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Spring Training Position Battles
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Post by jiant2520 on Feb 13, 2018 20:38:35 GMT -5
What are your thoughts on which positions on the roster are up for grabs or at least will need spring training competition to decide?
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giltg
Veteran
When the eagle is silent , the parrots begin to jabber.
Posts: 274
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Post by giltg on Feb 13, 2018 21:52:39 GMT -5
I think the fifth starter will be a battle.This may not be a heated battle but it depends on Steven Wright's health.They have Velazquez Wright Johnson which they say they're going to use him as a reliever and there's ERod who was injured which will play into the battle in May when he returns. IMO I think ERod is a good choice for the bullpen he'll take pressure off of the starters pitching deep into games more so than Johnson.Then Sox haven't signed that veteran arm like Kyle Hendrick last year. With free agent market going the way it is there might be veteran pitchers forced to take a minor league contract.With injuries and a slow free agent market the fifth starter job will be interesting.
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Post by jiant2520 on Feb 13, 2018 22:10:42 GMT -5
I agree, I think there could be a battle for that 5th spot, especially if ERod misses a month... Wright has the inside track, but Velasquez pitched well at the end of last year.
I think 2B while Pedey is out. Hernandez, Swihart, Marrero, Lin, Holt and Queiroz. I am unsure Swihart can play 2B, but if he can that would be really cool. My thing is, once Pedey is back, the backup needs to be able to cover SS, Swihart, IMO, cannot do that. I think Leon is the backup Catcher. Brentz is the backup OF, unless Swihart can get involved there. If JD signs, Hanley is the backup 1B. That leaves two spots, 2B and backup IF. I think Marrero, out of options could provide good defense at every IF position.... although ok vs lefties, he is the worst hitter of the lot. I am very interested in how we build this...
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 13, 2018 22:36:56 GMT -5
5th SP: Wright's health isn't supposed to be an issue. The bigger question is the MLB investigation into his domestic violence incident. If he's not suspended, seems like he's the obvious first choice, although if Johnson's stuff returns to 2015 levels, he could compete I guess. I can't imagine they go with Velazquez unless both of the other two are pitching horribly. And once Rodriguez is healthy, there's no chance he's not starting. When healthy he's a mid-rotation starter. But that's it - he must be healthy and not thinking about his knee.
2B: Can't imagine they'd even consider adding Quiroz to the roster while they have all those other options on the 40-man, but that should be an interesting ST battle.
Bench, post-Pedroia return: Depends in large part upon whether they sign Martinez. If they don't, a bench of Leon-Swihart-Marrero-Brentz could work. If they sign Martinez, replace Brentz with the one of Moreland/Hanley who isn't starting. If they sign Martinez, there's no way Brentz and Swihart are both on the roster. But the biggest thing - I'm beginning to think Holt needs a huge spring to keep his roster spot, given his cost and the panoply of other options.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 13, 2018 22:44:22 GMT -5
Interesting that you put Swihart ahead of Holt, Chris. I'm not sure where the Sox go here. Holt's more expensive, but still easy to trade.
I'm not sure how much trade value Holt would have.
Swihart would have more value, or he should considering the age, but I'd gamble on the utility of Swihart moving forward if he can have any semblance of proving he can handle a lot of spots in the field somewhat adequately. Swihart gives you arguably the best pinch running option off then bench also.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Feb 13, 2018 22:56:01 GMT -5
It's mostly the bench that's a battle.
Will be interesting to see if the Sox win on the Tony Watson sweepstakes. That'll make them a lot deeper and stronger in the bullpen. It might be the reason the Sox aren't going to 24 or 25 million to Martinez, they might be saving some of that money towards a Watson signing.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 14, 2018 7:34:52 GMT -5
The Red Sox need to hold firm on their Martinez offer and hope that falls their way.
However, regardless of that they should be adding Watson to the pen to get a good lefty in there they can rely on. The offense is likely going to be a weaker spot so they need to be dominant elsewhere.
The sneaky move they should make is trading Holt and signing Eduardo Nunez. This gives them a starting caliber utility guy who will start for the first month or two while Pedey recovers. He’s versatile enough that even when he is on the bench he can get close to Full time at bats. This will allow the team to not have a massive drop off when a backup gives a starter a rest which is important when your offense is already weaker.
Payroll issues? I don’t really care to be honest. They are going over the tax as is and the only real amount over than what’s been talked about is Nunez salary over Holts 2.5m salary. Nunez may have to take a one year contract with a player option at this point anyways so that figure could be lower than anticipated.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 14, 2018 8:17:16 GMT -5
You have to go back to 2015 to find when Watson had a better season than Abad had last year. How much can he improve the bullpen?
