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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 17, 2019 21:50:04 GMT -5
Are they waiting Kimbrel out or giving Feldman a long look in the spring? They're waiting out Kimbrel and not expecting to sign him and then they'll see who's left standing for one year and sign that pitcher. It's not likely going to be some overwhelming pitcher who'll make the Sox a lot better. As far as Feltman, Lakins, and Hernandez are not being counted on for 2019. Alex Speier has already discussed that with Dombrowski. The Sox are not relying on minor leaguers to take key bullpen spots
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 17, 2019 21:51:52 GMT -5
We got em in the minors. This is what resetting in 2020 looks like. We have bullpen arms that can replace Kimbrel and Kelly in the minors next year? That is very unlikely. I don't buy it, they made Kelly a two year offer, were in on other guys, the Kimbrel stuff won't die. It makes zero sense, type of crap you only do if your resetting this year, not next year. They can sign guys to one year offers. Heck most of the guys left are getting one year. That's why this nothing screams Kimbrel. No way DD doesn't add a big time bullpen arm. Dombrowski is doing his best to kill it. He is quoted as saying the Sox have lost two guys - doesn't sound like a guy who's about to bring Kimbrel back. I would prepare for either Barnes or perhaps Chad Allen or Greg Holland to be their closer.
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Post by soxjim on Jan 17, 2019 23:01:50 GMT -5
All I know is in pro sports if you’re not getting better, you’re getting worse. So far at least no indication this pen is better - in either depth or ability - than it was last year. Last year was one of the greatest teams in the modern era of all time and-- they had the highest payroll in baseball I think. One of the greatest teams in the modern era ever. duplicating 108 wins and no team stretched the sox in a deciding game in the playoffs is brutally hard to duplicate even if you get many more players. Caps have a way of forcing team's hands too. But-- Next year hopefully they have a full seaosn of Sale. Who is to say price can't pitch at all-star level? Can't erod be better by pitching more games? Can't a full season of Eovaldi be better than what they previously had? Can't Wright be better than Johnson and velazquez as a starter and be better than Joe Kelly in the bullpen? who is to say 1b can't improve from last year for a full season with Pearce/Moreland vs Moreland and . . .? What about 2b this year Pedey/Holt vs Holt/Nunez? It's not hard to believe Xander can duplicate or improve, is it? ANd 3b Devers can improve a lot, can't he/ And now a full season of a healthy Vazquez who seemed to be the preferred guy over Leon late in the year - and ofc Swihart. Can't they play better or 1 be traded? Can''t Beni improve? What about JBJ dropping at one point early to a .170 hitter - - can't he be more consistent from the plate after tweaking his swing? The point is - ofc anything can go wrong bu even if everything goes very well- last years team was among the greatest ever in the modern era and you still heard 1-- We didn't beat teams by enough runs. 2-- Price stinks and needs to go to the bullpen. 3-- The bullpen is weak and NEEDS other pitchers. 4-- The Red SOx were cheap for not getting bullpen help last year even back then there was no evidence that there bullpen didn't need help to improve.. And now we're at the same point of 3 and 4 again for some. Hey whatever. Only one team can win it all. One can always complain and the probability is that the team won't win it all - they'll end up being right. I did the same thing with Farrell. just like you had those who stuck up for him-- I'm 100% with DD - and have a ton of confidence on him. One poster referred to fans complaining during the game about the bullpen. That matters to some? That doesn't even register one-infinity of a second to me. They were wrong last year and DD wasn't. I think Sox are looking to go under the cap next year. As a result DD is making the correct move here by seeing what his existing bullpen can do just like he did last year when he was right for standing still. Maybe he gets one inexpensive guy. And --- I love using starters in the bullpen in the playoffs!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 17, 2019 23:07:25 GMT -5
We have bullpen arms that can replace Kimbrel and Kelly in the minors next year? That is very unlikely. I don't buy it, they made Kelly a two year offer, were in on other guys, the Kimbrel stuff won't die. It makes zero sense, type of crap you only do if your resetting this year, not next year. They can sign guys to one year offers. Heck most of the guys left are getting one year. That's why this nothing screams Kimbrel. No way DD doesn't add a big time bullpen arm. Dombrowski is doing his best to kill it. He is quoted as saying the Sox have lost two guys - doesn't sound like a guy who's about to bring Kimbrel back. I would prepare for either Barnes or perhaps Chad Allen or Greg Holland to be their closer. He's all over the place, no big expenditures, whatever that means. We like our guys. Yet we do have some room as in money to spend. Ends it by not sure if they will or won't add a guy. Unless you know what DD means by big expenditure you really have no clue what he's saying. I know you think that means a one year small contract. I'm not sure that is what DD thinks though. Either he's blowing smoke or he has zero clue. Last time he said this and we had reports the next day they were in on a bunch of guys, including Kimbrel. I'm ok with an Allen, if you add a second guy for insurance. I'm not ok with nothing and I don't buy for one second he adds no one. Which is why I think this might be him blowing smoke and big expenditure could be in refrence to a massive contract. Otherwise why have they been waiting on Kimbrel?
