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Tony LaRussa to join Red Sox front office
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Post by jmei on Nov 2, 2017 16:00:25 GMT -5
So what if La Russa's role is to be a sounding board for Cora? You can't really hire La Russa as a bench coach, but what if they though, hm, we have a rookie manager, why not bring in the guy with the third-most wins by a manager ever to be a resource whenever Cora wants him? Easier to swallow, no? Maybe, but La Russa's not going to be in the clubhouse much (if at all), so how useful can he really be? One area where La Russa should add value is through his network. He undoubtedly knows a lot of folks in the game, and that can be helpful in terms of figuring out who might be available in a trade, etc.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 2, 2017 21:53:40 GMT -5
This may not necessarily have anything to do with LaRussa's presence as far as reinforcing this, but....here's a snippet from Peter Gammons' latest column which is about Alex Cora but mentioned this nugget for some of us who are already pretty concerned about this topic:
"Assistant General Manager Eddie Romero will be a key figure in the transition team, a team that will also put a greater emphasis on analytics of all kinds. One major figure in the Houston front office said during the World Series that he felt the Yankees and Dodgers had surpassed the Astros in analytics practices and research, and that the team that had slid back the farthest was Boston. In his year with the Astros and working with Hinch, Cora has great respect for analytics and how they are translated to players."
I find that paragraph pretty concerning. I do believe in the need to use scouting and that not everything is a stat sheet, but.....the Red Sox as an organization have probably let themselves be passed by by a lot of other organizations including big $ ones like LA and NYY.
The Red Sox need to get back to being ahead of the curve. Dombrowski is definitely a "see it with my own eyes" kind of guy and it's fine that he wants to use his eyes - certainly nothing wrong with that, but the backslide in analytics is a self-inflicted foolish wound that should not be happening.
Hopefully Romero and Cora can help bring back the usage of analytics in a way that can be properly distilled to the players.
Obviously you think of LaRussa and you think of yet another voice in the organization that isn't going to be forward thinking, but rather go back up on their experiences for what worked in the past in what's an evolving game. That's a concern if a LaRussa isn't balanced out more by the analytics approach.
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Post by telson13 on Nov 2, 2017 22:29:10 GMT -5
So what if La Russa's role is to be a sounding board for Cora? You can't really hire La Russa as a bench coach, but what if they though, hm, we have a rookie manager, why not bring in the guy with the third-most wins by a manager ever to be a resource whenever Cora wants him? Easier to swallow, no? As a "managing mentor" and nothing else, I think it has some merit. The minute it goes beyond that, it could be a problem.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 2, 2017 23:19:49 GMT -5
This may not necessarily have anything to do with LaRussa's presence as far as reinforcing this, but....here's a snippet from Peter Gammons' latest column which is about Alex Cora but mentioned this nugget for some of us who are already pretty concerned about this topic: "Assistant General Manager Eddie Romero will be a key figure in the transition team, a team that will also put a greater emphasis on analytics of all kinds. One major figure in the Houston front office said during the World Series that he felt the Yankees and Dodgers had surpassed the Astros in analytics practices and research, and that the team that had slid back the farthest was Boston. In his year with the Astros and working with Hinch, Cora has great respect for analytics and how they are translated to players." I find that paragraph pretty concerning. I do believe in the need to use scouting and that not everything is a stat sheet, but.....the Red Sox as an organization have probably let themselves be passed by by a lot of other organizations including big $ ones like LA and NYY. The Red Sox need to get back to being ahead of the curve. Dombrowski is definitely a "see it with my own eyes" kind of guy and it's fine that he wants to use his eyes - certainly nothing wrong with that, but the backslide in analytics is a self-inflicted foolish wound that should not be happening. Hopefully Romero and Cora can help bring back the usage of analytics in a way that can be properly distilled to the players. Obviously you think of LaRussa and you think of yet another voice in the organization that isn't going to be forward thinking, but rather go back up on their experiences for what worked in the past in what's an evolving game. That's a concern if a LaRussa isn't balanced out more by the analytics approach. A history of the Red Sox commitment to, and quality of analytics, compared to other teams, as I see it: 1) Consistently high under Theo through the winter of 2007 / 2008. 2) Decline after Lucchino ordered the FO to layoff all but one of their consultants that winter. 3) Decline steepens after 2011 when Theo leaves. 4a) Decline ends after LL leaves at the end of 2015. 4b) Upturn under DDo, starting actively with the promotion of Brian Bannister mid-2016. Evident in their much better bullpen usage in 2017, which was a significant factor in their 14.6 win improvement in karma (difference between actual wins and wins expected based on team stats). The Sox went from 3rd worst in MLB to second best. (The Yankees, BTW, had a 17.0 win decline in karma, going from 4th best to worst.) DDo is not old school in the negative sense. He's a smart guy who wants to win and be the best at his job, and as I understand it, he came to Boston in part to learn how to add state-of-the-art analytics to his toolkit. DDo hiring Cora can be thought as akin to Theo hiring Tito: bringing in a guy more attuned with the current team philosophy. It's 100% true that they fell far behind the leaders analytically, but I see no cause for concern now.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 2, 2017 23:33:15 GMT -5