There are going to be a lot of position battles, mostly for backup roles. If JDM is signed, I'm counting 15 position players plus Pedroia on the DL. There's no way that they'll go with more than 13 so at least two of these guys are going to be lost to waivers or traded. I have a hard time seeing Holt traded or waived considering how little CF/RF depth they would have with this roster. Yeah, Benintendi could slide over, but if any of the outfielders were lost for a month, what would they have other than Castillo? It's hard to say that they have enough time to get comfortable with Swihart in CF or RF. Marrero looks like a sure goner which isn't a huge loss with Lin in AAA. I also can't see Brentz making the team if JDM is here. This is one strange year for roster construction with 3 spots possibly dedicated for 1B/DH and 3 catchers. Injuries could make this discussion irrelevant of course.
I think possibly the biggest battle might be Swihart vs. Leon for backup catcher if that will be considered. They could possibly put Hernandez in AAA to keep an additional player for depth, but he's likely the best 2B replacement for Pedroia.
C Vazquez, Leon
1B Moreland, Hanley
2B Hernandez
SS Bogaerts
3B Devers
LF Benintendi
CF Bradley Jr.
RF Betts
DH JD Martinez
Util Holt, Swihart, Brentz, Marrero
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 14, 2018 8:58:28 GMT -5
For the pitchers, they already have:
SP Sale, Price, Pomeranz, Porcello, Wright
BP Kimbrel, Smith, Thornburg, Barnes, Kelly, Hembree, Workman, Johnson
with Maddox, Scott, Elias, Taylor, Jerez, Shepherd, Velazquez, Beeks and Buttery also on the 40 man roster. That's one too many relief pitchers, but Workman still has an option somehow. (unless they go with 13 pitchers, which would necessitate one fewer position player) I think they'll pretty much be forced to go with 13 position players and 12 pitchers this year for the most part.
I honestly don't see how Johnson can stick unless they commit to actually using a long-man in the bullpen which is hard to imagine these days. Wright's position is also up in the air while he's keeping the seat warm for ERod. Johnson is probably going to have to beat out Wright to have a shot at sticking out of spring training.
And as always, health usually makes these decisions a lot easier. Thornburg is going to be the biggest question mark.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 14, 2018 9:01:06 GMT -5
You have to go back to 2015 to find when Watson had a better season than Abad had last year. How much can he improve the bullpen? There are going to be a lot of position battles, mostly for backup roles. If JDM is signed, I'm counting 15 position players plus Pedroia on the DL. There's no way that they'll go with more than 13 so at least two of these guys are going to be lost to waivers or traded. I have a hard time seeing Holt traded or waived considering how little CF/RF depth they would have with this roster. Yeah, Benintendi could slide over, but if any of the outfielders were lost for a month, what would they have other than Castillo? It's hard to say that they have enough time to get comfortable with Swihart in CF or RF. Marrero looks like a sure goner which isn't a huge loss with Lin in AAA. I also can't see Brentz making the team if JDM is here. This is one strange year for roster construction with 3 spots possibly dedicated for 1B/DH and 3 catchers. Injuries could make this discussion irrelevant of course.I'm a broken record on this but... this roster construction is totally fine if you carry 11 pitchers. And carrying 11 pitchers, especially early in a season, is something teams really should consider doing more often. You need a reliever or two who can go multiple innings (and a manager willing to use his relievers that way), but 13 pitchers is just an insane use of a 25-man roster except in really weird circumstances. Like, Matt Barnes and Joe Kelly both didn't turn into ace one-inning relievers. Instead of using them as slightly-worse one-inning relievers, take advantage of their athleticism and durability and use them for a whole run through the lineup every so often. Then you can keep Marco Hernandez instead of Heath Hembree.
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giltg
Veteran
When the eagle is silent , the parrots begin to jabber.
