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Post by vermontsox1 on Mar 6, 2018 11:21:22 GMT -5
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Post by RedSoxStats on Mar 6, 2018 15:38:35 GMT -5
That Herald article seemed to have raised more questions than answers, but Houck told Chris Smith he's now a four-seam, slider, curveball and changeup guy. Also says he got with a nutritionist and is now up to 6'5, 225, after adding 10-15 this winter.
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Post by ramireja on Mar 8, 2018 14:33:01 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 8, 2018 14:54:08 GMT -5
Our scouting report on him, updated this morning, is already out-of-date. Cool.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 8, 2018 15:07:04 GMT -5
Are there any pitchers that throw both an elite slider and curve? I thought the problem was that they turn into similar pitches, thus the slurve.
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Post by James Dunne on Mar 8, 2018 15:19:01 GMT -5
Are there any pitchers that throw both an elite slider and curve? I thought the problem was that they turn into similar pitches, thus the slurve. Maddux, I guess? I mean, has any other pitcher had four elite pitches? I wouldn't even classify Pedro's slider as elite.
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Post by telson13 on Mar 8, 2018 16:11:05 GMT -5
It shouldn’t be lost in all of this, so I’m gonna throw it out there that Houck sounds incredibly coachable and highly motivated. Basically, they’ve told him they want to completely change his style, start throwing a 4-seam instead of sinker, add a curve, and alter his mechanics along with raising his arm angle. And instead of push-back, he gets curious about the data, tests it out, and starts throwing two new pitches on his own. That’s tremendous adaptability and desire. He’s certainly physically equipped for success...looks like he’s jumping whole-heartedly into any mental/training/skill-related edge he can get. I think that bodes very, very well for his success.
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Post by telson13 on Mar 8, 2018 16:16:14 GMT -5
Are there any pitchers that throw both an elite slider and curve? I thought the problem was that they turn into similar pitches, thus the slurve. Kershaw? I can’t think of anyone else if you’re using “elite” as the criterion. Syndergaard has the FB/SL, probably 80/70 respectively on the scale. Idk if you’d call his CB elite, but it’s probably plus. At 84-85 it’s the hardest curve in baseball.
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Post by iakovos11 on Mar 8, 2018 16:42:35 GMT -5
It shouldn’t be lost in all of this, so I’m gonna throw it out there that Houck sounds incredibly coachable and highly motivated. Basically, they’ve told him they want to completely change his style, start throwing a 4-seam instead of sinker, add a curve, and alter his mechanics along with raising his arm angle. And instead of push-back, he gets curious about the data, tests it out, and starts throwing two new pitches on his own. That’s tremendous adaptability and desire. He’s certainly physically equipped for success...looks like he’s jumping whole-heartedly into any mental/training/skill-related edge he can get. I think that bodes very, very well for his success. ^ THIS!
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Post by jmei on Mar 8, 2018 16:54:40 GMT -5
There aren't a ton of guys who throw both a slider and a curveball, but Kershaw, Madison Bumgarner, Carlos Carrasco, Justin Verlander, Robbie Ray fit the criteria of guys who generally throw both pitches around 15%+ of the time.
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Post by jiant2520 on Mar 8, 2018 22:28:40 GMT -5
Cory Kluber may have the best curve/slider in mlb.... at least last year.
Edit: There is an ESPN article on his strikeout % on each pitch, which were like 39% and 36% respectively... he does throw the curve way more though, but both pitches are elite. His fastball is good too....
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Post by jiant2520 on Mar 8, 2018 22:36:08 GMT -5
I think the article was "best put away pitches 2017"... I think.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 8, 2018 22:48:40 GMT -5
I guess I should have asked the question in a different way. Isn't it true that a team will discourage a pitching prospect from throwing both a curve and a slider because they are much harder to keep consistent when throwing both of them and they usually end up with two mediocre pitches that aren't different enough from each other? I know I didn't just make this up.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Mar 9, 2018 0:12:00 GMT -5
I guess I should have asked the question in a different way. Isn't it true that a team will discourage a pitching prospect from throwing both a curve and a slider because they are much harder to keep consistent when throwing both of them and they usually end up with two mediocre pitches that aren't different enough from each other? I know I didn't just make this up. Some pitchers do have that problem and I'm sure some organizations/coaches discourage throwing both, but for the most part I'd imagine it's something that's dealt with on an individual basis.
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Post by jimed14 on Mar 9, 2018 8:17:34 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Mar 9, 2018 10:06:07 GMT -5
The coaching when I was playing in high school was that with a curveball, you're pulling down a window shade, and with a slider you're turning a doorknob.
To be clear, I could throw neither. I recall throwing one good curveball in my life, in HS rec league, freezing a batter for strike three. I'm not sure I've ever felt more manly.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 4, 2018 12:17:38 GMT -5
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Post by ramireja on May 21, 2018 15:22:47 GMT -5
Statistically speaking, it's been a disappointing start to the season for Tanner Houck. That said, we know he has been open to and has made major changes to his pitch repertoire and mechanics. Couple that with the aggressive assignment to Salem to begin the season, and perhaps it's not all that much of a surprise that he's struggled. Alex Speier's recent edition of Minor Details sheds some light into his 2018 so far:
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Post by iakovos11 on May 21, 2018 15:29:35 GMT -5
Statistically speaking, it's been a disappointing start to the season for Tanner Houck. That said, we know he has been open to and has made major changes to his pitch repertoire and mechanics. Couple that with the aggressive assignment to Salem to begin the season, and perhaps it's not all that much of a surprise that he's struggled. Alex Speier's recent edition of Minor Details sheds some light into his 2018 so far: Thanks for linking this. I meant to over the weekend, but then forgot. I think it's important context to Houck's struggles so far this year. No guarantees he'll come around, but at least there appears to be a reason foe the slow start. In light of this, still wonder if more conservative placement to Greenville might have made more sense to begin the year.