This may not necessarily have anything to do with LaRussa's presence as far as reinforcing this, but....here's a snippet from Peter Gammons' latest column which is about Alex Cora but mentioned this nugget for some of us who are already pretty concerned about this topic: "Assistant General Manager Eddie Romero will be a key figure in the transition team, a team that will also put a greater emphasis on analytics of all kinds. One major figure in the Houston front office said during the World Series that he felt the Yankees and Dodgers had surpassed the Astros in analytics practices and research, and that the team that had slid back the farthest was Boston. In his year with the Astros and working with Hinch, Cora has great respect for analytics and how they are translated to players." I find that paragraph pretty concerning. I do believe in the need to use scouting and that not everything is a stat sheet, but.....the Red Sox as an organization have probably let themselves be passed by by a lot of other organizations including big $ ones like LA and NYY. The Red Sox need to get back to being ahead of the curve. Dombrowski is definitely a "see it with my own eyes" kind of guy and it's fine that he wants to use his eyes - certainly nothing wrong with that, but the backslide in analytics is a self-inflicted foolish wound that should not be happening. Hopefully Romero and Cora can help bring back the usage of analytics in a way that can be properly distilled to the players. Obviously you think of LaRussa and you think of yet another voice in the organization that isn't going to be forward thinking, but rather go back up on their experiences for what worked in the past in what's an evolving game. That's a concern if a LaRussa isn't balanced out more by the analytics approach. A history of the Red Sox commitment to, and quality of analytics, compared to other teams, as I see it: 1) Consistently high under Theo through the winter of 2007 / 2008. 2) Decline after Lucchino ordered the FO to layoff all but one of their consultants that winter. 3) Decline steepens after 2011 when Theo leaves. 4a) Decline ends after LL leaves at the end of 2015. 4b) Upturn under DDo, starting actively with the promotion of Brian Bannister mid-2016. Evident in their much better bullpen usage in 2017, which was a significant factor in their 14.6 win improvement in karma (difference between actual wins and wins expected based on team stats). The Sox went from 3rd worst in MLB to second best. (The Yankees, BTW, had a 17.0 win decline in karma, going from 4th best to worst.) DDo is not old school in the negative sense. He's a smart guy who wants to win and be the best at his job, and as I understand it, he came to Boston in part to learn how to add state-of-the-art analytics to his toolkit. DDo hiring Cora can be thought as akin to Theo hiring Tito: bringing in a guy more attuned with the current team philosophy. It's 100% true that they fell far behind the leaders analytically, but I see no cause for concern now. It's good to hear that the Sox are turning the corner, and that DDo is part of that. It is disconcerting to hear just how far back the Sox have fallen. Lucchino did a lot of damage. I truly believe if not for him, Theo and Tito might still be here. Henry deserves a lot of blame. He had no problem trusting DDo and giving him the power and autonomy he needs, but he made Theo answer to Lucchino who is a business guy, not a baseball ops guy. It's not like Henry makes DDo report to Sam Kennedy. I think that's the thing that Henry did that bothers me - choosing Lucchino over Theo. At this point I just hope the Sox can catch up and be among the best and brightest again. DDo is a smart guy, but it sounds like he's trying to play catch-up, basically playing from behind rather than being ahead of the curve.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 3, 2017 11:10:02 GMT -5
What would he contribute? Honest question. In terms of player evaluation, he's not going to be able to see these guys up close like he did as a manager and I'm skeptical that he's going to put in the time to properly scout guys in-person or on video. Even as a manager, he was often criticized for over-relying on gritty veterans and small sample size matchup stats (sound familiar?). He's certainly fallen well behind the curve in terms of understanding player value. If he's just going to contribute off-the-cuff opinions, not sure that's really valuable. For what it's worth, I wouldn't want Phil Jackson advising my basketball front office, either. That's kind of my point though, people are opposing this without fully knowing what his role will be. It's certain he will not be spearheading any major decision, which is good because he sucked at it, but other than that who knows? Maybe he'll be an advisor of sorts? Maybe he will slap Xander around and tell him to macho up? Give some insight on some trade targets? Or on what players not to trade? Perhaps help Cora and take him for a few beers like an action movie mentor? We don't know yet. But he was very good at what he did for a very long time, that's not a bad bet depending on what he'll actually do.
