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Post by telson13 on Aug 16, 2019 22:44:19 GMT -5
Ben Cherington, from July 2014 through the start of 2015, turned in probably the worst six months that a general manager could have. Castillo, the Sandoval and Ramirez signings, his decision not to pursue a frontline starter, the whole Lester thing, the way they handled the 2014 trading deadline (Lackey traded for MLB-ready help rather than the best prospects, Okajima and Tazawa not traded so as not to hurt their '15 chances). It was like cosmic retribution for all the 2013 moves working out at a level they had no right to. It is too bad that Rusney had to get entangled in cosmic retribution. Just totally out of his control. Well-put. I think Cherington’s best moves (and boy, are you right about the Lackey move, especially) were the ones he *didnt* make...like trading away Mookie and/or Bogey for guys like Cole Hamels. Hanley I genuinely thought would be solid to good, but Sandoval was a horrible move from the get-go. Incredibly ill-advised. They could really have reloaded there at the ‘14 deadline, a la NYY the following year. Especially if they’d gotten some AA/AAA talent that could’ve theoretically stepped in in ‘15-‘16. And not chasing Scherzer (which I was all about doing, over Lester) turned out to be a massive miscalculation too. They ended up with Price through DD, but Scherzer was a very good bet, and that’s proven to be a relative steal of a contract, given his incredible success. Poor MLB talent evaluation was always an issue for Cherington...should’ve at least stuck with his strength at the ‘14 deadline.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 16, 2019 22:57:09 GMT -5
For those that think I'm always a Red Sox fanboy, they must not have been around for 2014. The Grady Sizemore season, in which I screamed from opening day until they finally gave up on him that it was a god damn crime to go into a season counting on him to be the starting CF without a backup plan. And the Lackey trade was worse than the Larry Anderson trade in that everyone already knew it was a disaster at the time of the trade. Imagine trying to trade for ML talent only at the damn trade deadline when everyone wanted to improve their ML talent, not give it away.
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Post by soxfan511 on Aug 16, 2019 23:01:43 GMT -5
Cherrington should get blame for the trey ball pick as well. Especially when many Red Sox fans were screaming for Austin Meadows whose now dominant in TB and one of the big reasons they’re having such a great season. 2013 draft as a whole was terrible but still some good ballplayers went in the first round after the ball pick.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 16, 2019 23:03:26 GMT -5
Cherrington should get blame for the trey ball pick as well. Especially when many Red Sox fans were screaming for Austin Meadows whose now dominant in TB and one of the big reasons they’re having such a great season. 2013 draft as a whole was terrible but still some good ballplayers went in the first round after the ball pick. Yeah, that's been mentioned at least 10000 times on this website. Also, Meadows is one of about 200 major league players who would be worthless without the juiced ball that didn't exist in 2013.
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Post by soxfan511 on Aug 16, 2019 23:51:35 GMT -5
Cherrington should get blame for the trey ball pick as well. Especially when many Red Sox fans were screaming for Austin Meadows whose now dominant in TB and one of the big reasons they’re having such a great season. 2013 draft as a whole was terrible but still some good ballplayers went in the first round after the ball pick. Yeah, that's been mentioned at least 10000 times on this website. Also, Meadows is one of about 200 major league players who would be worthless without the juiced ball that didn't exist in 2013. Yeah sorry still haven’t gotten over it. I haven’t really thought about this whole juiced ball thing. Couldn’t one of our players take advantage of it, like Bobby Dalbec?
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Post by bluechip on Aug 17, 2019 2:14:03 GMT -5
Cherrington should get blame for the trey ball pick as well. Especially when many Red Sox fans were screaming for Austin Meadows whose now dominant in TB and one of the big reasons they’re having such a great season. 2013 draft as a whole was terrible but still some good ballplayers went in the first round after the ball pick. a lot of people on here didn’t care for Meadows, but that draft went very poorly with Clint Frazier being picked immediately before their pick. I wanted Meadows, but predicted Trey Ball might be picked, thinking it was something crazy.
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Post by chrisfromnc on Aug 17, 2019 6:01:45 GMT -5
Lots of hindsight helps us have clarity that Cherrington couldn’t have had on Castillo, Ball and others. I’m using Speiier’s book as my source here.