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Post by telson13 on May 21, 2018 16:07:02 GMT -5
I’m not worried about Houck, for pretty much all of the reasons Speier covered. The negative reports I’d seen basically said he was struggling with FB command (not surprising given that half of them are moving totally differently than before), and that his breaking stuff wasn’t great (which would be unsurprising given the new CB). I’m actually glad they sent him to Salem...I’m sure they assured him he might struggle, but I think it shows that they have confidence in him figuring it out pretty quickly. I’m still high on him as a prospect; I don’t think a quarter season means much at all; once he starts getting a feel for the 4-seam and elevating it effectively, I think the HR problem will disappear, and I expect his final line to be 4.50 ERA/FIP, with over a K per inning and 4 walks/9. I also still think there’s a fair chance he bumps to Portland in August if he has a strong June-July run.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 21, 2018 16:51:46 GMT -5
In light of this, still wonder if more conservative placement to Greenville might have made more sense to begin the year. This. Not quite sure what the rush was to put Houck, Thompson, and maybe even Mata in Salem (latter depends on how he looked in camp - we never saw him so tough to weigh in). The fact that they've had to demote De La Guerra and Brannen makes me wonder about the aggressive assignment strategy they've taken with most guys this year. (Could add Barfield and Requena too, but it'd be hard to argue they hadn't easily earned their promotions in 2017.) EDIT: And Witte and Pimentel, although those were more moving guys in order to clear spots for others than anything else. Does feel like we've had more demotions this year than in previous seasons though.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on May 22, 2018 10:45:45 GMT -5
In light of this, still wonder if more conservative placement to Greenville might have made more sense to begin the year. This. Not quite sure what the rush was to put Houck, Thompson, and maybe even Mata in Salem (latter depends on how he looked in camp - we never saw him so tough to weigh in). The fact that they've had to demote De La Guerra and Brannen makes me wonder about the aggressive assignment strategy they've taken with most guys this year. (Could add Barfield and Requena too, but it'd be hard to argue they hadn't easily earned their promotions in 2017.) EDIT: And Witte and Pimentel, although those were more moving guys in order to clear spots for others than anything else. Does feel like we've had more demotions this year than in previous seasons though. I don't know, they let Matt Barnes mow guys down in Greenville for a while and it didn't turn him into a starter (not that I think Houck would necessarily be performing that way a level down right now). I don't know that Houck is further from the majors right now because he's struggling at Salem versus doing kinda OK at Greenville, maybe he'd be learning less if he were facing more guys he could just blow poorly located fastballs by. The point where I would be concerned would be if he was getting chased in the first or second inning of his stars frequently, but he's actually gone at least four innings in every game but one. As long as he's holding his own to the extent that he's still getting his reps in, I'm willing to believe or at least acknowledge the possibility that struggling against more advanced competition is good for his development.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 22, 2018 10:56:11 GMT -5
This. Not quite sure what the rush was to put Houck, Thompson, and maybe even Mata in Salem (latter depends on how he looked in camp - we never saw him so tough to weigh in). The fact that they've had to demote De La Guerra and Brannen makes me wonder about the aggressive assignment strategy they've taken with most guys this year. (Could add Barfield and Requena too, but it'd be hard to argue they hadn't easily earned their promotions in 2017.) EDIT: And Witte and Pimentel, although those were more moving guys in order to clear spots for others than anything else. Does feel like we've had more demotions this year than in previous seasons though. I don't know, they let Matt Barnes mow guys down in Greenville for a while and it didn't turn him into a starter (not that I think Houck would necessarily be performing that way a level down right now). I don't know that Houck is further from the majors right now because he's struggling at Salem versus doing kinda OK at Greenville, maybe he'd be learning less if he were facing more guys he could just blow poorly located fastballs by. The point where I would be concerned would be if he was getting chased in the first or second inning of his stars frequently, but he's actually gone at least four innings in every game but one. As long as he's holding his own to the extent that he's still getting his reps in, I'm willing to believe or at least acknowledge the possibility that struggling against more advanced competition is good for his development. They weren't attempting to change Barnes' entire arsenal. If it weren't for the significant changes in repertoire and mechnanics that Houck was trying to implement, I'd be fully on board with Salem as where he needed to start, absolutely. And I'll also acknowledge that his development probably isn't being hurt at all. At the same time, getting a month in Greenville to lock things in wouldn't have slowed him down either.
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danr
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Post by danr on May 22, 2018 13:12:10 GMT -5
Are there any pitchers that throw both an elite slider and curve? I thought the problem was that they turn into similar pitches, thus the slurve. Beeks does. Saw them both last night. The curve is nearly a 12 to 6. The slider sweeps down about 30 degrees or so. He got a lot of swings and misses on the slider and taken strikes on the curve.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 22, 2018 21:12:41 GMT -5
Are there any pitchers that throw both an elite slider and curve? I thought the problem was that they turn into similar pitches, thus the slurve. Beeks does. Saw them both last night. The curve is nearly a 12 to 6. The slider sweeps down about 30 degrees or so. He got a lot of swings and misses on the slider and taken strikes on the curve. I don't think that's close to what he meant by "elite." If Beeks had two "elite" pitches, he'd be the Red Sox #2 starter right now.
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