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Post by James Dunne on May 17, 2018 8:07:51 GMT -5
Probably stinks that the team will most likely non tender him due to his comments about the manager though. I don't like what he said either, but I don't agree with getting rid of him for nothing. This guy has talent, even if he can't stay healthy. If they non-tender him, it won't be because of his comments. That's broadly true when it's a clear decision, but if you're on the fence about a guy then "he hurt himself throwing a temper tantrum then acted like a jackass and tried to blame the manager" is probably not a point in his favor. As someone who is already a candidate to be non-tendered it's the kind of thing you don't want to put up with.
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Post by jimed14 on May 17, 2018 8:42:53 GMT -5
We're talking about a guy who just came back from Tommy John, gave up a HR and then hurt his shoulder. It's not surprising that he'd be frustrated and irrational in the heat of the moment. It's not something that can't be recovered from.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 17, 2018 9:58:34 GMT -5
Yeah, as jimed alludes to, I'm sure it's nothing that couldn't be smoothed over with an apology. But point taken.
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nomar
Veteran
Posts: 10,891
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Post by nomar on May 17, 2018 10:34:56 GMT -5
Need to get to the team store ASAP to buy myself a Carson Smith jersey.
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Post by James Dunne on May 17, 2018 10:42:05 GMT -5
Maybe they'll help you out by giving #39 to either Josh Smith or Josh Smith.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 18, 2018 0:08:35 GMT -5
Carson is easily going to be worth whatever small raise he gets in arbitration if he needs surgery this year. He'll probably get over a million dollars if tendered a contract. That is still very much worth the risk on even a injury prone pitcher like Smith.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2018 8:02:26 GMT -5
Maybe they'll help you out by giving #39 to either Josh Smith or Josh Smith. Who is the other Josh Smith that might join the PawSox?
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Post by m1keyboots on May 19, 2018 13:05:51 GMT -5
If they non-tender him, it won't be because of his comments. That's broadly true when it's a clear decision, but if you're on the fence about a guy then "he hurt himself throwing a temper tantrum then acted like a jackass and tried to blame the manager" is probably not a point in his favor. As someone who is already a candidate to be non-tendered it's the kind of thing you don't want to put up with. I agree but I think this is a little harsh. These dudes aren't robots. He gave up a bomb and slammed his glove in a frustrated moment. He didn't destroy water coolers or yell at Cora. He blew an inning in a competitive season,then he slammed his glove. I'm sure you've played baseball and seen "real" temper tantrums or at least know the feeling. It's 100% guaranteed he regretted the waaaay out of control moment insinuating blame over when he slammed his glove on the bench. If an apology and convo doesn't clear that up then ok the former elite setup man/closer from Seattle can go7. It's also quite obvious he was tired. That was easily the most pitches he'd thrown in a 4 game stretch since the surgery. Not AC fault when it's 2 years coming off the procedure, either. Does that mean he acted like a jackass and shouldn't be brought back? I disagree. I'll take a fired up Carson even when he comes back, over 25 robots.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 19, 2018 23:23:37 GMT -5
That's broadly true when it's a clear decision, but if you're on the fence about a guy then "he hurt himself throwing a temper tantrum then acted like a jackass and tried to blame the manager" is probably not a point in his favor. As someone who is already a candidate to be non-tendered it's the kind of thing you don't want to put up with. I agree but I think this is a little harsh. These dudes aren't robots. He gave up a bomb and slammed his glove in a frustrated moment. He didn't destroy water coolers or yell at Cora. He blew an inning in a competitive season,then he slammed his glove. I'm sure you've played baseball and seen "real" temper tantrums or at least know the feeling. It's 100% guaranteed he regretted the waaaay out of control moment insinuating blame over when he slammed his glove on the bench. If an apology and convo doesn't clear that up then ok the former elite setup man/closer from Seattle can go7. It's also quite obvious he was tired. That was easily the most pitches he'd thrown in a 4 game stretch since the surgery. Not AC fault when it's 2 years coming off the procedure, either. Does that mean he acted like a jackass and shouldn't be brought back? I disagree. I'll take a fired up Carson even when he comes back, over 25 robots. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you're missing the part where Smith threw his manager under the bus saying that he got overworked by Cora, which is silly considering that Cora used him in short stint low leverage situations and that Cora regularly conferred with him to make sure he was ok to pitch. If Smith said he couldn't go Cora would stay away from him. So if he really felt that he was overworked then who's fault was it really? It was the fault of the idiot who threw a temper tantrum and torpedoed his chance of reclaiming his career and pitching himself into trusted high leverage situations on a team that is post-season bound. I've lost total respect for Carson Smith. Don't think they should release him, but they shouldn't pay big bucks to rehab him. If it isn't big bucks, sure rehab and hope that he can stay healthy for a minute or two. But as far as ever relying or trusting the guy, forget it. He lost that trust. Fortunately the Sox only lost Wade Miley to secure Carson Smith's services. In actuality Carson Smith is all that's left from that Nick Punto deal. I guess when it was all said and done it wasn't who the Sox got for stapling Beckett, Crawford, and Punto to AGon, but it was totally the financial flexibility that the Sox got from the deal - they ultimately didn't get any useful players in the deal.
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Post by shpr1029 on May 20, 2018 1:15:00 GMT -5
He made a mistake. I am sure he will look back on it and regret what he did. Total bummer because, he looked like he was getting better. Hopefully he has nothing major wrong;I am still rooting for him.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 20, 2018 8:15:20 GMT -5
I agree but I think this is a little harsh. These dudes aren't robots. He gave up a bomb and slammed his glove in a frustrated moment. He didn't destroy water coolers or yell at Cora. He blew an inning in a competitive season,then he slammed his glove. I'm sure you've played baseball and seen "real" temper tantrums or at least know the feeling. It's 100% guaranteed he regretted the waaaay out of control moment insinuating blame over when he slammed his glove on the bench. If an apology and convo doesn't clear that up then ok the former elite setup man/closer from Seattle can go7. It's also quite obvious he was tired. That was easily the most pitches he'd thrown in a 4 game stretch since the surgery. Not AC fault when it's 2 years coming off the procedure, either. Does that mean he acted like a jackass and shouldn't be brought back? I disagree. I'll take a fired up Carson even when he comes back, over 25 robots. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you're missing the part where Smith threw his manager under the bus saying that he got overworked by Cora, which is silly considering that Cora used him in short stint low leverage situations and that Cora regularly conferred with him to make sure he was ok to pitch. If Smith said he couldn't go Cora would stay away from him. So if he really felt that he was overworked then who's fault was it really? It was the fault of the idiot who threw a temper tantrum and torpedoed his chance of reclaiming his career and pitching himself into trusted high leverage situations on a team that is post-season bound. I've lost total respect for Carson Smith. Don't think they should release him, but they shouldn't pay big bucks to rehab him. If it isn't big bucks, sure rehab and hope that he can stay healthy for a minute or two. But as far as ever relying or trusting the guy, forget it. He lost that trust. Fortunately the Sox only lost Wade Miley to secure Carson Smith's services. In actuality Carson Smith is all that's left from that Nick Punto deal. I guess when it was all said and done it wasn't who the Sox got for stapling Beckett, Crawford, and Punto to AGon, but it was totally the financial flexibility that the Sox got from the deal - they ultimately didn't get any useful players in the deal. You must not have seen the interview. That was my take listening to talking heads until I saw it. (It's on NESN someplace) To me, people are over reacting, You need to do a lot of extrapolating to say he threw Cora under the bus. He's upset with a freak event, not Cora. To the point he was almost crying.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 20, 2018 8:42:48 GMT -5
Yup another example of taking a guys words and twisting them into a controversy to create a story. Thanks for the heads up on the interview, hearing it from the horses mouth clears up him throwing AC under the bus. In regards to his usage you have to take into consideration all the warm up pitches it takes before getting in the game, 6 games in 9 days is a bit much. So his shoulder was a little fatigued and he did something stupid in the moment. At least he isn't passionless, this whole thing is nothing to get excited about beyond the injury.