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bosox
Veteran
Posts: 2,117
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Post by bosox on Jan 17, 2019 23:18:18 GMT -5
As I posted in the Non-RedSox offseason thread, it looks like Cody Allen is headed to the Angels. I can't believe DD is going with a weaker pen than last year. It will be interesting to see who is in the Opening Day bullpen.
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Post by kenster on Jan 17, 2019 23:57:47 GMT -5
I actually think at this moment, an argument can be made that the Red Sox have the worst bullpen on paper in MLB.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 18, 2019 0:28:34 GMT -5
I actually think at this moment, an argument can be made that the Red Sox have the worst bullpen on paper in MLB. Name a Royals reliever. No cheating.
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Post by slam761 on Jan 18, 2019 0:50:16 GMT -5
Anyone else confused to see Dombrowski specifically mention Wright as one of his 4 closer candidates? I'm intrigued by the thought of a knuckleballing closer, but that really seems to waste his valuable ability to easily throw multiple innings
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 18, 2019 1:07:43 GMT -5
Dombrowski is doing his best to kill it. He is quoted as saying the Sox have lost two guys - doesn't sound like a guy who's about to bring Kimbrel back. I would prepare for either Barnes or perhaps Chad Allen or Greg Holland to be their closer. He's all over the place, no big expenditures, whatever that means. We like our guys. Yet we do have some room as in money to spend. Ends it by not sure if they will or won't add a guy. Unless you know what DD means by big expenditure you really have no clue what he's saying. I know you think that means a one year small contract. I'm not sure that is what DD thinks though. Either he's blowing smoke or he has zero clue. Last time he said this and we had reports the next day they were in on a bunch of guys, including Kimbrel. I'm ok with an Allen, if you add a second guy for insurance. I'm not ok with nothing and I don't buy for one second he adds no one. Which is why I think this might be him blowing smoke and big expenditure could be in refrence to a massive contract. Otherwise why have they been waiting on Kimbrel? Not really. He's been pretty consistent. I think I read or heard that Alex Speier had talked to Dombrowski and he meant big expenditure to be multiple years or a one year high $ value - that would be Kimbrel. I believe him when he says he doesn't know if he will or won't add a guy. Will he add a Greg Holland or a Brad Brach? He doesn't know. He'll have to see how it plays out. If what's left isn't that appealing he'll stick with Barnes, Brasier, Wright, Hembree and Workman as his five main guys in the pen. As far as the reports regarding Kimbrel going to the Red Sox, they're probably wrong. Wouldn't be the first time reports were wrong. It's pretty obvious the Red Sox want to get under the luxury tax for 2020 and that spending money on the bullpen prevents them from trying to bring back who'd they prioritize bringing back while staying under the luxury tax for 2020. If you sign Kimbrel for 3 years $50 million for example, that's almost $17 million you're stuck with for 2020 when trying to get under the limit while you try to sign Sale and Bogaerts and bring back Martinez should he opt out. I doubt the Sox put themselves on the books for a big amount. They figured they could add one big salary while factoring in a big bump for Betts. They chose to give the money to Eovaldi over Kimbrel. Given what's in their farm system - a lot of relief pitching and no front line starting pitching, it makes a ton of sense.
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Post by sparkygian on Jan 18, 2019 1:46:14 GMT -5
All I know is in pro sports if you’re not getting better, you’re getting worse. So far at least no indication this pen is better - in either depth or ability - than it was last year. for last three years perhaps Last time I truly felt comfortable with the Sox pen was when Uehara was peaking for a couple of years. Kimbrel, even in his career year of 2017, just seemed to fade by the time the playoffs started. If the Sox were rebuilding, it would probably make more sense that they would be willing to basically do a total revamping of the bullpen, but 2019 has supposedly been the Sox' year to repeat, and so DD made sure to keep the core intact by resigning Eovaldi, and Pearce. Totally revamping the bullpen and experimenting doesn't seem to make sense, but it's hard to criticize DD right now, and maybe Cora is feeling confident with what the Sox have right now. I believe in Cora..........the bullpen doesn't make sense right now, but if Cora feels good about the bullpen right now, I gotta believe in him after proving himself last year. Personally, I would think that DD has been talking to Cora about these decisions this offseason -- and maybe not.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 18, 2019 3:02:49 GMT -5
Kimbrel drives me absolutely nuts, but I sure hope they sign him now with Cody Allen off the board.
