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6/19-6/21 Red Sox @ Royals Series Thread
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 22, 2017 7:30:26 GMT -5
Even if he's not going to use Kimbrel at all in the 8th (which is a mistake), letting Robby Scott face a right-handed batter with a SLG over .500 with the bases loaded and a two-run lead in the eighth inning is a disaster. 90% of managers use Kimbrel in the same way, but most don't use Scott to face Perez right there.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jun 22, 2017 8:32:07 GMT -5
I was down working at the office of our local non-profit, yesterday, watching the game with side glances. Barnes had just walked two, and Scott had come in to pitch. The board chair came in to chat. I turned back a few minutes later just in time to see that the bases were loaded and to watch Perez unload them. I flicked it off at that point
I had fooled myself into thinking that the team was playing the leveraging game with Kelly. Not so, apparently. They painted themselves into a corner and then nailed their shoes to the floor with the relievers. Not much surprise over the outcome.
Barnes has an awful time with his release point every so often, so the set-in-stone eighth inning role would seem to be a real stretch. It sure was yesterday. Nothing to do but sit back and wait for the ensuing disaster movie to unfold.
Kelly wasn't gold, but he worked his way out of the jam he inherited. But that's all you get, Joe.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 22, 2017 9:54:59 GMT -5
It's a shame that splits aren't split 3 ways. vs RHP, vs LHP, vs LOOGY
I bet just about every RHB is much better against LOOGYs than they are against all LHP.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jun 22, 2017 10:01:42 GMT -5
My mom knows nothing about splits and texted me "what is Farrell doing here with Scott?". That was an indictment in itself.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jun 22, 2017 10:24:31 GMT -5
I absolutely agree that JF has had to mix and match pitchers and position players all season, and that the Sox have hung in admirably despite that. At the same time, I am understanding on a deeper level the phrase "Farrell'd". In reality, guys like Hernandez, Marrerro, Rutledge, Travis, Velasquez, Scott, Taylor, Maddox, even Abad, have usually, within their limitations, performed quite well; as have Barnes, Hembree, Vasquez, Leon, Young, etc. In other words this team is more productive and solid than their injuries and issues would imply.
Those last two innings and a 6-4 loss are on JF. By converting just a few of those bone-headed losses to wins, the Sox would be leading the division comfortably. Sooo frustrating to watch. I have shut off the TV earlier and more often than I have in several years. My wife can't believe it. And NESN and the requisite Direct TV cost a small fortune out here in Cali.
It's not the team. I love this team. It's not all the injuries. I truly enjoy the significant contributions of Marrerro, Travis, Maddox, Velasquez, et al. as they adjust to the Majors and help the team. Sad to say, it is the still too frequent managerial decisions that decrease the odds of winning despite having a very good chance of victory.
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Post by jimed14 on Jun 22, 2017 15:10:34 GMT -5
108 Stitches:
Eduardo Rodriguez will throw two simulated innings at Fenway on Saturday; if that goes without a setback, he could be ready for a minor league rehab start as soon as next week.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 22, 2017 16:10:16 GMT -5
I absolutely agree that JF has had to mix and match pitchers and position players all season, and that the Sox have hung in admirably despite that. At the same time, I am understanding on a deeper level the phrase "Farrell'd". In reality, guys like Hernandez, Marrerro, Rutledge, Travis, Velasquez, Scott, Taylor, Maddox, even Abad, have usually, within their limitations, performed quite well; as have Barnes, Hembree, Vasquez, Leon, Young, etc. In other words this team is more productive and solid than their injuries and issues would imply. Those last two innings and a 6-4 loss are on JF. By converting just a few of those bone-headed losses to wins, the Sox would be leading the division comfortably. Sooo frustrating to watch. I have shut off the TV earlier and more often than I have in several years. My wife can't believe it. And NESN and the requisite Direct TV cost a small fortune out here in Cali. It's not the team. I love this team. It's not all the injuries. I truly enjoy the significant contributions of Marrerro, Travis, Maddox, Velasquez, et al. as they adjust to the Majors and help the team. Sad to say, it is the still too frequent managerial decisions that decrease the odds of winning despite having a very good chance of victory. So the players playing well is on the players. When the players don't play well, that's on the manager? To me, "this team is more productive and solid than their injuries and issues would imply" would be a ringing endorsement of the coaching staff, no?
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Post by soxjim on Jun 22, 2017 23:41:48 GMT -5
I absolutely agree that JF has had to mix and match pitchers and position players all season, and that the Sox have hung in admirably despite that. At the same time, I am understanding on a deeper level the phrase "Farrell'd". In reality, guys like Hernandez, Marrerro, Rutledge, Travis, Velasquez, Scott, Taylor, Maddox, even Abad, have usually, within their limitations, performed quite well; as have Barnes, Hembree, Vasquez, Leon, Young, etc. In other words this team is more productive and solid than their injuries and issues would imply. Those last two innings and a 6-4 loss are on JF. By converting just a few of those bone-headed losses to wins, the Sox would be leading the division comfortably. Sooo frustrating to watch. I have shut off the TV earlier and more often than I have in several years. My wife can't believe it. And NESN and the requisite Direct TV cost a small fortune out here in Cali. It's not the team. I love this team. It's not all the injuries. I truly enjoy the significant contributions of Marrerro, Travis, Maddox, Velasquez, et al. as they adjust to the Majors and help the team. Sad to say, it is the still too frequent managerial decisions that decrease the odds of winning despite having a very good chance of victory. So the players playing well is on the players. When the players don't play well, that's on the manager? To me, "this team is more productive and solid than their injuries and issues would imply" would be a ringing endorsement of the coaching staff, no? I get frustrated more often too. Maybe it's old age!!!!