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Post by jimed14 on May 20, 2018 9:00:38 GMT -5
Imagine if Papi hurt himself or someone else when he was destroying the dugout phone. That was way worse than throwing a glove.
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Post by patford on May 20, 2018 10:15:02 GMT -5
Logic would tell us if he hurt his shoulder throwing his glove he was going to hurt his shoulder throwing a pitch. If he is to be blamed for anything it would be not communicating better about his condition to pitch. Clearly he was not ready yet for the workload he was getting.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on May 20, 2018 10:55:43 GMT -5
When I heard what he originally said, and the subsequent fallout, I was surprised. I didn't infer any blame towards Cora. I don't know how folks came to that conclusion. It was more a guy who was thinking through why it occurred. He took responsibility for his actions. I feel bad for him.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on May 20, 2018 17:45:52 GMT -5
I guess the news of no surgery yet is a good sign when it comes to Carson Smith?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 20, 2018 19:55:02 GMT -5
I guess the news of no surgery yet is a good sign when it comes to Carson Smith? The night of the game they said they would need to wait several days for the swelling to go down to get an MRI and make an accurate assessment. Has that been done ?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 20, 2018 20:17:45 GMT -5
Yup another example of taking a guys words and twisting them into a controversy to create a story. Thanks for the heads up on the interview, hearing it from the horses mouth clears up him throwing AC under the bus. In regards to his usage you have to take into consideration all the warm up pitches it takes before getting in the game, 6 games in 9 days is a bit much. So his shoulder was a little fatigued and he did something stupid in the moment. At least he isn't passionless, this whole thing is nothing to get excited about beyond the injury. Just telling the facts or the story as it actually happened doesn't sell ink or get listeners. America no longer has reporters, only journalists who's primary function is $$$. A more accurate word for journalists would be sensationalists.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 20, 2018 20:26:05 GMT -5
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you're missing the part where Smith threw his manager under the bus saying that he got overworked by Cora, which is silly considering that Cora used him in short stint low leverage situations and that Cora regularly conferred with him to make sure he was ok to pitch. If Smith said he couldn't go Cora would stay away from him. So if he really felt that he was overworked then who's fault was it really? It was the fault of the idiot who threw a temper tantrum and torpedoed his chance of reclaiming his career and pitching himself into trusted high leverage situations on a team that is post-season bound. I've lost total respect for Carson Smith. Don't think they should release him, but they shouldn't pay big bucks to rehab him. If it isn't big bucks, sure rehab and hope that he can stay healthy for a minute or two. But as far as ever relying or trusting the guy, forget it. He lost that trust. Fortunately the Sox only lost Wade Miley to secure Carson Smith's services. In actuality Carson Smith is all that's left from that Nick Punto deal. I guess when it was all said and done it wasn't who the Sox got for stapling Beckett, Crawford, and Punto to AGon, but it was totally the financial flexibility that the Sox got from the deal - they ultimately didn't get any useful players in the deal. You must not have seen the interview. That was my take listening to talking heads until I saw it. (It's on NESN someplace) To me, people are over reacting, You need to do a lot of extrapolating to say he threw Cora under the bus. He's upset with a freak event, not Cora. To the point he was almost crying. I didn't see the interview. Only heard about it from the talking heads on WEEI, so I'll take your word for it. Either way, I don't know that the Sox are ever going to get any meaningful contributions out of Smith. I had hope that they would. Now not so much.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on May 20, 2018 20:29:11 GMT -5
You must not have seen the interview. That was my take listening to talking heads until I saw it. (It's on NESN someplace) To me, people are over reacting, You need to do a lot of extrapolating to say he threw Cora under the bus. He's upset with a freak event, not Cora. To the point he was almost crying. I didn't see the interview. Only heard about it from the talking heads on WEEI, so I'll take your word for it. Either way, I don't know that the Sox are ever going to get any meaningful contributions out of Smith. I had hope that they would. Now not so much. And that is the extent of the story. I'm disappointed as well, it seemed to be coming together well for him. A shame that a freak accident might derail that.