The Red Sox were not at all sure that Bradley would stick because of his problems at the plate. They were needing to replace/upgrade an outfield consisting of Ellsbury, Nava, Victorino, and Gomes. Considering that, it isn’t a dumb idea to collect guys like Castillo and Cespedes. Mookie was looking like a center fielder too. That was the position he was playing late in his tenure at Pawtucket.
Lackey was apparently telling the team he didn’t want to be in Boston. Given his large presence in the clubhouse as a prominent member of the beer and chicken gang, I think you have to unload him. It makes him kind of a jackasss in my opinion because nobody forced him to have the league minimum/injury clause in the contract.
Lester, yeah, they handled that as poorly as possible.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 17, 2019 6:25:30 GMT -5
Lots of hindsight helps us have clarity that Cherrington couldn’t have had on Castillo, Ball and others. I’m using Speiier’s book as my source here. The Red Sox were not at all sure that Bradley would stick because of his problems at the plate. They were needing to replace/upgrade an outfield consisting of Ellsbury, Nava, Victorino, and Gomes. Considering that, it isn’t a dumb idea to collect guys like Castillo and Cespedes. Mookie was looking like a center fielder too. That was the position he was playing late in his tenure at Pawtucket. Lackey was apparently telling the team he didn’t want to be in Boston. Given his large presence in the clubhouse as a prominent member of the beer and chicken gang, I think you have to unload him. It makes him kind of a jackasss in my opinion because nobody forced him to have the league minimum/injury clause in the contract. Lester, yeah, they handled that as poorly as possible. Lackey should have been traded to the highest bidder, not to the team willing to give up major league talent at the trade deadline when most teams wouldn't want to give up any major league talent. It was even dumber than the Orioles targeting DSL players in a trade because they want more international talent. There's no hindsight there because at least half the board screamed about it the minute the trade was announced.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Aug 17, 2019 6:26:55 GMT -5
Castillo now has five years of professional service
So I believe that 4th option year won't be there in 2020.
Edit: "If a player misses an entire option year due to injury or expends his third option year before he has completed five professional seasons (Major Leagues and Minor Leagues included), he can receive a fourth option year. "
Since he's already received a 4th option year, we can assume he keeps it. Can use it in 2020
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Post by swingingbunt on Aug 17, 2019 8:49:52 GMT -5
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 17, 2019 8:53:15 GMT -5
when many Red Sox fans were screaming for Austin Meadows I don't use "lol" unless I actually laugh out loud, so lol. Lackey should have been traded to the highest bidder, not to the team willing to give up major league talent at the trade deadline when most teams wouldn't want to give up any major league talent. It was even dumber than the Orioles targeting DSL players in a trade because they want more international talent. There's no hindsight there because at least half the board screamed about it the minute the trade was announced. Yeah, the reactions to the Lackey trade at the time were pretty scathing. But the Orioles didn't target DSL players in the Cashner trade because they wanted more International talent specifically. No idea where you're getting that from. Prado and Romero wasn't a crazy return at all for three months of a guy without much of a track record. If they'd traded him for Int'l money it wouldn't made a lot of sense, so all they needed was to like Prado and/or Romero more than what they'd have gotten on the 2019 market. Sucks for the new regime that Duquette missed the boat on all that opportunity in the first place, but that's no reason *not* to trade for them.
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Post by soxfan511 on Aug 17, 2019 9:29:20 GMT -5
when many Red Sox fans were screaming for Austin Meadows I don't use "lol" unless I actually laugh out loud, so lol. Lackey should have been traded to the highest bidder, not to the team willing to give up major league talent at the trade deadline when most teams wouldn't want to give up any major league talent. It was even dumber than the Orioles targeting DSL players in a trade because they want more international talent. There's no hindsight there because at least half the board screamed about it the minute the trade was announced. Yeah, the reactions to the Lackey trade at the time were pretty scathing. But the Orioles didn't target DSL players in the Cashner trade because they wanted more International talent specifically. No idea where you're getting that from. Prado and Romero wasn't a crazy return at all for three months of a guy without much of a track record. If they'd traded him for Int'l money it wouldn't made a lot of sense, so all they needed was to like Prado and/or Romero more than what they'd have gotten on the 2019 market. Sucks for the new regime that Duquette missed the boat on all that opportunity in the first place, but that's no reason *not* to trade for them. I could pull up a ton of threads on various soxboards with the large majority hollering for Austin Meadows
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Post by soxfan511 on Aug 17, 2019 9:30:00 GMT -5
Unfortunately some wounds never heal
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Post by maxwellsdemon on Aug 17, 2019 10:00:36 GMT -5
Time to put the three ball in the corner pocket and move on.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 17, 2019 10:20:01 GMT -5
I guess more importantly is that it doesn't really make sense to criticize an individual pick, especially when it's kind of an aberration. A pick is made as part of a process. The process that landed on Trey Ball was the same process that landed basically the entire lineup of the 2018 Red Sox, the best baseball team of the last 20 years. Every team misses on some picks, most teams miss on a lot more picks than the Red Sox have, and for people to be so hung up on this one pick for all these years kind of shows that off - people whine about it because it's really the only draft pick that makes sense to whine about.