Posts: 274
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Post by giltg on Feb 14, 2018 11:39:58 GMT -5
5th SP: Wright's health isn't supposed to be an issue. The bigger question is the MLB investigation into his domestic violence incident. If he's not suspended, seems like he's the obvious first choice, although if Johnson's stuff returns to 2015 levels, he could compete I guess. I can't imagine they go with Velazquez unless both of the other two are pitching horribly. And once Rodriguez is healthy, there's no chance he's not starting. When healthy he's a mid-rotation starter. But that's it - he must be healthy and not thinking about his knee. 2B: Can't imagine they'd even consider adding Quiroz to the roster while they have all those other options on the 40-man, but that should be an interesting ST battle. Bench, post-Pedroia return: Depends in large part upon whether they sign Martinez. If they don't, a bench of Leon-Swihart-Marrero-Brentz could work. If they sign Martinez, replace Brentz with the one of Moreland/Hanley who isn't starting. If they sign Martinez, there's no way Brentz and Swihart are both on the roster. But the biggest thing - I'm beginning to think Holt needs a huge spring to keep his roster spot, given his cost and the panoply of other options. Totally forgot about the domestic violence incident but you're right if he's not suspended he'll be the fifth starter . But when Rodriguez gets back do they put Wright in the bullpen there's a roster decision. I'm biased because I'm already a Quiroz fan , I know he hasn't played in the major leagues but I believe that he has more pop than Brock Holt so they may take that into consideration then he plays multiple infield positions and the outfield so that could play into their decision making.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 14, 2018 11:57:43 GMT -5
5th SP: Wright's health isn't supposed to be an issue. The bigger question is the MLB investigation into his domestic violence incident. If he's not suspended, seems like he's the obvious first choice, although if Johnson's stuff returns to 2015 levels, he could compete I guess. I can't imagine they go with Velazquez unless both of the other two are pitching horribly. And once Rodriguez is healthy, there's no chance he's not starting. When healthy he's a mid-rotation starter. But that's it - he must be healthy and not thinking about his knee. 2B: Can't imagine they'd even consider adding Quiroz to the roster while they have all those other options on the 40-man, but that should be an interesting ST battle. Bench, post-Pedroia return: Depends in large part upon whether they sign Martinez. If they don't, a bench of Leon-Swihart-Marrero-Brentz could work. If they sign Martinez, replace Brentz with the one of Moreland/Hanley who isn't starting. If they sign Martinez, there's no way Brentz and Swihart are both on the roster. But the biggest thing - I'm beginning to think Holt needs a huge spring to keep his roster spot, given his cost and the panoply of other options. Totally forgot about the domestic violence incident but you're right if he's not suspended he'll be the fifth starter . But when Rodriguez gets back do they put Wright in the bullpen there's a roster decision. I'm biased because I'm already a Quiroz fan , I know he hasn't played in the major leagues but I believe that he has more pop than Brock Holt so they may take that into consideration then he plays multiple infield positions and the outfield so that could play into their decision making. Rodriguez vs. Wright isn't even a question, again with the caveat that Rodriguez be truly healthy. Again on Quiroz, consider the fact that he is not on the 40-man roster. I don't see the reason to add him to the 40-man when he's redundant with 3 or 4 players already on it. To justify that, he'd need to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than any of those options.
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giltg
Veteran
When the eagle is silent , the parrots begin to jabber.
Posts: 274
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Post by giltg on Feb 14, 2018 14:30:14 GMT -5
Totally forgot about the domestic violence incident but you're right if he's not suspended he'll be the fifth starter . But when Rodriguez gets back do they put Wright in the bullpen there's a roster decision. I'm biased because I'm already a Quiroz fan , I know he hasn't played in the major leagues but I believe that he has more pop than Brock Holt so they may take that into consideration then he plays multiple infield positions and the outfield so that could play into their decision making. Rodriguez vs. Wright isn't even a question, again with the caveat that Rodriguez be truly healthy. Again on Quiroz, consider the fact that he is not on the 40-man roster. I don't see the reason to add him to the 40-man when he's redundant with 3 or 4 players already on it. To justify that, he'd need to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than any of those options. IMO there's no such thing as a redundant player coming into spring training every player has a chance when a job on the major league roster. For example Chris Taylor of the Los Angeles Dodgers came into spring training with two major league home runs never had a slugging percentage above 362 or OPS higher than 622. He did not make the team right out of spring training on April 19th he was called up and had 21 home runs 72 RBIs .288 batting average point .496 slugging percentage and a OPS of .850. His hitting coach was Tim Hyers who is the Red Sox hitting coach this year.What if Sam Travis Jeremy Barfield or Esteban Quiroz hey WTH what if Hyers clicks with players like Bryce Brentz Danny Mars even Steve Selsky and turn into the 2018 version of Chris Taylor. Do you remember what you said about Tzu-Wei Lin when they called him up. Baseball is a funny game you just never know.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 14, 2018 14:45:14 GMT -5
