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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 5, 2018 11:51:37 GMT -5
I'm cool with it. Heck, trade Price & JBJ & Thornburgh to the Yankees. Replenish the farm system and still beat the Yankees in the playoffs! Yea I'm cool with it I really have no idea if you're for real or a troll or a bot because your posts are so insane. So I guess we can now expect to see a new "Trade David Price" thread being started soon in the subforum?
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Post by michael on Jul 5, 2018 15:50:31 GMT -5
A quick look at the Sox schedule seems to show that a regular start every 5th (6th day if an off day occurs) would only have Price scheduled v. NYY once in the remaining games. In that series he'd be scheduled to pitch the last game so they 'could' hold him back the one day. It's in Sep so plenty of extra arms about. Geez, HOF manager Casey Stengel would hold HOFer Whitey Ford out of Fenway starts. I know that was 60 plus years ago but so was the Williams Shift.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 5, 2018 16:02:10 GMT -5
A quick look at the Sox schedule seems to show that a regular start every 5th (6th day if an off day occurs) would only have Price scheduled v. NYY once in the remaining games. In that series he'd be scheduled to pitch the last game so they 'could' hold him back the one day. It's in Sep so plenty of extra arms about. Geez, HOF manager Casey Stengel would hold HOFer Whitey Ford out of Fenway starts. I know that was 60 plus years ago but so was the Williams Shift. All I can say is that if they're actually thinking about this, they should make the move in a really subtle way (like give an extra day rest 3 weeks before that game) so the media doesn't run with it.
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Post by jclmontana on Jul 5, 2018 20:29:06 GMT -5
What to do with Price? You hope that the team monitors his medicals, along with his performance, and pray they don’t pull a repeat of how the Sox handled John Lackey in 2011.
David Price has a chronic elbow/forearm condition . He might play it off as no big deal, (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsports.com/boston/boston-red-sox/boston-red-sox-left-hander-david-price-explains-self-healing-elbow-says-recent-injury-lower-triceps%3famp) but he has a bunch of miles on his elbow, and now he is no longer an Ace, he has some good days and some bad days. Not surprising that his worst days come against a high powered offense like the Wankees, who also play in a bandbox.
Believe Price’s drivel if you want about how he has a magic elbow that is self-healing, but that is just distraction—Price playing mind games with the media. Reading between the lines, it sure seems that Price is simply a surgery candidate who is instead going the rehab route. And the rehab route is fine, except that there will be times when a pitcher will need more rest, maybe a DL stint, or will be able to pitch, but have diminished stuff.
I just hope that if Price needs surgery, he gets it. But I can see a lot of reasons why it might not happen. Price’s stubbornness, the size of his contract, his upcoming opt-out date, and a (misguided?) belief that an impaired Price is still better than Johnson/Beeks/ Pomeranz etc.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 6, 2018 6:47:40 GMT -5
What to do with Price? You hope that the team monitors his medicals, along with his performance, and pray they don’t pull a repeat of how the Sox handled John Lackey in 2011. David Price has a chronic elbow/forearm condition . He might play it off as no big deal, (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsports.com/boston/boston-red-sox/boston-red-sox-left-hander-david-price-explains-self-healing-elbow-says-recent-injury-lower-triceps%3famp) but he has a bunch of miles on his elbow, and now he is no longer an Ace, he has some good days and some bad days. Not surprising that his worst days come against a high powered offense like the Wankees, who also play in a bandbox. Believe Price’s drivel if you want about how he has a magic elbow that is self-healing, but that is just distraction—Price playing mind games with the media. Reading between the lines, it sure seems that Price is simply a surgery candidate who is instead going the rehab route. And the rehab route is fine, except that there will be times when a pitcher will need more rest, maybe a DL stint, or will be able to pitch, but have diminished stuff. I just hope that if Price needs surgery, he gets it. But I can see a lot of reasons why it might not happen. Price’s stubbornness, the size of his contract, his upcoming opt-out date, and a (misguided?) belief that an impaired Price is still better than Johnson/Beeks/ Pomeranz etc. . It was Dr. Andrews that spouted the drivel, not Price. That's a big difference. Are you calling him a liar? He has no motivation to say that.