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Post by voiceofreason on May 21, 2018 7:11:37 GMT -5
I can't recall all the names and don't have the time to go back and research it but going back at least 12 maybe 15 years the Sox have had terrible luck trading for relief pitchers. It seems like a long list of guys who performed well before and sometimes after playing here but while in Boston were terrible.
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Post by James Dunne on May 21, 2018 7:53:48 GMT -5
Pretty much every team has had terrible luck trading for relief pitchers because that's the nature of relievers. Any relief pitcher currently pitching well is probably peaking.
Kimbrel aside (and without getting too deeply down that rabbit hole of whether they gave up too much for him again), the Red Sox string this decade has seemed particularly poor though, I agree.
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Post by m1keyboots on May 21, 2018 12:39:21 GMT -5
I agree but I think this is a little harsh. These dudes aren't robots. He gave up a bomb and slammed his glove in a frustrated moment. He didn't destroy water coolers or yell at Cora. He blew an inning in a competitive season,then he slammed his glove. I'm sure you've played baseball and seen "real" temper tantrums or at least know the feeling. It's 100% guaranteed he regretted the waaaay out of control moment insinuating blame over when he slammed his glove on the bench. If an apology and convo doesn't clear that up then ok the former elite setup man/closer from Seattle can go7. It's also quite obvious he was tired. That was easily the most pitches he'd thrown in a 4 game stretch since the surgery. Not AC fault when it's 2 years coming off the procedure, either. Does that mean he acted like a jackass and shouldn't be brought back? I disagree. I'll take a fired up Carson even when he comes back, over 25 robots. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you're missing the part where Smith threw his manager under the bus saying that he got overworked by Cora, which is silly considering that Cora used him in short stint low leverage situations and that Cora regularly conferred with him to make sure he was ok to pitch. If Smith said he couldn't go Cora would stay away from him. So if he really felt that he was overworked then who's fault was it really? It was the fault of the idiot who threw a temper tantrum and torpedoed his chance of reclaiming his career and pitching himself into trusted high leverage situations on a team that is post-season bound. I've lost total respect for Carson Smith. Don't think they should release him, but they shouldn't pay big bucks to rehab him. If it isn't big bucks, sure rehab and hope that he can stay healthy for a minute or two. But as far as ever relying or trusting the guy, forget it. He lost that trust. Fortunately the Sox only lost Wade Miley to secure Carson Smith's services. In actuality Carson Smith is all that's left from that Nick Punto deal. I guess when it was all said and done it wasn't who the Sox got for stapling Beckett, Crawford, and Punto to AGon, but it was totally the financial flexibility that the Sox got from the deal - they ultimately didn't get any useful players in the deal. I mentioned he had insinuated blame (guess you didn't see it), even at that he didn't directly accuse Cora and as usual the Boston media took that ball and ran it all the way into he endzone. I'm surprised we haven't seen an article blaming Carson for the type of pillow he uses. Even so, if he was tired and felt tired while he was pitching should he lie to reporters about it in an obviously frustrating moment? Being tired and still able to throw pitches is different, and if every player told their manager "do not use me today I am tired and cannot come in" when they felt any fatigue baseball would look very different and rosters would be much larger. That said I guess suppose this can cause people to "lose trust" or respect or whatever but not with me and ill stand by that. Pitchers are a breed unto themselves and the effective ones shouldnt be jettisoned for a small issue (this is not to say anything about what happens with his health). Like i said if they were able to talk it out and he improves physically I think it would be a huge waste of resources to toss aside an elite reliever because some people dont like him. Baseball again, would be very different if all players and coaches got along all the time, and the roster was approved by us the fans as to whether or not we respected him. Especially if he is forced to another team for peanuts and is back next year throwing worm burners killing our rallies in the latter innings. Just my two cents. Viva la Carson Smith.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 21, 2018 12:53:16 GMT -5