Cherington did a really fantastic job building and maintaining a farm system that bore fruit after he left, and was poor at making MLB-centric moves. One Trey Ball doesn't change the former, just as one Koji Uehara doesn't change the latter.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 17, 2019 15:22:05 GMT -5
when many Red Sox fans were screaming for Austin Meadows I don't use "lol" unless I actually laugh out loud, so lol. Lackey should have been traded to the highest bidder, not to the team willing to give up major league talent at the trade deadline when most teams wouldn't want to give up any major league talent. It was even dumber than the Orioles targeting DSL players in a trade because they want more international talent. There's no hindsight there because at least half the board screamed about it the minute the trade was announced. Yeah, the reactions to the Lackey trade at the time were pretty scathing. But the Orioles didn't target DSL players in the Cashner trade because they wanted more International talent specifically. No idea where you're getting that from. Prado and Romero wasn't a crazy return at all for three months of a guy without much of a track record. If they'd traded him for Int'l money it wouldn't made a lot of sense, so all they needed was to like Prado and/or Romero more than what they'd have gotten on the 2019 market. Sucks for the new regime that Duquette missed the boat on all that opportunity in the first place, but that's no reason *not* to trade for them. When the Orioles announced the trade, they said specifically that they were trying to improve their international talent. I'm not sure why they'd say that if they weren't targeting DSL players. They should be trying to improve their farm system period. And also spending their international pool money that they've been wasting for a decade until very recently.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 17, 2019 15:22:54 GMT -5
I don't use "lol" unless I actually laugh out loud, so lol. Yeah, the reactions to the Lackey trade at the time were pretty scathing. But the Orioles didn't target DSL players in the Cashner trade because they wanted more International talent specifically. No idea where you're getting that from. Prado and Romero wasn't a crazy return at all for three months of a guy without much of a track record. If they'd traded him for Int'l money it wouldn't made a lot of sense, so all they needed was to like Prado and/or Romero more than what they'd have gotten on the 2019 market. Sucks for the new regime that Duquette missed the boat on all that opportunity in the first place, but that's no reason *not* to trade for them. I could pull up a ton of threads on various soxboards with the large majority hollering for Austin Meadows I'm still mad about Babe Ruth and Carlton Fisk.
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Post by Smittyw on Aug 17, 2019 16:20:05 GMT -5
Unfortunately some wounds never heal
Getting Benintendi in the same draft spot two years later didn't help "heal the wound" even a little?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Aug 17, 2019 16:47:00 GMT -5
I don't use "lol" unless I actually laugh out loud, so lol. Yeah, the reactions to the Lackey trade at the time were pretty scathing. But the Orioles didn't target DSL players in the Cashner trade because they wanted more International talent specifically. No idea where you're getting that from. Prado and Romero wasn't a crazy return at all for three months of a guy without much of a track record. If they'd traded him for Int'l money it wouldn't made a lot of sense, so all they needed was to like Prado and/or Romero more than what they'd have gotten on the 2019 market. Sucks for the new regime that Duquette missed the boat on all that opportunity in the first place, but that's no reason *not* to trade for them. When the Orioles announced the trade, they said specifically that they were trying to improve their international talent. I'm not sure why they'd say that if they weren't targeting DSL players. They should be trying to improve their farm system period. And also spending their international pool money that they've been wasting for a decade until very recently. Targeting very young players is probably your best shot at getting anything significant in return for Andrew Cashner.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,915
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 17, 2019 18:28:31 GMT -5
Don't the Sox have a guy named Rusney Castillo in AAA?