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Post by jclmontana on Jul 6, 2018 8:50:30 GMT -5
What to do with Price? You hope that the team monitors his medicals, along with his performance, and pray they don’t pull a repeat of how the Sox handled John Lackey in 2011. David Price has a chronic elbow/forearm condition . He might play it off as no big deal, (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsports.com/boston/boston-red-sox/boston-red-sox-left-hander-david-price-explains-self-healing-elbow-says-recent-injury-lower-triceps%3famp) but he has a bunch of miles on his elbow, and now he is no longer an Ace, he has some good days and some bad days. Not surprising that his worst days come against a high powered offense like the Wankees, who also play in a bandbox. Believe Price’s drivel if you want about how he has a magic elbow that is self-healing, but that is just distraction—Price playing mind games with the media. Reading between the lines, it sure seems that Price is simply a surgery candidate who is instead going the rehab route. And the rehab route is fine, except that there will be times when a pitcher will need more rest, maybe a DL stint, or will be able to pitch, but have diminished stuff. I just hope that if Price needs surgery, he gets it. But I can see a lot of reasons why it might not happen. Price’s stubbornness, the size of his contract, his upcoming opt-out date, and a (misguided?) belief that an impaired Price is still better than Johnson/Beeks/ Pomeranz etc. . It was Dr. Andrews that spouted the drivel, not Price. That's a big difference. Are you calling him a liar? He has no motivation to say that. It was not clear from the article who said it about Price’s elbow. But that is not what makes it silly to talk about self healing elbows. Every pitcher that has gone the rehab route for a damaged elbow and subsequently pitched again has a “self-healing elbow, right? It irritates me because everybody has a self- healing elbow, so it becomes a meaningless and kind of dumb statement
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 6, 2018 9:13:00 GMT -5
It was Dr. Andrews that spouted the drivel, not Price. That's a big difference. Are you calling him a liar? He has no motivation to say that. It was not clear from the article who said it about Price’s elbow. But that is not what makes it silly to talk about self healing elbows. Every pitcher that has gone the rehab route for a damaged elbow and subsequently pitched again has a “self-healing elbow, right? It irritates me because everybody has a self- healing elbow, so it becomes a meaningless and kind of dumb statement Andrews said that Price's elbow is similar to only Nolan Ryan's elbow and that he never saw anyone else with one like it.
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Post by jclmontana on Jul 6, 2018 10:51:04 GMT -5
It was not clear from the article who said it about Price’s elbow. But that is not what makes it silly to talk about self healing elbows. Every pitcher that has gone the rehab route for a damaged elbow and subsequently pitched again has a “self-healing elbow, right? It irritates me because everybody has a self- healing elbow, so it becomes a meaningless and kind of dumb statement Andrews said that Price's elbow is similar to only Nolan Ryan's elbow and that he never saw anyone else with one like it. After a hasty google search, I didn’t come up with any article with that quote. A source would be apprciated. This article sabr.org/latest/rosenthal-medical-quirk-afflicted-nolan-ryan-gives-david-price-some-comfort references an Andrews quote saying self-healing isn’t uncommon, but does mention Ryan as an example of self-healing. "According to Dr. James Andrews, one of two physicians who examined Price in March, that self-healing is not entirely uncommon."
