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Post by dmaineah on May 24, 2018 9:25:35 GMT -5
With his rehab time almost up would the best thing for him & the Sox be to option him to AAA?
Could this trade turn out to be historically bad?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 24, 2018 9:32:26 GMT -5
With his rehab time almost up would the best thing for him & the Sox be to option him to AAA? Could this trade turn out to be historically bad? No. He might start out rusty, but if he's completely healthy, he's arguably the best 8th inning option they have. The guy who pitched for the Brewers was an excellent setup man. The trade is already bad, but historically? It's not worse than Andersen for Bagwell, but it could approach it. It depends on how long Travis Shaw can sustain his productivity. That said, it's not like he's a young Bagwell. Dubon and Coca could be useful players. Maybe Dubon starts at 2b/ss but I think he profiles more as a good utility man? Coca is kind of a lottery ticket at this point. I liked the trade when it was made, so I was totally wrong about it. I thought the Shaw we saw at the end of 2016 was more or less the Shaw he'd be going forward, but there was a lot of pushback, I read, within the organization - guys that really liked Shaw and didn't want him moved because they believed in his power. They were right. I focused on the fact that he lost his job to Moncada and then Holt by Sept and Oct. I was wrong, wrong, wrong!
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Post by dmaineah on May 24, 2018 9:41:20 GMT -5
With his rehab time almost up would the best thing for him & the Sox be to option him to AAA? Could this trade turn out to be historically bad? No. He might start out rusty, but if he's completely healthy, he's arguably the best 8th inning option they have. The guy who pitched for the Brewers was an excellent setup man. The trade is already bad, but historically? It's not worse than Andersen for Bagwell, but it could approach it. It depends on how long Travis Shaw can sustain his productivity. That said, it's not like he's a young Bagwell. Dubon and Coca could be useful players. Maybe Dubon starts at 2b/ss but I think he profiles more as a good utility man? Coca is kind of a lottery ticket at this point. I liked the trade when it was made, so I was totally wrong about it. I thought the Shaw we saw at the end of 2016 was more or less the Shaw he'd be going forward, but there was a lot of pushback, I read, within the organization - guys that really liked Shaw and didn't want him moved because they believed in his power. They were right. I focused on the fact that he lost his job to Moncada and then Holt by Sept and Oct. I was wrong, wrong, wrong! You've got to be kidding. Have you seen or looked at the way he has pitched during his rehab assignment?
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Post by James Dunne on May 24, 2018 9:46:51 GMT -5
With his rehab time almost up would the best thing for him & the Sox be to option him to AAA? No. Yes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- No idea how good he's going to be or if he can salvage value from a trade that was insane in the first place, but he's a major leauge pitcher who is about ready to return to the major leagues: nesn.com/2018/05/watch-tyler-thornburg-fool-opposing-hitters-in-rehab-outing-with-pawsox/
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,274
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Post by radiohix on May 24, 2018 9:50:37 GMT -5
No. He might start out rusty, but if he's completely healthy, he's arguably the best 8th inning option they have. The guy who pitched for the Brewers was an excellent setup man. The trade is already bad, but historically? It's not worse than Andersen for Bagwell, but it could approach it. It depends on how long Travis Shaw can sustain his productivity. That said, it's not like he's a young Bagwell. Dubon and Coca could be useful players. Maybe Dubon starts at 2b/ss but I think he profiles more as a good utility man? Coca is kind of a lottery ticket at this point. I liked the trade when it was made, so I was totally wrong about it. I thought the Shaw we saw at the end of 2016 was more or less the Shaw he'd be going forward, but there was a lot of pushback, I read, within the organization - guys that really liked Shaw and didn't want him moved because they believed in his power. They were right. I focused on the fact that he lost his job to Moncada and then Holt by Sept and Oct. I was wrong, wrong, wrong! You've got to be kidding. Have you seen or looked at the way he has pitched during his rehab assignment? That's what rehab assignement (and Spring training games for that matter) are for. Guys working on fine tuning their stuff.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 24, 2018 9:51:55 GMT -5
