot of playing in the majors if you want to acquire talent, but to get rid of ALL of them?
All I can say is I hope that both Carson Smith and Tyler Thornburg come back healthy and dominate and turn the Red Sox into the 2014/2015 Royals where if you have a lead after six you've won the game.
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Post by jmei on Jun 6, 2017 8:33:21 GMT -5
The current situations at third base and second base at the MLB level should illustrate the value of the oft-denigrated second-division starter-types. You can't just find one win players lying around, and injury/performance attrition is very real and takes a relentless toll. Depth is important, especially young, cost-controlled depth with options and upside.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 6, 2017 8:44:27 GMT -5
Yep. Carlos Asuaje and Mauricio Dubon aren't going to win MVP or anything, but they'd be pretty keen right now.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 6, 2017 12:52:04 GMT -5
And here's why things like this matter. From yesterday's 108 Stitches:
Even if you would be of the mind that the inclusion of a Coca (or an Asuaje or a Vic Diaz, etc.) shouldn't hold up your acquisition of a player, eventually you've given chips away that could've been used elsewhere.
At the time of the Kimbrel trade, those of us who didn't love it felt that way because we felt the assets might've been better used elsewhere (not because there was dislike for Kimbrel as an acquisition). I distinctly recall someone (jmei?) saying that they would've rather save Margot for if they needed a starter at the deadline. Lo and behold, with Margot gone, the club needed to overpay for Pomeranz.
There's maybe a 5% chance Coca turns into a big leaguer. The odds are better he never gets past Portland than that he becomes a first division starter. But it's the fact that it's a resource that could've been deployed elsewhere (again, with only the one player coming back), that kills me.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 6, 2017 13:02:51 GMT -5
And here's why things like this matter. From yesterday's 108 Stitches: Even if you would be of the mind that the inclusion of a Coca (or an Asuaje or a Vic Diaz, etc.) shouldn't hold up your acquisition of a player, eventually you've given chips away that could've been used elsewhere. At the time of the Kimbrel trade, those of us who didn't love it felt that way because we felt the assets might've been better used elsewhere (not because there was dislike for Kimbrel as an acquisition). I distinctly recall someone (jmei?) saying that they would've rather save Margot for if they needed a starter at the deadline. Lo and behold, with Margot gone, the club needed to overpay for Pomeranz. There's maybe a 5% chance Coca turns into a big leaguer. The odds are better he never gets past Portland than that he becomes a first division starter. But it's the fact that it's a resource that could've been deployed elsewhere (again, with only the one player coming back), that kills me. Yes, all of this. Five years ago the Red Sox badly needed a temporary replacement at third base and were able to get Danny Valencia for Jeremidas Pineda. Coca is the exact sort of lottery ticket a team out of contention would trade a slightly above replacement player they no longer needed for. Over in the trade proposal subforum, Eduardo Nunez was suggested. Now, I have no idea if the Red Sox like Nunez or the Giants like Coca, but that's the sort of player the Red Sox need and the type of trade a team like the Giants, who are looking to rebuild, would likely be interested in. Nunez is a free agent so isn't going to help them in the future and isn't going to have a broad enough appeal that a ton of teams are going to be after him. He's a niche player who fits the niche the Red Sox need right now. I thought 4-for-1 for Kimbrel was nuts, but for Thornburg it is totally insane.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jun 6, 2017 14:02:54 GMT -5
The one thing that makes no sense is why Thornburgh cost so much. I get Kimbrel, with his track record. Thing is Thornburgh was great in 2013 and down right dominant in 2016. At the same time he wasn't that good in 2014 and 2015. It seems crazy to only look at 2016 and not the two years before that. If you were going to trade Shaw, you had to replace that depth.
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Post by gk2186 on Jun 15, 2017 14:13:51 GMT -5
Assume his year is over
Alex Speier @alexspeier
Red Sox announce that Tyler Thornburg will undergo thoracic outlet surgery on Friday.
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Smittyw
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Post by Smittyw on Jun 15, 2017 14:14:57 GMT -5
Welp.
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Post by tjb21 on Jun 15, 2017 14:25:25 GMT -5
Terrible news for Tyler.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 15, 2017 14:46:54 GMT -5
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Post by soxfanatic on Jun 15, 2017 15:14:56 GMT -5
The gift that keeps on giving.
Hope the best for him. Many pitchers never come back 100% after TOS.
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Post by bnich on Jun 15, 2017 15:27:30 GMT -5
Assume his year is over Alex Speier @alexspeier Red Sox announce that Tyler Thornburg will undergo thoracic outlet surgery on Friday. Didn't Matt Harvey have a similar surgery done a year or two ago? Potential for recovery? Timetable for recovery? I would assume everyone heals differently but does anyone have any examples?
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Post by Canseco on Jun 15, 2017 15:40:12 GMT -5
Nice to see another acquired arm wind up injured or greatly threatened. Price, Pomeranz, Smith, and now Thornburg. Oh, and our system has been severely thinned out thanks to some of these moves? Lovely!
Unless it's a can't-miss like a Pedro or Sale, I just don't prefer investing heavily in someone else's arm and the day-to-day unknowns coming with it. If it were my money, our own guys (*COUGH* Jon Lester *COUGH*) would be the types to get the huge pay days. We know what we have with them. No screwy medicals involved.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jun 15, 2017 15:46:20 GMT -5
Nice to see another acquired arm wind up injured or greatly threatened. Price, Pomeranz, Smith, and now Thornburg. Oh, and our system has been severely thinned out thanks to some of these moves? Lovely! Unless it's a can't-miss like a Pedro or Sale, I just don't prefer investing heavily in someone else's arm and the day-to-day unknowns coming with it. If it were my money, our own guys (*COUGH* Jon Lester *COUGH*) would be the types to get the huge pay days. We know what we have with them. No screwy medicals involved. The Red Sox have the best theoretical pitching staff in baseball.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 16:49:18 GMT -5
We all saw what Shaw did at the plate from about mid-May through September last year. No way anyone could have predicted this. I still think he's due for a huge regression. 25-year-olds hitting .250 in AAA tend not to become All Star caliber players in the majors like he has been this year.
I still like the trade. It didn't work, at least not this year, but it was a smart baseball decision at the time. Sometimes the breaks don't go your way. It happens.
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Post by ramireja on Jun 15, 2017 17:07:39 GMT -5
We all saw what Shaw did at the plate from about mid-May through September last year. No way anyone could have predicted this. I still think he's due for a huge regression. 25-year-olds hitting .250 in AAA tend not to become All Star caliber players in the majors like he has been this year. I still like the trade. It didn't work, at least not this year, but it was a smart baseball decision at the time. Sometimes the breaks don't go your way. It happens. Do you really think Thornburg's season justified a 4-1 swap though? Regardless of what has transpired this year, I think many of us felt like this was an overpay at the time of the trade (and even moreso when we recently learned that Yeison Coca was part of the deal).
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