Replacing the final year of his contract with 3 x $5M makes no sense for the Sox. I do believe that the best fit for the last man on the bench next year is an OFer who can pinch-run and fits this equation (his defense, + offense versus RHP) > (JDM's outfield defense (*), plus Chavis's offense versus RHP). Which is to say, a guy whose defensive upgrade in the OF will be larger than his offensive downgrade when compared to Chavis at DH.
The thing is, Rusney will be 32 next year. He's very unlikely to still be the plus defender we saw when he was 27.
So you're talking about a cap hit of $5M a year for three years, and you can probably pick up a guy as good or better (almost certainly a LHB) for considerably less. And you can still consider Rodney for a bench spot when he's 33 and 34, with essentially no cap hit.
I think he has a coin-toss chance of being someone's 4th outfielder once his contract is up. If his dream was to play in MLB rather than make more money than he can probably spend, he ended up getting hosed by the fine print of the CBA.
(*) Because of the tax limit, if JDM exercises his option this winter, he's a goner. And I think he likes it here. I think they work out a contract extension that begins in 2021, which they can do because he also has the opt-out after 2020.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,915
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 17, 2019 18:55:55 GMT -5
Lots of hindsight helps us have clarity that Cherrington couldn’t have had on Castillo, Ball and others. I’m using Speiier’s book as my source here. The Red Sox were not at all sure that Bradley would stick because of his problems at the plate. They were needing to replace/upgrade an outfield consisting of Ellsbury, Nava, Victorino, and Gomes. Considering that, it isn’t a dumb idea to collect guys like Castillo and Cespedes. Mookie was looking like a center fielder too. That was the position he was playing late in his tenure at Pawtucket. Lackey was apparently telling the team he didn’t want to be in Boston. Given his large presence in the clubhouse as a prominent member of the beer and chicken gang, I think you have to unload him. It makes him kind of a jackasss in my opinion because nobody forced him to have the league minimum/injury clause in the contract. Lester, yeah, they handled that as poorly as possible. The other thing is, Rusney didn't turn out to be a total bust. Just a solid MLB 4th OFer who was being paid like a starter. If he'd signed with a team that didn't have cap problems, he would have gotten a second chance at MLB in 2017, and might well have ended up starting for a second-division club.
I've never been convinced that Lester didn't want to leave here to rejoin Theo, which is to say, I don't believe that they could have signed him for less than the Cubs paid him. They essentially traded him for Porcello, saving $6M per year against the limit, at a cost of 0.85 WAR per year (as of today). When you factor in the tax penalty, and the flexibility they got with the extra $6M, they probably got a little more bang for the buck with that move.
DDo not re-signing Rich Hill was a much bigger SP bungle -- even after he had signed Price. IIRC, I wanted him for two years (or one with a team option); he signed for 1/$6M and put up 6.4 WAR in his next two seasons.
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Post by soxfan511 on Aug 17, 2019 23:59:41 GMT -5
Unfortunately some wounds never heal
Getting Benintendi in the same draft spot two years later didn't help "heal the wound" even a little?
Oh it totally did. I think DD is a great drafter. But I can’t stand Cherington he deserved to get fired
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 18, 2019 0:17:22 GMT -5
Getting Benintendi in the same draft spot two years later didn't help "heal the wound" even a little? Oh it totally did. I think DD is a great drafter. But I can’t stand Cherington he deserved to get fired Benintendi was a Cherington pick. Dombrowski was hired in August. So far, his best draft pick has been Dalbec?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 18, 2019 11:41:47 GMT -5
The bets way to sum up this thread is-
Rusney Castillo has a future in baseball beyond this contract? That's news to me.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 18, 2019 20:12:24 GMT -5
Attempts and offers were made years ago to get him to rework his deal so that he could play at the Major league level. He refused all of them. There is too much bad blood now, He will be trapped in AAA until he is released. Do you have any links about the offers? Players aren't allowed to take less money, so I'm not sure how that would be possible. This is the first I've read about 'bad blood' (but would understand him being frustrated) This will be the first year the Red Sox can really try and negotiate something (given its an option year), which is why I broached the subject. Also, I can see JBJ being traded or non-tendered this off-season so a Rusney $15/3 deal plus a Holt $8/2 deal may be an upgrade (if Benintendi can still play CF) Brisox is a long-time poster who has proven to have folks with knowledge that he talks to in the past. YMMV, but I'm sure he's not talking out of his rear.
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