No. He might start out rusty, but if he's completely healthy, he's arguably the best 8th inning option they have. The guy who pitched for the Brewers was an excellent setup man. The trade is already bad, but historically? It's not worse than Andersen for Bagwell, but it could approach it. It depends on how long Travis Shaw can sustain his productivity. That said, it's not like he's a young Bagwell. Dubon and Coca could be useful players. Maybe Dubon starts at 2b/ss but I think he profiles more as a good utility man? Coca is kind of a lottery ticket at this point. I liked the trade when it was made, so I was totally wrong about it. I thought the Shaw we saw at the end of 2016 was more or less the Shaw he'd be going forward, but there was a lot of pushback, I read, within the organization - guys that really liked Shaw and didn't want him moved because they believed in his power. They were right. I focused on the fact that he lost his job to Moncada and then Holt by Sept and Oct. I was wrong, wrong, wrong! You've got to be kidding. Have you seen or looked at the way he has pitched during his rehab assignment? I said if he's completely healthy and when I said that I was trying to imply - once the rust wears off. The guy who pitched for the Brewers was an excellent setup guy and better than all the other guys except for the way Kelly has pitched since Day 2 of the season. I'm still not sold on Kelly yet because of his history and his tendency to walk guys and make me nervous with all of those 3-2 counts he gets into and because he struggles to get swings and misses with his blazing fastball. My guess is Kelly will have his ups and downs this season going forward and if Thornburg can be completely healthy and the rust is off he could arguably be their best 8th inning option. But for that to happen a lot has to go right for Thornburg. Right now I don't know if he ever gets his stuff back that he had with the Brewers. Pitchers get injured and sometimes they never get their best stuff back. If he does he's their 8th inning guy. My guess is he won't as the odds are against him and I wouldn't want to rely on him anymore than I'd wanted to rely on Carson Smith. I'm not surprised he hasn't been lights out during his rehab assignment. The velocity is coming back but is his control/command going to being there? How long, if at all, does it take for him to get it all back? If he ever did, then arguably he'd be their best 8th inning option. That's what I was trying to say.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 24, 2018 9:55:55 GMT -5
The deal was historically bad but I do wonder what path would have been taken had Shaw remained with the Sox.
I'd guess we'd have not seen Devers in 2017? Perhaps with Shaw entrenched at 3b for 2017 perhaps they would have dealt away Devers which would be a bigger mistake? Perhaps in the Sale deal? Perhaps in a different deal that never happened?
Or perhaps they'd simply have Devers ready for 2018 and move Shaw to 1b. I guess Hanley would be penciled in at DH. I assume they still would have gone out and displace Hanley to the bench and sign JDM?
The one silver lining is that I'm glad that Devers is still here as 3b is clearly his.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 24, 2018 10:07:02 GMT -5
The deal was historically bad but I do wonder what path would have been taken had Shaw remained with the Sox. I'd guess we'd have not seen Devers in 2017? Perhaps with Shaw entrenched at 3b for 2017 perhaps they would have dealt away Devers which would be a bigger mistake? Perhaps in the Sale deal? Perhaps in a different deal that never happened? Or perhaps they'd simply have Devers ready for 2018 and move Shaw to 1b. I guess Hanley would be penciled in at DH. I assume they still would have gone out and displace Hanley to the bench and sign JDM? The one silver lining is that I'm glad that Devers is still here as 3b is clearly his. Wouldn't have seen Devers last year, but they wouldn't have traded him. They refused to trade him for Sale, instead opting to move Moncada. If Shaw is still on this roster, he's probably your primary 1B with Devers at 3B (gotta think he'd have gotten a September call-up?)? I hate to think it, but if Shaw's in the lineup giving them some pop last year, do they opt not to sign JD Martinez? Or perhaps they do and Shaw is currently the 3B, with Devers in AAA? My first inclination would be that Shaw simply takes Moreland's roster spot, but I can't imagine it'd be that simple, as Moreland wasn't signed to start, whereas Shaw's 2017 warrants a starting nod. EDIT: OK, clearly I didn't read your post closely enough, but yeah, it's interesting. One thing I'd add is that knowing what I've heard on Shaw, I wonder if he'd have had as good a 2017 as he did if he were still in Boston and he didn't necessarily have a clear role, at least entering the year. If he won it early he'd have been fine. Oh, and they wouldn't have traded for Nunez probably, right?
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Post by James Dunne on May 24, 2018 10:13:22 GMT -5
Shaw isn't what made the trade bad, either. Shaw-for-Thornburg would've been more than fair. His taking a step forward made it worse, for sure. But Dubon would be the best middle infielder in the system (even being out for the year), Coca would be like the fourth-best. Pennington is out of the game now, but maybe he, instead of Bautista or Nogosek ends up in the Reed trade.