Tony Watson and Pat Neshek are the two best trade options.
Justin Wilson is probably the best option left on the free agent market (beyond Kimbrel) and he has had a walk rate of over 5 the last two years. That's really bad. He also had a hard time getting RHB's out last year. That wouldn't suit the Red Sox well in a division where Stanton, Gary Sanchez, Andujar, Judge, Torres, and Vlad. Guerrero Jr are all in the same division (all right handed sluggers).
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 18, 2019 6:15:26 GMT -5
He's all over the place, no big expenditures, whatever that means. We like our guys. Yet we do have some room as in money to spend. Ends it by not sure if they will or won't add a guy. Unless you know what DD means by big expenditure you really have no clue what he's saying. I know you think that means a one year small contract. I'm not sure that is what DD thinks though. Either he's blowing smoke or he has zero clue. Last time he said this and we had reports the next day they were in on a bunch of guys, including Kimbrel. I'm ok with an Allen, if you add a second guy for insurance. I'm not ok with nothing and I don't buy for one second he adds no one. Which is why I think this might be him blowing smoke and big expenditure could be in refrence to a massive contract. Otherwise why have they been waiting on Kimbrel? Not really. He's been pretty consistent. I think I read or heard that Alex Speier had talked to Dombrowski and he meant big expenditure to be multiple years or a one year high $ value - that would be Kimbrel. I believe him when he says he doesn't know if he will or won't add a guy. Will he add a Greg Holland or a Brad Brach? He doesn't know. He'll have to see how it plays out. If what's left isn't that appealing he'll stick with Barnes, Brasier, Wright, Hembree and Workman as his five main guys in the pen. As far as the reports regarding Kimbrel going to the Red Sox, they're probably wrong. Wouldn't be the first time reports were wrong. It's pretty obvious the Red Sox want to get under the luxury tax for 2020 and that spending money on the bullpen prevents them from trying to bring back who'd they prioritize bringing back while staying under the luxury tax for 2020. If you sign Kimbrel for 3 years $50 million for example, that's almost $17 million you're stuck with for 2020 when trying to get under the limit while you try to sign Sale and Bogaerts and bring back Martinez should he opt out. I doubt the Sox put themselves on the books for a big amount. They figured they could add one big salary while factoring in a big bump for Betts. They chose to give the money to Eovaldi over Kimbrel. Given what's in their farm system - a lot of relief pitching and no front line starting pitching, it makes a ton of sense. I'd love to see that if you have a link. Here's where if I buy your interpretation things don't make sense. They offered Kelly two years. So they were more than happy to spend money next year. So I just don't get they won't go multiple years at least at a certain price point. Also the reports about Kimbrel came from other pitchers free agents camps that the Red Sox told them they were waiting on Kimbrel. Yea a ton of crap is made up this time of year. Yet multiple camps with the same story? Maybe DD changed his mind, maybe it was nothing, maybe he was lying and trying to use it to get better deals on other players. Given the way it was reported and from multiple sources. I buy the rumor. I just don't see multiple camps leaking false information that decreases their players leverage. Unless Kimbrel's camp is getting sports reporters to lie. Even if you 100% buy they have to reset next year and truly don't want to go over the top tax line adding no one makes zero sense! You can make trades, you could have not signed Pearce, you could trade players to free up money. I just don't buy for one second we won't add anyone. The fact that DD says that makes me question everything he says. It makes zero sense. Especially when they are saying they aren't expecting any rookies to be a big factor. You want to move on from Kimbrel ok. You don't punt two of your top four relievers, from a bullpen that was rather poor at times last year and add no one. You don't build a superteam and just forget the bullpen.
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Post by soxcentral on Jan 18, 2019 8:39:15 GMT -5
I really don't get the claims our bullpen is awful right now, or even that they must have 2 more signings.
8th/9th Candidates Barnes Braiser Wright
The last time we saw each pitch, Wright in September and Barnes/Braiser in Oct, they were all lights out. Yeah their track records might not be lengthy, but that's 3 arms already that finished the year as well as anyone in the game.
