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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 4, 2013 13:19:44 GMT -5
I hope not. Leave it at that. RDLR? BP. Myles? BP. Pat Light? BP, not Barnes.
Man am I looking forward to the MiLB package and the season getting started.. Like yesterday..
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 4, 2013 15:24:36 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong if these players turn out to be power bullpen arms. We all just saw how important great bullpen work is and having young cost controlled power arms (especially with options) is hugely valuable. Now, I realize bullpen arms are also theoretically the easiest thing to find and don't cost a lot, but that's besides the point. One of the benefits to having power prospects like Barnes and RDLR and maybe even Light is even if they don't' make it in the rotation there is a great likelihood that they can be power relievers.
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Post by ancientsoxfogey on Nov 4, 2013 17:36:40 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong if these players turn out to be power bullpen arms. We all just saw how important great bullpen work is and having young cost controlled power arms (especially with options) is hugely valuable. Now, I realize bullpen arms are also theoretically the easiest thing to find and don't cost a lot, but that's besides the point. One of the benefits to having power prospects like Barnes and RDLR and maybe even Light is even if they don't' make it in the rotation there is a great likelihood that they can be power relievers. From the discussion I've seen following my opening post, I realize I didn't make myself very clear. When I asked why there wasn't more thought/expectation of Barnes ending in the bullpen, I didn't mean it to refer to the organization's plans. I meant it to refer to this site. It is common around here, when a pitcher doesn't seem to be developing a variety of reliable pitches early on, for discussants to speculate about his bullpen potential or the likelihood that he ends up there. I have never heard any of this with Barnes and I was wondering why not. Since I asked the original question there have been a lot of good points made about the organization's time frame on Barnes and why it should be that way. But there has also been mixed opinion about Barnes' eventual suitability for the rotation versus the pen among the posters here. I had never seen any of that before.
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Post by hammerhead on Nov 5, 2013 7:26:52 GMT -5
Because you don't slot (or even discuss) the 19th overall pick to the bullpen this early in his pro career. He's right on schedule. You should only think about moving him to the pen if he stalls and begins to stagnate. He's far too valuable as a starter.
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Post by greatscottcooper on Nov 5, 2013 7:59:17 GMT -5
I don't understand why we would ever want to give up on Matt Barnes as a starter. Yes he has had his bumps and still needs to work on some things but it's not as if he hasn't had (to some degree) a steady progression of moving up the ladder and showing signs of improvement. I mean, just this past season he pitched in a AAA post season game and looked pretty good. \
I will say this about him in the bullpen however. He may or may not have the highest ceiling in the system, but he might have the highest one in the bullpen (if he goes that path) That fastball would play up REALLY well.
It will be interesting to see where next season takes him along with other high arms such as Webster, RDLR, OWENS, Britton etc etc. The pitching talent has peculated towards the top but was borderline ready to help out a big league club last year and I would suspect (hope) when someone in the rotation goes on the D.L. (god forbid but it's a good bet someone from the front 5 will at least miss some time) It will be interested to see who can step in. Webster kinda flopped with that chance this past year but I would suspect him or Barnes might have better success this year. The same could be said of the bullpen, I would suspect at some point next year Britton and RDLR could have significant impacts there.......but I highly doubt Barnes is going to find himself in the bullpen anytime soon. And if he does it will be near the end of the year when rosters expand.
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wcp3
Veteran
Posts: 3,814
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Post by wcp3 on Nov 5, 2013 8:57:45 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see where next season takes him along with other high arms such as Webster, RDLR, OWENS, Britton etc etc. The pitching talent has peculated towards the top but was borderline ready to help out a big league club last year and I would suspect (hope) when someone in the rotation goes on the D.L. (god forbid but it's a good bet someone from the front 5 will at least miss some time) It will be interested to see who can step in. Webster kinda flopped with that chance this past year but I would suspect him or Barnes might have better success this year. The same could be said of the bullpen, I would suspect at some point next year Britton and RDLR could have significant impacts there.......but I highly doubt Barnes is going to find himself in the bullpen anytime soon. And if he does it will be near the end of the year when rosters expand. I would think Britton is pretty much locked in as a relief pitcher at this point. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but if I'm remembering correctly he was significantly better as a starter the first time through a lineup. That indicated he would be better in relief, and that appeared to be the case in 21 innings out of the bullpen in Boston (17 Ks, 3.86 ERA). Because he developed multiple pitches as a starter, I have high hopes for him turning into a 7th/8th inning setup man, rather than a LOOGY. RDLR is a really interesting one to me. From what I've seen, he appears to be trending toward an ace reliever - his fastball could really play up out of the pen, and he really only has two above-average pitches - but you can't ignore the (SSS) success he had in the majors as a 22-year-old. I don't think you give up on him as a starter, but the thought of him coming out of the bullpen throwing 100 mph is very appealing. (And I think his stuff would play up in the pen a lot more than guys like Ranaudo and Webster.) I'm not sure I can ever remember this many explosive arms this close to the majors: Workman, RDLR, Webster, Barnes, Ranaudo, Britton, Owens, even Wilson. It will be fascinating to see how this all plays out.