That's the thing with a four-for-one for a reliever. Thornburg had the upside of a setup man and hasn't gotten there, while there were several ways the trade could go really wrong.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 24, 2018 10:20:06 GMT -5
Shaw isn't what made the trade bad, either. Shaw-for-Thornburg would've been more than fair. His taking a step forward made it worse, for sure. But Dubon would be the best middle infielder in the system (even being out for the year), Coca would be like the fourth-best. Pennington is out of the game now, but maybe he, instead of Bautista or Nogosek ends up in the Reed trade. That's the thing with a four-for-one for a reliever. Thornburg had the upside of a setup man and hasn't gotten there, while there were several ways the trade could go really wrong. And just think, Dubon's ACL injury and Pennington's second TJ/retirement could've added to the misery that's been the start of 2018 for this farm system! For what it's worth, given that Coca didn't do anything in rookie ball last year, I don't think he'd be ranked nearly that high even among the super-thin middle infield. I'd take Chatham, Flores, Espinal, Netzer, Lozada, Suarez, CDLG, Quiroz, Colon, and maybe Rivera over him.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 24, 2018 11:45:13 GMT -5
The deal was historically bad but I do wonder what path would have been taken had Shaw remained with the Sox. I'd guess we'd have not seen Devers in 2017? Perhaps with Shaw entrenched at 3b for 2017 perhaps they would have dealt away Devers which would be a bigger mistake? Perhaps in the Sale deal? Perhaps in a different deal that never happened? Or perhaps they'd simply have Devers ready for 2018 and move Shaw to 1b. I guess Hanley would be penciled in at DH. I assume they still would have gone out and displace Hanley to the bench and sign JDM? The one silver lining is that I'm glad that Devers is still here as 3b is clearly his. Wouldn't have seen Devers last year, but they wouldn't have traded him. They refused to trade him for Sale, instead opting to move Moncada. If Shaw is still on this roster, he's probably your primary 1B with Devers at 3B (gotta think he'd have gotten a September call-up?)? I hate to think it, but if Shaw's in the lineup giving them some pop last year, do they opt not to sign JD Martinez? Or perhaps they do and Shaw is currently the 3B, with Devers in AAA? My first inclination would be that Shaw simply takes Moreland's roster spot, but I can't imagine it'd be that simple, as Moreland wasn't signed to start, whereas Shaw's 2017 warrants a starting nod. EDIT: OK, clearly I didn't read your post closely enough, but yeah, it's interesting. One thing I'd add is that knowing what I've heard on Shaw, I wonder if he'd have had as good a 2017 as he did if he were still in Boston and he didn't necessarily have a clear role, at least entering the year. If he won it early he'd have been fine. Oh, and they wouldn't have traded for Nunez probably, right? I don't know. I'm trying to remember, but I think initially the thought was that Nunez would play 3b, but Devers was tearing up the minors and Pedroia got hurt - can't remember if Pedroia was already injured when Nunez was acquired, but I think they had the thought of needing somebody who could also play 2b. I think they probably knew that it was highly likely they'd be giving Devers a shot. I just can't remember the injury timeline for Pedroia. I think they would have acquired Nunez anyways given that Holt was not doing well and that Pedroia was at least banged up, if not injured.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 24, 2018 13:01:20 GMT -5
They traded for Nunez on 7/26. Pedroia went on the DL on August 1 after having last played on 7/28. He then came off the DL for one game on August 8 before sitting the rest of August. So while they knew he was dinged up, I'm not sure they'd have traded for someone on 7/26. That said, they may have done something closer to the deadline, but it might not have been as significant a pickup if the goal was just to upgrade Holt rather than find someone to cover a starting spot.
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Post by James Dunne on May 24, 2018 13:04:47 GMT -5
And to add another wrinkle, Shaun Anderson has been really good in Double-A Richmond. 2.70 ERA, 52 K's, 12 BB in 50 innings.