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Post by jmei on Nov 3, 2017 11:18:25 GMT -5
If his role is to provide player evaluation-related advice, which is most likely what it will be, I think the Red Sox would be better off not having received that advice.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 3, 2017 11:38:10 GMT -5
What would he contribute? Honest question. In terms of player evaluation, he's not going to be able to see these guys up close like he did as a manager and I'm skeptical that he's going to put in the time to properly scout guys in-person or on video. Even as a manager, he was often criticized for over-relying on gritty veterans and small sample size matchup stats (sound familiar?). He's certainly fallen well behind the curve in terms of understanding player value. If he's just going to contribute off-the-cuff opinions, not sure that's really valuable. For what it's worth, I wouldn't want Phil Jackson advising my basketball front office, either. That's kind of my point though, people are opposing this without fully knowing what his role will be. It's certain he will not be spearheading any major decision, which is good because he sucked at it, but other than that who knows? Maybe he'll be an advisor of sorts? Maybe he will slap Xander around and tell him to macho up? Give some insight on some trade targets? Or on what players not to trade? Perhaps help Cora and take him for a few beers like an action movie mentor? We don't know yet. But he was very good at what he did for a very long time, that's not a bad bet depending on what he'll actually do. This part. I want him as far away from this as possible.
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Post by Don Caballero on Nov 3, 2017 12:33:25 GMT -5
If his role is to provide player evaluation-related advice, which is most likely what it will be, I think the Red Sox would be better off not having received that advice. Why? This is what I don't get. Is it because LaRussa is an old school kind of guy? You don't get to be as successful as he was if you're not at least somewhat adaptable. This part. I want him as far away from this as possible. I get that but he would give advices on that. If he says something stupid, you can always go "yeah thanks for the input man" and disregard it completely.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Nov 3, 2017 13:00:44 GMT -5
If his role is to provide player evaluation-related advice, which is most likely what it will be, I think the Red Sox would be better off not having received that advice. Speaking as an old guy with recent history of effective consulting and teaching, lots of old guys have much to offer in the proper setting. The proper setting is key. I no longer have the energy or drive to juggle the hundreds of balls in the air that running a complex operation, like managing a ball team, requires. Neither does LaRussa. But the wisdom gained from decades of experience is still valid, as yours will be if you are good at what you do, when you are LaRussa's age, or mine. Hopefully all your accumulated intelligence and knowledge will still be useful then, and passed on. Otherwise history can only keep repeating itself without evolution. That said, Cora's very best advisors and support system must be his coaches with whom he will work closely during this offseason, and every single day from early February through October, 2018. And each of them so far seem excellent, with decades of experience, and all of them, from Bannister to Roenicke, have an analytic bent or they wouldn't be there. And none of them are kids. So we can expect evolution from the 2017 team as both accumulated wisdom and advanced analytics are used as to improve play and players on the field. DDo seems to have used Wren, Baird and Amaro well in their respective roles. I seriously doubt he will allow LaRussa to interfere with Cora and his veteran staff. He, himself, is not a micro-manager, and he is aware of the problems caused by Lucky Larry's interference. And LaRussa made it clear from the outset that he will be a passive, not pro-active, resource. DDo likely stipulated that role up front, and Tony will maintain those boundaries. He is there to answer questions, not ask them. He is also DDo's friend, which is important as DDo's job can be isolating. On the other hand, DDo is smart enough to to not only pick Tony's brain about baseball, but to ask for help with phone calls and visits to friends throughout MLB and the larger baseball world. Done properly, and it must be done properly, Tony could be an asset on many levels.