Rodriguez vs. Wright isn't even a question, again with the caveat that Rodriguez be truly healthy. Again on Quiroz, consider the fact that he is not on the 40-man roster. I don't see the reason to add him to the 40-man when he's redundant with 3 or 4 players already on it. To justify that, he'd need to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than any of those options. IMO there's no such thing as a redundant player coming into spring training every player has a chance when a job on the major league roster. For example Chris Taylor of the Los Angeles Dodgers came into spring training with two major league home runs never had a slugging percentage above 362 or OPS higher than 622. He did not make the team right out of spring training on April 19th he was called up and had 21 home runs 72 RBIs .288 batting average point .496 slugging percentage and a OPS of .850. His hitting coach was Tim Hyers who is the Red Sox hitting coach this year.What if Sam Travis Jeremy Barfield or Esteban Quiroz hey WTH what if Hyers clicks with players like Bryce Brentz Danny Mars even Steve Selsky and turn into the 2018 version of Chris Taylor. Do you remember what you said about Tzu-Wei Lin when they called him up. Baseball is a funny game you just never know. I think you prove Chris's point when you mention that Taylor didn't make the team until he was called up on the 19th. He had options so they sent him down to create depth but called him back up when he was needed, despite only having a .769 OPS in AAA. Only then did he get his chance and really run with it. The players with options will be sent down first unless they prove to be a significant upgrade or an injury occurs.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 14, 2018 14:47:30 GMT -5
Rodriguez vs. Wright isn't even a question, again with the caveat that Rodriguez be truly healthy. Again on Quiroz, consider the fact that he is not on the 40-man roster. I don't see the reason to add him to the 40-man when he's redundant with 3 or 4 players already on it. To justify that, he'd need to be SIGNIFICANTLY better than any of those options. IMO there's no such thing as a redundant player coming into spring training every player has a chance when a job on the major league roster. For example Chris Taylor of the Los Angeles Dodgers came into spring training with two major league home runs never had a slugging percentage above 362 or OPS higher than 622. He did not make the team right out of spring training on April 19th he was called up and had 21 home runs 72 RBIs .288 batting average point .496 slugging percentage and a OPS of .850. His hitting coach was Tim Hyers who is the Red Sox hitting coach this year.What if Sam Travis Jeremy Barfield or Esteban Quiroz hey WTH what if Hyers clicks with players like Bryce Brentz Danny Mars even Steve Selsky and turn into the 2018 version of Chris Taylor. Do you remember what you said about Tzu-Wei Lin when they called him up. Baseball is a funny game you just never know. Chris Taylor was on the 40-man roster. Different situation. You're not understanding me. In order to add Quiroz to the active roster they would need to designate someone for assignment. They're not going to do that when the point is just to fill in for Pedroia for 1.5-2 months when they have four other guys on the 40-man roster. And even if someone can go on the 60-day, I'd presume they're going to wait until they absolutely need to add someone. And to be clear, we're all talking about the roster coming out of camp here. I'm not saying Quiroz will not play in the majors at all in 2018. Who the hell knows if he will or won't. I'm saying I don't think there's a reasonable chance he makes the team out of camp (see below). This is another way the Taylor example doesn't fit what you're trying to say - he DIDN'T make the roster out of spring training. No, I do not remember what I said about Lin when they called him up, so please enlighten me. Interesting that you do though. At any rate, at the time they called him up, Sandoval, Hernandez, Holt, and Rutledge were all on the DL - the countermove to make room for him was Holt to the 60-day and Rutledge to the 7-day. The day before they signed Jhonny Peralta to a minor league deal. They were on plan E or F at third base at that point. I thought this went without saying, but sure, if they're in that situation again and Holt, Hernandez, Lin, Marrero, and Swihart are all on the DL or otherwise unavailable to start the season in addition to Pedroia, then yeah, maybe they'll add Quiroz.
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giltg
Veteran
When the eagle is silent , the parrots begin to jabber.