Not to be a broken record here, but that's the thing with all these extra prospects getting thrown in deals. Even beyond the Thornburg mess, it's hard to think that the Kimbrel deal hinged on Carlos Asuaje, and if he's not in the deal they probably still have Anderson.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 24, 2018 13:17:58 GMT -5
Eh, at the time Asuaje was whatever. I think Allen was the "wait, him too?" piece, and he would've been nice to hang on to. Frankly, he'd probably be the system's top prospect right now. They were both in the Top 15 of a pretty deep system, which really just ate into their options moving forward. I was disappointed to lose Allen for sure but I feel like he was more the type the Padres might have been targeting specifically. With Asuaje, he always had the utility infielder upside, and that's essentially remained his track. It's possible (maybe even likely) the Padres got a good report on him and wanted him. But it feels like there's no chance the Red Sox pull Asuaje out of that deal and the Padres kill it. That might have been true with Allen. But yes, Allen would be at worst, the #1b prospect in the organization right now with Groome the #1a. I was thinking more the June rankings, in which Groome will take a big tumble (it's entirely possible he misses both this year and next - that's a huge problem for his development). I'd have gone with Groome pre-TJ, but post-TJ it's Allen, no question.
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Thornburg
May 24, 2018 14:33:27 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by m1keyboots on May 24, 2018 14:33:27 GMT -5
No. He might start out rusty, but if he's completely healthy, he's arguably the best 8th inning option they have. The guy who pitched for the Brewers was an excellent setup man. The trade is already bad, but historically? It's not worse than Andersen for Bagwell, but it could approach it. It depends on how long Travis Shaw can sustain his productivity. That said, it's not like he's a young Bagwell. Dubon and Coca could be useful players. Maybe Dubon starts at 2b/ss but I think he profiles more as a good utility man? Coca is kind of a lottery ticket at this point. I liked the trade when it was made, so I was totally wrong about it. I thought the Shaw we saw at the end of 2016 was more or less the Shaw he'd be going forward, but there was a lot of pushback, I read, within the organization - guys that really liked Shaw and didn't want him moved because they believed in his power. They were right. I focused on the fact that he lost his job to Moncada and then Holt by Sept and Oct. I was wrong, wrong, wrong! You've got to be kidding. Have you seen or looked at the way he has pitched during his rehab assignment? He was referring to "the guy that pitched for the Brewers". That guy was one of the most lights out non-closers in the modern era that year and even the two previous to an extent.
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Thornburg
May 25, 2018 15:49:02 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Addam603 on May 25, 2018 15:49:02 GMT -5
Thornburg has been recalled from his rehab assignment. Will be eligible to start another rehab assignment next Friday. I don’t believe it was due to any sort of injury or pain. I think they’re just trying to slowly ease him back.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Jun 4, 2018 12:25:25 GMT -5
Any news? He is showing 10 day DL status, but no longer is listed as rehabbing at any farm team...set back? Reassessing?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 4, 2018 14:01:29 GMT -5
Any news? He is showing 10 day DL status, but no longer is listed as rehabbing at any farm team...set back? Reassessing? The answer is in the post above yours. EDIT: Although he is eligible to begin another assignment and hasn't yet, which is interesting, now that you mention it.
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Thornburg
Jun 26, 2018 15:41:20 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Addam603 on Jun 26, 2018 15:41:20 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 26, 2018 16:15:45 GMT -5
I don't think he's saying he's necessarily going to get activated after the Saturday outing.
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Post by dmaineah on Jun 27, 2018 10:06:10 GMT -5
I still think that best thing for him & the Sox is for him to be optioned to AAA & pitch there even if its only for 19 days.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 27, 2018 10:12:14 GMT -5
I still think that best thing for him & the Sox is for him to be optioned to AAA & pitch there even if its only for 19 days. He's actually been pretty good in his most recent rehab, save for one outing where he got bombed. He's made 7 appearances. In 6, he's 6.0-2-1-1-1-3, with the run on a solo shot. In the other, he went just 1/3 of an inning and allowed 3 runs on 4 hits, so his entire line looks awful. The more important benchmarks he needs to hit are the ones off the stat sheet - things like how he feels, how the stuff/command is, how resilient his arm is, etc. That's why the plan is what it is - make these two appearances, go figure out the next step. Could be he needs to get optioned to get more time.
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Thornburg
Jun 27, 2018 11:37:27 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by sarasoxer on Jun 27, 2018 11:37:27 GMT -5
Saw Thornburg on Nesn Pawtucket game recently and he was at 92-93.
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radiohix
Veteran
'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
Posts: 6,274
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Post by radiohix on Jul 5, 2018 9:48:14 GMT -5
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Post by iakovos11 on Jul 5, 2018 9:51:36 GMT -5
and/or did the Sox screw up in the process of evaluating his medicals or doing a physical?
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