I think it is pretty simple. Price has an injury history with his forearm/elbow. He doesn’t seem to have a magic elbow, so even if he has greater than average healing ability, it is still an elbow with problems. Therefore, based on the limited information available, I lump Price in witth other rehab pitchers with high mileage arms and try to adjust my expectattions accordingly. I think my take on this is actually pretty fair and reasonable.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 6, 2018 11:44:06 GMT -5
Andrews said that Price's elbow is similar to only Nolan Ryan's elbow and that he never saw anyone else with one like it. After a hasty google search, I didn’t come up with any article with that quote. A source would be apprciated. This article sabr.org/latest/rosenthal-medical-quirk-afflicted-nolan-ryan-gives-david-price-some-comfort references an Andrews quote saying self-healing isn’t uncommon, but does mention Ryan as an example of self-healing. I think it is pretty simple. Price has an injury history with his forearm/elbow. He doesn’t seem to have a magic elbow, so even if he has greater than average healing ability, it is still an elbow with problems. Therefore, based on the limited information available, I lump Price in witth other rehab pitchers with high mileage arms and try to adjust my expectattions accordingly. I think my take on this is actually pretty fair and reasonable. We talked about it here pretty extensively last year. I don't keep sources around in case someone doesn't believe me. Believe what you wish. I mean why would anyone get TJS if everyone had a self-healing elbow? You've moved the goalposts from your first post when you didn't believe that Price had a self-healing elbow.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Jul 6, 2018 12:19:05 GMT -5
After a hasty google search, I didn’t come up with any article with that quote. A source would be apprciated. This article sabr.org/latest/rosenthal-medical-quirk-afflicted-nolan-ryan-gives-david-price-some-comfort references an Andrews quote saying self-healing isn’t uncommon, but does mention Ryan as an example of self-healing. I think it is pretty simple. Price has an injury history with his forearm/elbow. He doesn’t seem to have a magic elbow, so even if he has greater than average healing ability, it is still an elbow with problems. Therefore, based on the limited information available, I lump Price in witth other rehab pitchers with high mileage arms and try to adjust my expectattions accordingly. I think my take on this is actually pretty fair and reasonable. We talked about it here pretty extensively last year. I don't keep sources around in case someone doesn't believe me. Believe what you wish. I remember that discussion but have no idea where to find it. At that time I looked up (a laborious task for someone with my skill levels) and learned that most Red Sox pitchers have better results pitching every 6 days, particularly Chris Sale. Only one SP did not pitch significantly better with an extra rest day. In addition to improved performance and more wins, such a schedule would also serve to prevent late season fatigue and fade, while also reducing potential for the arm damage being discussed here. It made great sense to me at the time considering the unique depth of the Sox rotation. Especially considering all the built in days off in 2018 and, I assume, moving forward. The conundrum is that we want the best pitchers every five days. But if Sale or Price or Pom or Porcello or ERod or Wright or Johnson or Velasquez/Beeks/Shepherd get hurt, then that 5-day model fails anyways. I thought it would be worth a try. In 2018 we have added the surprising Rays "bullpen day special" as a possibility for that 6th day. So, if in using some version of this model most appropriate to this team, the pitchers pitch better, avoid fatigue, minimize arm damage, and win more games, why not?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 6, 2018 12:46:36 GMT -5
We talked about it here pretty extensively last year. I don't keep sources around in case someone doesn't believe me. Believe what you wish. I remember that discussion but have no idea where to find it. At that time I looked up (a laborious task for someone with my skill levels) and learned that most Red Sox pitchers have better results pitching every 6 days, particularly Chris Sale. Only one SP did not pitch significantly better with an extra rest day. In addition to improved performance and more wins, such a schedule would also serve to prevent late season fatigue and fade, while also reducing potential for the arm damage being discussed here. It made great sense to me at the time considering the unique depth of the Sox rotation. Especially considering all the built in days off in 2018 and, I assume, moving forward. The conundrum is that we want the best pitchers every five days. But if Sale or Price or Pom or Porcello or ERod or Wright or Johnson or Velasquez/Beeks/Shepherd get hurt, then that 5-day model fails anyways. I thought it would be worth a try. In 2018 we have added the surprising Rays "bullpen day special" as a possibility for that 6th day. So, if in using some version of this model most appropriate to this team, the pitchers pitch better, avoid fatigue, minimize arm damage, and win more games, why not? Don't think it's going to happen but if Steven Wright and Drew Pomeranz can come back healthy and reasonably effective, the Sox do have the personnel to pull it off. If only 1 of them comes back healthy they could still pull it off because of Brian Johnson as well. I do like the idea of giving Sale as much rest as possible. The Sale we're seeing now is the guy I want to see in October. I don't want him blazing through June, July, and August, and even September and then running out of gas. I hope the Sox actually have him pitch the 5th game after the all-star break, kind of what the Sox did in 2013 (I believe) for Jon Lester to give him a breather. I think that could help Sale as well, and I do have a selfish motive - it would line up Sale against the Twins on 7/29 - the one game this year I have tickets for! And I think the extra day would also benefit Price, E-Rod and probably Porcello. But the downside is a few less Sale starts in favor of Brian Johnson/Drew Pomeranz and in a close race that could be the difference between the division and the Wild Card game. I still like the idea and there would be times it's not necessary. The Sox have some days off in August, more than I would have anticipated, so that could help as well and negate the need for a 6th starter. Whatever they do, I really like the idea of keeping the starters as fresh as possible. I think it can make a difference.