I respect what JF has done. With that said - as James Dunne said 90% of the managers wouldn't have used Kimbrel either. Well those manger's are wrong. And JF just seems he doesn't "learn" or becomes "cautious." Or at least provide a good explanation. As a result, JF deserves the hit. Because 90% are wrong isn't an excuse to give Farrell a pass if he is in that 90% wrong group.
Was his excuse was he didn't want to use Kimbrel for 2 innings? If that is what he said -- then it just raises the concern more that he just is stubborn because he can't be that dumb to not know the question was also why have Kimbrel just pitch the 8th and then let someone else pitch the 9th vs the weaker batters?
Does anyone really think he is going to learn from this? OFC some of the posters on here feel Farrell walks on water-- but for some of us-- if we give Farrell an atta boy for using Kimbrel in the 8th earlier in the season -- and now he doesn't ofc it is going to be frustrating. And if he is THAT stubborn-- then it's a flaw to be concerned about going forward unless as mentioned before there will be some who feel Farrell should be immune to criticism. --
It might be that poster (gerry -- who was frustrated with Farrell) feels Farrell has flaws that he doesn't learn from. That's a bad recipe.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jun 23, 2017 0:24:12 GMT -5
I absolutely agree that JF has had to mix and match pitchers and position players all season, and that the Sox have hung in admirably despite that. At the same time, I am understanding on a deeper level the phrase "Farrell'd". In reality, guys like Hernandez, Marrerro, Rutledge, Travis, Velasquez, Scott, Taylor, Maddox, even Abad, have usually, within their limitations, performed quite well; as have Barnes, Hembree, Vasquez, Leon, Young, etc. In other words this team is more productive and solid than their injuries and issues would imply. Those last two innings and a 6-4 loss are on JF. By converting just a few of those bone-headed losses to wins, the Sox would be leading the division comfortably. Sooo frustrating to watch. I have shut off the TV earlier and more often than I have in several years. My wife can't believe it. And NESN and the requisite Direct TV cost a small fortune out here in Cali. It's not the team. I love this team. It's not all the injuries. I truly enjoy the significant contributions of Marrerro, Travis, Maddox, Velasquez, et al. as they adjust to the Majors and help the team. Sad to say, it is the still too frequent managerial decisions that decrease the odds of winning despite having a very good chance of victory. So the players playing well is on the players. When the players don't play well, that's on the manager? To me, "this team is more productive and solid than their injuries and issues would imply" would be a ringing endorsement of the coaching staff, no?
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jun 23, 2017 0:49:59 GMT -5
Not really. The performance of the backups that had to be used this year, as I stated, is better than hoped for, and have been good enough to usually give the team a chance to win; though still not to the level promised by the starters.
My frustration likely comes not from JF's holding the team together in tough times, but in his proclivity to still make questionable pitching and/or personnel changes. For several years intelligent boards like this had joined with disreputable talking heads to denounce JF's in game management. Some here suggested he would be a better manager if in game decisions, especially re: pitching changes, were handled by someone else. This year he seemed to be on a path to getting it right, making decisions which would help the team secure the win they worked for and likely deserved. Increasingly, though, he is again making decisions that have and/or could have cost games during a tight race.
I don't enjoy bashing Farrell at all, and get involved in negativity reluctantly. Yes, it's a sign of age, but also respect for the accomplishments of this team and staff. But this team would be in first place if JF hadn't made some in game decisions that ultimately cost wins. "Failure to learn" I guess describes it pretty well.
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 23, 2017 7:26:25 GMT -5
It's been a mixed bag with Farrell this year He's used Kimbrel in the eighth inning five times this year, and in tie games on the road three times, which has been fantastic. I've been a harsh critic of him over the years, and I think there are a lot of things he does wrong, but he's arguably using Kimbrel better than any other manager is using his best reliever. In some ways, having such a big gap from Kimbrel to the rest of his bullpen has forced his hand - I wonder if he'd have managed in such a proactive way if he still had his Tazawa security blanket. On the other hand, he still seems to operate on this outmoded notion that an inning "belongs" to a pitcher, and a guy who starts an inning deserves the chance to finish it. In a lot of way it's been his best season strategically, and the team's record in spite of some pretty rough injuries and a starting rotation that has underperformed as a group. But man, stuff like letting Robby Scott face the best right-handed power hitter on the opposing team with the bases loaded with a two-run lead in the eighth inning? It's understandable that people would get fired up over that.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jun 23, 2017 8:08:26 GMT -5
Well if it makes everyone feel better, the Sox lost first place with this loss but they gained a tie with first place all over again when the Yankees puked all over themselves last night.