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you're missing the part where Smith threw his manager under the bus saying that he got overworked by Cora, which is silly considering that Cora used him in short stint low leverage situations and that Cora regularly conferred with him to make sure he was ok to pitch. If Smith said he couldn't go Cora would stay away from him. So if he really felt that he was overworked then who's fault was it really? It was the fault of the idiot who threw a temper tantrum and torpedoed his chance of reclaiming his career and pitching himself into trusted high leverage situations on a team that is post-season bound. I've lost total respect for Carson Smith. Don't think they should release him, but they shouldn't pay big bucks to rehab him. If it isn't big bucks, sure rehab and hope that he can stay healthy for a minute or two. But as far as ever relying or trusting the guy, forget it. He lost that trust. Fortunately the Sox only lost Wade Miley to secure Carson Smith's services. In actuality Carson Smith is all that's left from that Nick Punto deal. I guess when it was all said and done it wasn't who the Sox got for stapling Beckett, Crawford, and Punto to AGon, but it was totally the financial flexibility that the Sox got from the deal - they ultimately didn't get any useful players in the deal. I mentioned he had insinuated blame (guess you didn't see it), even at that he didn't directly accuse Cora and as usual the Boston media took that ball and ran it all the way into he endzone. I'm surprised we haven't seen an article blaming Carson for the type of pillow he uses. Even so, if he was tired and felt tired while he was pitching should he lie to reporters about it in an obviously frustrating moment? Being tired and still able to throw pitches is different, and if every player told their manager "do not use me today I am tired and cannot come in" when they felt any fatigue baseball would look very different and rosters would be much larger. That said I guess suppose this can cause people to "lose trust" or respect or whatever but not with me and ill stand by that. Pitchers are a breed unto themselves and the effective ones shouldnt be jettisoned for a small issue (this is not to say anything about what happens with his health). Like i said if they were able to talk it out and he improves physically I think it would be a huge waste of resources to toss aside an elite reliever because some people dont like him. Baseball again, would be very different if all players and coaches got along all the time, and the roster was approved by us the fans as to whether or not we respected him. Especially if he is forced to another team for peanuts and is back next year throwing worm burners killing our rallies in the latter innings. Just my two cents. Viva la Carson Smith. Nope. Didn't see it. Only heard the WEEI version of events. Didn't know that he was on the verge of tears. So I withdraw my position now that I know more. Unfortunately this guy is kind of star-crossed, and I don't know that the Sox will ever get any meaningful contribution from him. It's too bad. The trade didn't work out but when Dombrowski made the deal I thought it was a steal, a totally brilliant deal. We knew that he was an injury risk. We just didn't know it would go down like this. It seems almost inevitable that the Sox, despite the job Kelly has been doing and even Barnes for the most part, will need to supplement their bullpen with an acquisition come July.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 21, 2018 13:38:22 GMT -5
Didn't notice a link anywhere so apologies if it's been posted, but if you haven't seen him actually making his comments, as alluded to above, it's pretty clear his quote was taken out of context. nesn.com/2018/05/red-sox-pitcher-carson-smith-expresses-concern-over-shoulder-injury/In context, "fatigue was a factor" appears more to mean that his shoulder happened to be fatigued from pitching, and that's why when he threw his glove, something he does often, his shoulder subluxed, not "Alex Cora pitches me too much so fatigue is why I got hurt." I think "verge of tears" might be a little much but he was clearly worried, and the comment came as part of a much longer answer. It wasn't like the exchange was "Why'd you get hurt?" "My shoulder is fatigued because I'm throwing too much." By the way, as far as things go on the stupidity scale, throwing one's glove is pretty low on that spectrum. This wasn't punching a clubhouse wall or something. If you're going to vent your frustrations, tossing the glove is something I'd think of as a pretty safe way of doing it.
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