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Post by jclmontana on Jul 6, 2018 13:43:50 GMT -5
After a hasty google search, I didn’t come up with any article with that quote. A source would be apprciated. This article sabr.org/latest/rosenthal-medical-quirk-afflicted-nolan-ryan-gives-david-price-some-comfort references an Andrews quote saying self-healing isn’t uncommon, but does mention Ryan as an example of self-healing. I think it is pretty simple. Price has an injury history with his forearm/elbow. He doesn’t seem to have a magic elbow, so even if he has greater than average healing ability, it is still an elbow with problems. Therefore, based on the limited information available, I lump Price in witth other rehab pitchers with high mileage arms and try to adjust my expectattions accordingly. I think my take on this is actually pretty fair and reasonable. We talked about it here pretty extensively last year. I don't keep sources around in case someone doesn't believe me. Believe what you wish. I mean why would anyone get TJS if everyone had a self-healing elbow? You've moved the goalposts from your first post when you didn't believe that Price had a self-healing elbow. Moving beyond debating etiquette, can we at least agree that that Price’s level of self-healing is “not uncommon” (Dr. Andrew’s words, not mine), and that Price’s injury history and the state of his elbow are legitimate talking points? Because if we are going to discuss what to do with Price, his health would have an important role to play in that discussion.
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Post by cdj on Jul 6, 2018 14:37:41 GMT -5
You keep letting him get back on the horse against the Yankees. He’s probably going to face them at least one more time this year. If he does poorly again then you don’t use him against the Yankees in the playoffs. Otherwise it’s business as usual Imo. Throw him out there every 5th day.
I think there is something to the injury talk about his elbow though. He doesn’t have the same command he once did. I expected velocity to tick down Due to his extensive usage over the course of his career but the command is surprising to me and that’s why I think he’s still not 100%.
You hope he goes out there and does what he did for 8 of 9 starts leading into the last one
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 6, 2018 14:48:32 GMT -5
I would feel real comfortable with Price against the Yankees if he's in the bullpen. The Yankees are comfortable hitting 91-94 mph Price as a starter.
Can they hit 94-97 mph Price as a reliever?
I doubt it. When Price is throwing that hard, he is one of the best pitchers in baseball.