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Post by jmei on Nov 3, 2017 13:16:02 GMT -5
If his role is to provide player evaluation-related advice, which is most likely what it will be, I think the Red Sox would be better off not having received that advice. Why? This is what I don't get. Is it because LaRussa is an old school kind of guy? You don't get to be as successful as he was if you're not at least somewhat adaptable. It's because I highly doubt La Russa is going to put in the time scouting or analyzing these guys in any real detail. Even if he does, he's not really known for his strong scouting or analytical chops. Especially towards the end of his managing career, he was regularly criticized for his player evaluation abilities. If he's going off memory and instinct, I don't think that's a helpful voice to have in the room. It's a zero-sum game-- any influence La Russa might have directly takes away from the influence of superior scouts and analysts.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Nov 3, 2017 13:29:52 GMT -5
Why? This is what I don't get. Is it because LaRussa is an old school kind of guy? You don't get to be as successful as he was if you're not at least somewhat adaptable. It's because I highly doubt La Russa is going to put in the time scouting or analyzing these guys in any real detail. Even if he does, he's not really known for his strong scouting or analytical chops. Especially towards the end of his managing career, he was regularly criticized for his player evaluation abilities. If he's going off memory and instinct, I don't think that's a helpful voice to have in the room. It's a zero-sum game-- any influence La Russa might have directly takes away from the influence of superior scouts and analysts. if, as you fear, he actually takes on the role of a slovenly, reactionary curmudgeon, it is logical that the reports of both scouts and analysts will become more brilliant, fact-filled and insightful than ever, to offset his negative influence; or cause DDo to ask sharper questions, which can only help. Who do you think DDo will, ultimately, listen to? My bet is on the properly researched and well defined scouting and analytic reports.
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Post by soxfando on Nov 3, 2017 15:17:41 GMT -5
It's because I highly doubt La Russa is going to put in the time scouting or analyzing these guys in any real detail. Even if he does, he's not really known for his strong scouting or analytical chops. Especially towards the end of his managing career, he was regularly criticized for his player evaluation abilities. If he's going off memory and instinct, I don't think that's a helpful voice to have in the room. It's a zero-sum game-- any influence La Russa might have directly takes away from the influence of superior scouts and analysts. if, as you fear, he actually takes on the role of a slovenly, reactionary curmudgeon, it is logical that the reports of both scouts and analysts will become more brilliant, fact-filled and insightful than ever, to offset his negative influence; or cause DDo to ask sharper questions, which can only help. Who do you think DDo will, ultimately, listen to? My bet is on the properly researched and well defined scouting and analytic reports. Can't really see this happening considering DD whiffed on Sale (not to mention the Shaw and Kimbrel trades). Sale's late season struggles are available to anyone with Baseball-reference dot com and Kopech became the #1 pitching prospect in baseball not long after the trade. DD is that reactionary GM type that leaves teams a mess after their tenure.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 3, 2017 15:49:33 GMT -5
if, as you fear, he actually takes on the role of a slovenly, reactionary curmudgeon, it is logical that the reports of both scouts and analysts will become more brilliant, fact-filled and insightful than ever, to offset his negative influence; or cause DDo to ask sharper questions, which can only help. Who do you think DDo will, ultimately, listen to? My bet is on the properly researched and well defined scouting and analytic reports. Can't really see this happening considering DD whiffed on Sale (not to mention the Shaw and Kimbrel trades). Sale's late season struggles are available to anyone with Baseball-reference dot com and Kopech became the #1 pitching prospect in baseball not long after the trade. DD is that reactionary GM type that leaves teams a mess after their tenure. I'm hardly DDo's biggest fan, and don't want to rehash these past deals adnauseum, but really - he "whiffed" on Sale and Kimbrel? Really? Sale is an ace pitcher. The first half counts too. The overall numbers are those of an ace. Kimbrel was named top reliever in the AL and he pitched like it. That's not whiffing. You can argue he gave up too much value or that the Sox are going to get killed in these deals next decade, but the Sox got plenty of value in 2017. Without those two pitchers the Sox might not have even made the playoffs altogether. Last I saw Margot and Asauje have yet to set the league on fire (and it's too early to know about Allen), and Moncada and Kopech haven't contributed that much to the ChiSox although I suspect they will, even though we don't know for sure if Kopech will continue to harness his control. These deals might bite the Sox in the butt in the 2020s if the Sox haven't had a serious World Series run, but in 2017 the Red Sox did not whiff on these deals. Shaw is a different story, although in all honestly I thought Shaw was pretty mediocre in 2016 and lost his starting job, and it's not like he's a 22 year old kid, so I don't remember there being that big an outrage on his loss. The loss of Dubon was considered more worrisome.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 3, 2017 16:15:43 GMT -5
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Post by jmei on Nov 3, 2017 16:17:54 GMT -5
if, as you fear, he actually takes on the role of a slovenly, reactionary curmudgeon, it is logical that the reports of both scouts and analysts will become more brilliant, fact-filled and insightful than ever, to offset his negative influence; or cause DDo to ask sharper questions, which can only help. Who do you think DDo will, ultimately, listen to? My bet is on the properly researched and well defined scouting and analytic reports. Can't really see this happening considering DD whiffed on Sale (not to mention the Shaw and Kimbrel trades). Sale's late season struggles are available to anyone with Baseball-reference dot com and Kopech became the #1 pitching prospect in baseball not long after the trade. DD is that reactionary GM type that leaves teams a mess after their tenure. Please stop derailing threads with off-topic Dombrowski criticism. Thanks.