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Post by rjp313jr on Nov 5, 2013 9:14:08 GMT -5
People haven't talked about Barnes that way because he was an expected starter from day 1 and it's too early to change that projection based on what we've seen. He's not on the 40 and he hasn't stalled out. Most prospects have struggles so nothing Barnes has done has altered things. People have obviously questioned if he ends up in the pen, etc, but it's not worth discussing at this stage because of what we know about the Sox line of thinking as stated above.
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Nov 8, 2013 9:31:12 GMT -5
I understand that they are different pitchers and different ages at different levels, but could Barnes be Henry Owens next year? Last year, Owens had a phenomenal 11.51 K/9 but he had an ERA of 4.87. Barnes' showed he could miss bats with impressive 11.25(ish) K/9, but still had a mediocre 4.13 ERA and both pitchers left something to be desired with their walk rates. They were both 2011 draftees and it has already been posted that Barnes was a late-bloomer in college so it might just be taking him time to truly "bloom" in pro-ball.
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Post by soxfanatic on Mar 3, 2014 16:29:22 GMT -5
Pete Abraham ?@peteabe 2 min. #RedSox RHP Matt Barnes shut down for a few days. Tenderness in shoulder. Not scheduled to pitch this week.
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Post by rjp313jr on Mar 3, 2014 16:42:04 GMT -5
Shoulders...
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Post by JackieWilsonsaid on Mar 3, 2014 20:43:04 GMT -5
Not unusual.
Sounds precautionary
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Post by flredsoxfan on Mar 29, 2014 14:43:05 GMT -5
Not unusual. Sounds precautionary Anyone knows how Matt is doing?? What's wrong with his shoulder?
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Post by pedroelgrande on Mar 29, 2014 17:42:30 GMT -5
He pitched in a AAA game yesterday apparently so I guess he is doing better.
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Post by bcpatsox18 on Jul 13, 2014 9:47:35 GMT -5
Title says it all- the guy has a 5 ERA in AAA at age 24, has trouble repeating his delivery and although the fastball is great, the secondary stuff lags behind. When do we start thinking of him as a late-inning reliever (where his fastball plays up even more) than a starter? I think the transition should begin now, because right now he is behind Workman, De La Rosa, Owens, Johnson, Ranaudo, Webster, and even Steven Wright in pitchers I would want to start a game for me in the show currently
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Post by bigpupp on Jul 13, 2014 10:13:39 GMT -5
Title says it all- the guy has a 5 ERA in AAA at age 24, has trouble repeating his delivery and although the fastball is great, the secondary stuff lags behind. When do we start thinking of him as a late-inning reliever (where his fastball plays up even more) than a starter? I think the transition should begin now, because right now he is behind Workman, De La Rosa, Owens, Johnson, Ranaudo, Webster, and even Steven Wright in pitchers I would want to start a game for me in the show currently You don't start thinking about transition until you have to (i.e. He's out of options so we HAVE to do something.) Matt Barnes is literally years away from that. Let me just say this in general. Prospects struggle. They're supposed to struggle. If a team decided they were going to transition to a new role (or a brand new position for that matter) every player who struggled they would never produce anyone that was worth anything. So let Barnes struggle where he is. He isn't even on the 40 man roster yet, so in two years you can start to think about a transition.
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Post by jmei on Jul 13, 2014 11:18:51 GMT -5
You only think about transitioning him to the bullpen if you think he adds enough short-term value in the major league bullpen to make it worth forgoing whatever chance he has of sticking as a starter long-term.