The only thing that could of been better would be to see the Yankees lose while seeing one of their players grazing and eating grass again.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jun 23, 2017 9:44:28 GMT -5
Well if it makes everyone feel better, the Sox lost first place with this loss but they gained a tie with first place all over again when the Yankees puked all over themselves last night. The only thing that could of been better would be to see the Yankees lose while seeing one of their players grazing and eating grass again. So, tied for first place is a good place to start over. With Pedey hopefully back at 2nd, at Fenway, where the team and Porcello can get a win. Let's hope the NYFY continue to stumble.
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Post by soxjim on Jun 23, 2017 15:36:43 GMT -5
It's been a mixed bag with Farrell this year He's used Kimbrel in the eighth inning five times this year, and in tie games on the road three times, which has been fantastic. I've been a harsh critic of him over the years, and I think there are a lot of things he does wrong, but he's arguably using Kimbrel better than any other manager is using his best reliever. In some ways, having such a big gap from Kimbrel to the rest of his bullpen has forced his hand - I wonder if he'd have managed in such a proactive way if he still had his Tazawa security blanket. On the other hand, he still seems to operate on this outmoded notion that an inning "belongs" to a pitcher, and a guy who starts an inning deserves the chance to finish it. In a lot of way it's been his best season strategically, and the team's record in spite of some pretty rough injuries and a starting rotation that has underperformed as a group. But man, stuff like letting Robby Scott face the best right-handed power hitter on the opposing team with the bases loaded with a two-run lead in the eighth inning? It's understandable that people would get fired up over that. Better than Tito?
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 23, 2017 18:13:39 GMT -5
It's been a mixed bag with Farrell this year He's used Kimbrel in the eighth inning five times this year, and in tie games on the road three times, which has been fantastic. I've been a harsh critic of him over the years, and I think there are a lot of things he does wrong, but he's arguably using Kimbrel better than any other manager is using his best reliever. In some ways, having such a big gap from Kimbrel to the rest of his bullpen has forced his hand - I wonder if he'd have managed in such a proactive way if he still had his Tazawa security blanket. On the other hand, he still seems to operate on this outmoded notion that an inning "belongs" to a pitcher, and a guy who starts an inning deserves the chance to finish it. In a lot of way it's been his best season strategically, and the team's record in spite of some pretty rough injuries and a starting rotation that has underperformed as a group. But man, stuff like letting Robby Scott face the best right-handed power hitter on the opposing team with the bases loaded with a two-run lead in the eighth inning? It's understandable that people would get fired up over that. Better than Tito? Considering the circumstances, I actually might say so. It's easier to be aggressive with Miller when Allen is available behind him. Though Francona does do a really good job getting a lot of value out of Miller, I agree.
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Post by soxjim on Jun 23, 2017 23:04:27 GMT -5
Considering the circumstances, I actually might say so. It's easier to be aggressive with Miller when Allen is available behind him. Though Francona does do a really good job getting a lot of value out of Miller, I agree. I don't understand this. Why should it be "easier?" Why shouldn't it just "be" the right move? The Red Sox relievers are pretty good. Why can't the Red Sox be just as aggressive when the main point you do the move is to put your best relief pitcher against their best hitters? After Kimbrel does the 8th, the pretty good relievers of the Red Sox go up against the non-top-of-the order hitters vs the other team. Why is it any " easier" with Allen when the main idea is to put best vs best, then 2nd best vs best?
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Post by James Dunne on Jun 26, 2017 10:52:00 GMT -5
The Red Sox don't have a second best reliever anywhere near as good as Cody Allen. It's easier to deploy Miller in the highest-leverage non-ninth inning situations because he knows he has Allen available for the ninth. The ideal situation is to have the best reliever available for the highest leverage and a nearly-as-good reliever available to work the ninth (or vice versa), and that's what Francona has. Farrell doesn't have the luxury of a nearly-as-good reliever relative to Kimbrel so he needs to balance the risk of deploying Kimbrel early. The bullpen has been pretty good because it has depth. The back-end guys like Hembree and Boyer have been good. But after Kimbrel, the next-best xFIP is 3.50. Kelly has an awesome ERA but the K:BB ratio is terrifying
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 26, 2017 12:23:29 GMT -5
See, e.g.: www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2017/06/cleveland_indians_closer_cody_2.htmlAnd actually: www.espn.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/52781/bostons-bullpen-problem-it-needs-another-craig-kimbrelKeep in mind two things: 1) A manager doing something unconventional that backfires is more likely to lose his job for it than doing something conventional that backfires. There's a reason Bill Belichick is more willing to do things like go for it on fourth down than a lot of other NFL teams - because he's got the most job security of any coach in professional sports at this point. 2) This has been tried and it rarely works. For whatever reason, guys like to know ahead of time when they're coming in. The 2003 Red Sox were the Great Experiment in the "logical matchup, non-closer bullpen" and it backfired so spectacularly that they gave up on it by the end of May and traded for Kim, installing him as a traditional closer. I agree this makes no sense, but it is what it is. 3) Kimbrel clearly cares about being the ninth-inning guy.
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