Edit- I still have nightmares of 98 mph Price striking out JD Drew in game 7 of the 2008 ALCS.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jul 6, 2018 15:08:02 GMT -5
I would feel real comfortable with Price against the Yankees if he's in the bullpen. The Yankees are comfortable hitting 91-94 mph Price as a starter. Can they hit 94-97 mph Price as a reliever? I doubt it. When Price is throwing that hard, he is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Edit- I still have nightmares of 98 mph Price striking out JD Drew in game 7 of the 2008 ALCS. Me, too. That pitch was really a ball that JD Drew got rung up on. I wish Ortiz, Lowell, and Beckett were healthy that post-season. If they were I believe the Sox would have repeated as World Champions in 2008. I remember that I hadn't anticipated Maddon using Price as the closer in the highest leverage situation possible. He did, though, probably because of the way the Rays totally blew what was going to be clinching Game 5 at Fenway when they had a 7-0 lead and the bullpen couldn't hold it. That was one of the greatest post-season game comebacks of all-time but it's kind of forgotten because of Matt Garza's career game and David Price getting that called K against Drew. I'm still in the "If Price is one of the best 4 options he starts, otherwise he relieves" mode. And like you said Price can be nasty coming out of the pen, and if the Sox add another high leverage reliever and/or Thornburg comes back all the way the pen could really become a big strength. That would all depend upon Wright returning to what he was doing prior to the Seattle start and/or Pomeranz coming back and pitching like last season (unlikely as he's still getting whacked around in AAA). Against the Yankees if Price continues to struggle against NY I lower the threshold bar of who's a better starting option than Price. It's not a given that Price is better than Porcello or E-Rod by the end of the season, although I still think he will be.
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Post by jimed14 on Jul 6, 2018 15:45:01 GMT -5
We talked about it here pretty extensively last year. I don't keep sources around in case someone doesn't believe me. Believe what you wish. I mean why would anyone get TJS if everyone had a self-healing elbow? You've moved the goalposts from your first post when you didn't believe that Price had a self-healing elbow. Moving beyond debating etiquette, can we at least agree that that Price’s level of self-healing is “not uncommon” (Dr. Andrew’s words, not mine), and that Price’s injury history and the state of his elbow are legitimate talking points? Because if we are going to discuss what to do with Price, his health would have an important role to play in that discussion. I see a pitcher that looked certain to be headed for TJS last season to one who is currently healthy and having a decent but not great season. There isn't anything to do with him now. In all, I'm pretty ecstatic that he didn't need TJS and we aren't short a #3 starter right now.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 9, 2018 9:47:47 GMT -5
I would feel real comfortable with Price against the Yankees if he's in the bullpen. The Yankees are comfortable hitting 91-94 mph Price as a starter. Can they hit 94-97 mph Price as a reliever? I doubt it. When Price is throwing that hard, he is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Edit- I still have nightmares of 98 mph Price striking out JD Drew in game 7 of the 2008 ALCS. The two really weird assumptions you're apparently 100% confident in are that 1) David Price specific (and yet non-specific) YANKEES problem and 2) that whatever that problem is, it will definitely be solved by moving him to the bullpen.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 9, 2018 13:03:18 GMT -5
I would feel real comfortable with Price against the Yankees if he's in the bullpen. The Yankees are comfortable hitting 91-94 mph Price as a starter. Can they hit 94-97 mph Price as a reliever? I doubt it. When Price is throwing that hard, he is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Edit- I still have nightmares of 98 mph Price striking out JD Drew in game 7 of the 2008 ALCS. The two really weird assumptions you're apparently 100% confident in are that 1) David Price specific (and yet non-specific) YANKEES problem and 2) that whatever that problem is, it will definitely be solved by moving him to the bullpen. You don't think that extra velocity in short stints will help Price and the Sox in the biggest Sox moments? Andrew Miller was arguably one of the reasons why the Indians went as far as they did 2 years ago. Really good bullpen pieces tend to really matter come playoff time.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jul 9, 2018 23:22:24 GMT -5