Posts: 274
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Post by giltg on Feb 14, 2018 15:03:28 GMT -5
IMO there's no such thing as a redundant player coming into spring training every player has a chance when a job on the major league roster. For example Chris Taylor of the Los Angeles Dodgers came into spring training with two major league home runs never had a slugging percentage above 362 or OPS higher than 622. He did not make the team right out of spring training on April 19th he was called up and had 21 home runs 72 RBIs .288 batting average point .496 slugging percentage and a OPS of .850. His hitting coach was Tim Hyers who is the Red Sox hitting coach this year.What if Sam Travis Jeremy Barfield or Esteban Quiroz hey WTH what if Hyers clicks with players like Bryce Brentz Danny Mars even Steve Selsky and turn into the 2018 version of Chris Taylor. Do you remember what you said about Tzu-Wei Lin when they called him up. Baseball is a funny game you just never know. Chris Taylor was on the 40-man roster. Different situation. You're not understanding me. In order to add Quiroz to the active roster they would need to designate someone for assignment. They're not going to do that when the point is just to fill in for Pedroia for 1.5-2 months when they have four other guys on the 40-man roster. And even if someone can go on the 60-day, I'd presume they're going to wait until they absolutely need to add someone. And to be clear, we're all talking about the roster coming out of camp here. I'm not saying Quiroz will not play in the majors at all in 2018. Who the hell knows if he will or won't. I'm saying I don't think there's a reasonable chance he makes the team out of camp (see below). This is another way the Taylor example doesn't fit what you're trying to say - he DIDN'T make the roster out of spring training. No, I do not remember what I said about Lin when they called him up, so please enlighten me. Interesting that you do though. At any rate, at the time they called him up, Sandoval, Hernandez, Holt, and Rutledge were all on the DL - the countermove to make room for him was Holt to the 60-day and Rutledge to the 7-day. The day before they signed Jhonny Peralta to a minor league deal. They were on plan E or F at third base at that point. I thought this went without saying, but sure, if they're in that situation again and Holt, Hernandez, Lin, Marrero, and Swihart are all on the DL or otherwise unavailable to start the season in addition to Pedroia, then yeah, maybe they'll add Quiroz. Why is it interesting that I REMEMBER what you said at any rate. I read a story in Sox prospects that's how I REMEMBER.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 14, 2018 15:43:03 GMT -5
I find it interesting that anyone would bother to remember something I said last July about Tzu-Wei Lin? Nothing personal dude.
EDIT: I mean, you've clearly been reading pretty much every post that exists on this forum over the last couple months and I guess I'm impressed that you would recall one thing I said therein.
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Post by jiant2520 on Feb 14, 2018 20:08:55 GMT -5
I am also impressed. I cannot remember what I ate this morning...
As for these spring training battles, I have to agree, if the player is not on the 40 man, they most likely start in the minors... obviously there is a chance, if they absolutely rake, they add them out of camp, but it would need to be that and the rest of the players competing for said position to under perform a bit.
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Post by jiant2520 on Feb 14, 2018 20:16:58 GMT -5
I think Brentz, Holt, Marrero, Hernandez, Swihart, Lin and Quiroz are competing for three spots. We need a 4th OF, 2B and someone who can backup SS and to a lesser degree 3B and CF.
I don't see, or believe, Swihart will beat out Leon at all.
Lin and Quiroz probably start in the minors.
Which leaves Holt and Hernandez as the best options for 2B, maybe Swihart.
I want Brentz in the OF.
This should be a fun battle!
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Feb 14, 2018 22:40:41 GMT -5
The Holt fan club won't be surprised to see him optioned at the end of ST. Then again, he might hit .400 in ST
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 14, 2018 22:47:47 GMT -5
The Holt fan club won't be surprised to see him optioned at the end of ST. Then again, he might hit .400 in ST If Holt is healthy and unable to win a spot on the 25-man roster, I can't imagine they'll pay him $2.23M (that will count toward the CBT, to head off the obvious Rusney Castillo replies) to play for the PawSox.
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Post by jclmontana on Feb 14, 2018 23:05:10 GMT -5
I don’t get that people are seriously promoting the idea that Swihart could ever beat out Leon for the second catcher spot. He has never been a good defensive catcher, and he basically lost the last two years of development time. Time to move on from that fantasy. However, I totally get rooting for him to make the team as a utility player, that would be awesome, if unlikely.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 15, 2018 15:40:20 GMT -5
I think people are underrating or forgetting about Hernandez.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Feb 15, 2018 15:53:56 GMT -5
The Holt fan club won't be surprised to see him optioned at the end of ST. If Holt is healthy and unable to win a spot on the 25-man roster, I can't imagine they'll pay him $2.23M (that will count toward the CBT, to head off the obvious Rusney Castillo replies) to play for the PawSox. Holt: arbitration non-guarantee split contract He gets about 600k guarantee if he gets optioned at end of ST Then goes onto his milb pay scale We don't know his milb pay or if it is guaranteed The remainder of the 2.3M is guaranteed when he is recalled I wager that Marrero or Brentz or someone will be waived or DL by mid May.
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Post by Addam603 on Feb 15, 2018 15:54:34 GMT -5
I think people are underrating or forgetting about Hernandez. I’m a huge fan of Hernandez, but we do need to temper the expectations for him. At least at the beginning. We’re talking about a guy with barely 100 career ABs at the major league level coming off of a major surgery that cost him an entire year. There will be rust and there will be struggles. Someone here cited a report from Hernandez the other day that he’s slowly making his way back but isn’t there yet. I don’t know if it’s realistic to expect him to be a contributor at the beginning of the season. I guess time and spring training will tell.
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