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Post by soxfando on Nov 3, 2017 16:47:43 GMT -5
Can't really see this happening considering DD whiffed on Sale (not to mention the Shaw and Kimbrel trades). Sale's late season struggles are available to anyone with Baseball-reference dot com and Kopech became the #1 pitching prospect in baseball not long after the trade. DD is that reactionary GM type that leaves teams a mess after their tenure. Please stop derailing threads with off-topic Dombrowski criticism. Thanks. Apologies, should have just said I don't think LaRussa's presence will have a noticeable effect on DD's M.O.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 3, 2017 23:22:43 GMT -5
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Post by Addam603 on Nov 3, 2017 23:31:21 GMT -5
Interesting piece of the article said that La Russa is going to spend his time when the Sox are away from home with the minor league managers and teams. That could be a huge asset to the young guys. Even just knowing that a hall of fame manager is going to be available for these young guys is huge. Major confidence booster. It’ll be interesting what the coaches in the system have to say about his effects.
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Post by jmei on Nov 4, 2017 9:08:30 GMT -5
If La Russa's role is primarily to be a coaching consultant, yeah that's a pretty good idea and I withdraw my argument.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 4, 2017 11:03:46 GMT -5
I feel like any time you have to do this much work to explain why hiring a guy was good, he probably wasn't that good of a hire. Nobody was worried about having to filter out 75% of Brian Bannister's contributions.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 5, 2017 10:39:07 GMT -5
I feel like any time you have to do this much work to explain why hiring a guy was good, he probably wasn't that good of a hire. Nobody was worried about having to filter out 75% of Brian Bannister's contributions. Read Alex Speier's piece. He will have 0% input into decisions. He's in the organization to answer Alex Cora's questions about managing a big league team, because Cora loves to ask questions and La Russa did a great job as Lovullo's sounding board in his rookie season as a manager, in large part because he understands completely the need to allow the manager their autonomy. When the team is on the road, he'll work with minor league managers and coaches in a similar way. That's the content but you really need to hear it from La Russa's mouth.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 5, 2017 11:12:14 GMT -5
I read the Speier piece. I mean... I guess it's super cool that Dombrowski is giving one of his old buddies a job where he won't really have to do anything? Again, if you have to limit a guy's influence that much, I question why he's even being hired.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 5, 2017 12:06:12 GMT -5
I read the Speier piece. I mean... I guess it's super cool that Dombrowski is giving one of his old buddies a job where he won't really have to do anything? Again, if you have to limit a guy's influence that much, I question why he's even being hired. If you read the reason why he was hired it makes sense, and there's not much reason to question it. He's going to help out in the area he's strongest with - managing, a kind of reference/soundboard for Cora. Whether you like LaRussa or not he is in the HOF due to his ability to manage. As long as he's not in a decision making capacity I'm alright with the hire. But just because he's not in a decision making capacity does it mean that his hiring was completely worthless. If Cora gets anything from him, anything that helps him, it's worth it. It's a tiny edge, but any edge you can get is better than doing absolutely nothing.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 5, 2017 12:08:52 GMT -5
I read the Speier piece. I mean... I guess it's super cool that Dombrowski is giving one of his old buddies a job where he won't really have to do anything? Again, if you have to limit a guy's influence that much, I question why he's even being hired. If you think his job is one in which he won't really have to do anything, you didn't read the piece. He's also going to be a resource for the minor league coaching staffs, which I think is great. Many - but not all - minor league coaches are also being developed, but it's never been clear to me who is around to help them with that. It's not like Ben Crockett or Brian Abraham can tell them much about what they need to work on to become MLB coaches, right? They are not "limiting his influence." They hired him to do a specific job. If you get hired to be the fry chef, they are not "limiting your influence" over doing the dishes. Seriously, now that we know he's not going to have input into personnel decisions, I don't get the reason one would be down on this move (unless someone was still fired up about the 2007 DUI or something). We keep talking about how the team should use its monetary resources to improve the on-field product rather than being cheap... doing things JUST LIKE THIS is one way to do that. Again, he's not taking the spot from someone else, and it's "just money." If you're angry about this move, it's because you want to be angry.
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