I would feel real comfortable with Price against the Yankees if he's in the bullpen. The Yankees are comfortable hitting 91-94 mph Price as a starter. Can they hit 94-97 mph Price as a reliever? I doubt it. When Price is throwing that hard, he is one of the best pitchers in baseball. Edit- I still have nightmares of 98 mph Price striking out JD Drew in game 7 of the 2008 ALCS. The two really weird assumptions you're apparently 100% confident in are that 1) David Price specific (and yet non-specific) YANKEES problem and 2) that whatever that problem is, it will definitely be solved by moving him to the bullpen. I don't think Price is good in big games. I think occasionally he does fine, but most of the time he crumbles when he's starting. I'd be almost willing to bet his next start against NY isn't good. I don't believe in clutch, but I do believe in choking and getting into your own head.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jul 10, 2018 7:13:03 GMT -5
The two really weird assumptions you're apparently 100% confident in are that 1) David Price specific (and yet non-specific) YANKEES problem and 2) that whatever that problem is, it will definitely be solved by moving him to the bullpen. You don't think that extra velocity in short stints will help Price and the Sox in the biggest Sox moments? Andrew Miller was arguably one of the reasons why the Indians went as far as they did 2 years ago. Really good bullpen pieces tend to really matter come playoff time. I don't think you can assume that David Price + bullpen = Andrew Miller. It probably makes him more effective on a per inning basis, yes. But that's true of every starter, so why is it a necessity for Price specifically? Plus, if there is something genuinely wrong with price beyond general decline, well, bullpens don't heal UCLs. If it's a mental problem, they don't necessarily cure that either. Isn't the whole thing that he isn't good in big situations or whatever? Ok great, let's bring him out of the bullpen to protect a one run lead in an elimination game. Makes perfect sense. Here's the thing: there's still almost a half season of baseball left to play. Let Price pitch the rest of the year, let everyone else pitch the rest of the year too. It only takes one injury to blow this whole conversation up. Yes, someone probably moves to the bullpen come October, but that discussion can happen sometime around the middle of September, when we know who's healthy, who's performing, how the bullpen is looking, etc. It's ridiculously premature to decide that Price just HAS to be in the bullpen before we're even at the All Star Game.
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Post by danr on Jul 10, 2018 10:54:52 GMT -5
I don't think Price is injured. I think his problem may be aging. That can explain why sometimes he is terrific and sometimes he isn't. People age at different rates but we all start aging in our early 30s. Some just do it faster than others. Being a much older person I can say that I have days when I can do things as well - sometimes even better - as I could many years ago. Other days, well, I just as soon forget them!
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jul 10, 2018 18:18:09 GMT -5
The current starting pitching depth chart is fairly clear:
Sale Wright, very probably (small chance he belongs 4th)
Rodriguez (wins tiebreaker via greater start-to-start upside) Porcello Price Pomeranz Johnson Velazquez Beeks
Pomeranz will come back sooner than Wright. When Wright comes back as well, either Price or Pomeranz has to go to the pen, where both have had significant success and would be very useful. If Pomeranz outpitches Price during the preceding interval, then Price indeed should go to the pen. After all, Pomeranz had the better season last year, too.
There's not a great deal of shame and scandal difference between a $31M fifth starter and a $31M set-up reliever.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jul 10, 2018 18:37:52 GMT -5
The current starting pitching depth chart is fairly clear:
Sale Wright, very probably (small chance he belongs 4th)
Rodriguez (wins tiebreaker via greater start-to-start upside) Porcello Price Pomeranz Johnson Velazquez Beeks
Pomeranz will come back sooner than Wright. When Wright comes back as well, either Price or Pomeranz has to go to the pen, where both have had significant success and would be very useful. If Pomeranz outpitches Price during the preceding interval, then Price indeed should go to the pen. After all, Pomeranz had the better season last year, too.
There's not a great deal of shame and scandal difference between a $31M fifth starter and a $31M set-up reliever.
All depends if Wright comes fully back, which is a huge question, but I agree with this in general. Price looks like the 5th starter right now.
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 12, 2018 21:02:40 GMT -5
Includes NYY blowup Stats Post NYY blowup
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Post by ericmvan on Sept 12, 2018 23:10:14 GMT -5
The Yankees debacle was not the turning point in terms of results. He apparently started working on changes immediately thereafter, but he had a 5.56 ERA in his next two starts, with 17 K and 1 BB, but 3 HR and a .360 BABIP. The 3 HR is more than he's given up since. He had to make a second adjustment to trade some K/W in order for a dramatic reduction in hard contact.
And b-Ref doesn't update until the next day.
Since July 20, he's made 9 starts. His line:
57.2 39 10 10 9 60.
That's a 1.56 ERA. He's average 6.8 IP per start, exclusive of the game he had to leave early.
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