With the major league team in its current situation and with Barnes in just his first exposure to AAA, it makes no sense to do that right now. The absolutely earliest it starts to be a real possibility is Spring Training 2015 (if the SP depth chart is still as robust as it is now, the Red Sox bullpen desperately needs another arm and free agent/trade options are unpalatable, and Barnes has shown no progression as a starter). But even then, as bigpupp alludes to, his potential as a starter is still significant enough to make it worth waiting until you absolutely have to make him a bullpen guy (due to his being out of options or having shown no progress for a much longer period of time).
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Post by godot on Jul 13, 2014 11:42:47 GMT -5
Why is it that if a starting pitcher shows signs he may not have the required skills and the like, the answer is "to the pen". The truth of the matter may be that they just suck. This will vary from pitcher to pitcher, but what are the signs that a pitcher who cannot hack it as a starter will do well as a relief pitcher?
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Post by amfox1 on Jul 13, 2014 12:09:17 GMT -5
This will vary from pitcher to pitcher, but what are the signs that a pitcher who cannot hack it as a starter will do well as a relief pitcher? 1. Some pitchers can ramp up their FB velocity for an inning or two but cannot maintain maximum velocity for more than 15-20 pitches. 2. Some pitchers only have two average-or-above pitches, which plays well in the bullpen, but not so much as a starter. Barnes' is still developing his secondary offerings and his command. He'll probably need another year at AAA before the organization even considers moving him to the pen.
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Post by godot on Jul 13, 2014 12:14:26 GMT -5
This will vary from pitcher to pitcher, but what are the signs that a pitcher who cannot hack it as a starter will do well as a relief pitcher? 1. Some pitchers can ramp up their FB velocity for an inning or two but cannot maintain maximum velocity for more than 15-20 pitches. 2. Some pitchers only have two average-or-above pitches, which plays well in the bullpen, but not so much as a starter. Barnes' is still developing his secondary offerings and his command. He'll probably need another year at AAA before the organization even considers moving him to the pen. Thanks, but how essential is control and command? If a pitcher shows these skills but is having problems with control and command, will they be successful in the pen, and can they learn command and control out of the pen? (Webster comes to mind as in this category).
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Post by jmei on Jul 13, 2014 14:25:37 GMT -5
Some pitchers are better able to harness their command/control out of the bullpen because only throwing short stints (and concentrating on one pitch-- their fastball) helps them maintain their mechanics-- think guys like Daniel Bard or Andrew Miller.
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Post by godot on Jul 13, 2014 14:36:51 GMT -5
Some pitchers are better able to harness their command/control out of the bullpen because only throwing short stints (and concentrating on one pitch-- their fastball) helps them maintain their mechanics-- think guys like Daniel Bard or Andrew Miller. Not really, sometimes they also change their mechanics, especially some of the tall guys as Randy Johnson. I believe Miller also changed his mechanics. If this is the result of pitching in short stints, I don't know, nit it wasn't for Johnson. Intuitively, though, it makes sense that concentrating on one pitch for short stints may help.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 13, 2014 14:46:25 GMT -5
Some pitchers are better able to harness their command/control out of the bullpen because only throwing short stints (and concentrating on one pitch-- their fastball) helps them maintain their mechanics-- think guys like Daniel Bard or Andrew Miller. Also, the increased velocity that tends to come with only throwing in short bursts makes precise command less important.
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Post by Chaz Fiorino on Jul 13, 2014 22:09:36 GMT -5
Barnes is 24 years old with only 15 career Triple-A starts. He is coming off a shoulder issue that kept him out the first month and a half of 2014. Let him work through it. No question he needs to improve his ability to hone his delivery and improve his secondary offerings. However, you don't give up on a guy with middle-back end rotation type projection this early in development. He's future very well may be in the bullpen. However, a future bullpen role for Barnes should be his floor. Give him every opportunity to reach his potential.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jul 13, 2014 23:19:59 GMT -5
Barnes is 24 years old with only 15 career Triple-A starts. He is coming off a shoulder issue that kept him out the first month and a half of 2014. Let him work through it. No question he needs to improve his ability to hone his delivery and improve his secondary offerings. However, you don't give up on a guy with middle-back end rotation type projection this early in development. He's future very well may be in the bullpen. However, a future bullpen role for Barnes should be his floor. Give him every opportunity to reach his potential. I think we're at least a year or so away from making that call. It's way too early.
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Post by jrffam05 on Jul 14, 2014 7:19:40 GMT -5
I agree, we are too far away to start talking about moving him, but he profiles well as a guy who would play up in the bullpen. Have him lose the change up and focus on pounding the strike zone with heavy fastballs.
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