6th/7th & Piggyback starters Thornburg Hembree Workman Johnson --------- Brewer Putnam Poyner Velasquez C Smith Lakins Taylor
Yeah there's some potential depth issues there, but if you do end up with Kimbrel back or add a decent 8th/9th inning candidate either as a FA or through trade, this pen has 3-4 proven back end guys and a lot of candidates to mix and match as we look for another arm to emerge in the first few months.
It's not our strongest area on paper, but it's far from a disaster.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 18, 2019 9:05:21 GMT -5
"Thornburg Hembree Workman Johnson Brewer Putnam Poyner C Smith"
I can say with almost all certainty that Hembree and Johnson are making the team out of this group leaving spring training. That's about it though.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 18, 2019 9:07:02 GMT -5
I really don't get the claims our bullpen is awful right now, or even that they must have 2 more signings. 8th/9th Candidates
Barnes Braiser Wright The last time we saw each pitch, Wright in September and Barnes/Braiser in Oct, they were all lights out. Yeah their track records might not be lengthy, but that's 3 arms already that finished the year as well as anyone in the game. 6th/7th & Piggyback startersThornburg Hembree Workman Johnson --------- Brewer Putnam Poyner Velasquez C Smith Lakins Taylor Yeah there's some potential depth issues there, but if you do end up with Kimbrel back or add a decent 8th/9th inning candidate either as a FA or through trade, this pen has 3-4 proven back end guys and a lot of candidates to mix and match as we look for another arm to emerge in the first few months. It's not our strongest area on paper, but it's far from a disaster. There are people who still believe that we need closers at every spot in the bullpen and will start bitching the first time a run is allowed. They still think we needed to make 2-3 trades at the deadline last season as well. The Yankees bullpen model is the only one that works. You can tell because they won championships for the last 3 seasons.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 18, 2019 9:08:15 GMT -5
Yeah I mean a middle ground between spending $100M on a superbullpen and "maybe Steven Wright can be the Red Sox third-best reliever!" would be swell.
And... maybe Steven Wright has a very good year and is a good team's third-best reliever. It's not a good plan, though. And it probably isn't the plan.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 18, 2019 9:12:12 GMT -5
I really don't get the claims our bullpen is awful right now, or even that they must have 2 more signings. 8th/9th Candidates
Barnes Braiser Wright The last time we saw each pitch, Wright in September and Barnes/Braiser in Oct, they were all lights out. Yeah their track records might not be lengthy, but that's 3 arms already that finished the year as well as anyone in the game. 6th/7th & Piggyback startersThornburg Hembree Workman Johnson --------- Brewer Putnam Poyner Velasquez C Smith Lakins Taylor Yeah there's some potential depth issues there, but if you do end up with Kimbrel back or add a decent 8th/9th inning candidate either as a FA or through trade, this pen has 3-4 proven back end guys and a lot of candidates to mix and match as we look for another arm to emerge in the first few months. It's not our strongest area on paper, but it's far from a disaster. There are people who still believe that we need closers at every spot in the bullpen and will start bitching the first time a run is allowed. They still think we needed to make 2-3 trades at the deadline last season as well. The Yankees bullpen model is the only one that works. You can tell because they won championships for the last 3 seasons. Just one high leverage arm would be a nice start. That's what most were realistically expecting, TBH. Now the Sox might be looking like a team that won't get one.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 18, 2019 9:12:58 GMT -5
There are people who still believe that we need closers at every spot in the bullpen and will start bitching the first time a run is allowed. They still think we needed to make 2-3 trades at the deadline last season as well. The Yankees bullpen model is the only one that works. You can tell because they won championships for the last 3 seasons. Just one high leverage arm would be a nice start. That's what most were realistically expecting, TBH. Now the Sox might be looking like a team that won't get one. I'm sure the board won't be insufferable if they don't.
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Post by soxcentral on Jan 18, 2019 9:23:09 GMT -5
Yeah I mean a middle ground between spending $100M on a superbullpen and "maybe Steven Wright can be the Red Sox third-best reliever!" would be swell. And... maybe Steven Wright has a very good year and is a good team's third-best reliever. It's not a good plan, though. And it probably isn't the plan. I do expect them to bring in 1 more arm, just not 2. So yeah, what you said. If he is healthy, though, why wouldn't Wright be a top 3-4 reliever for us? He clearly took to the role in the pen last year as probably our best reliever once he was moved, and with DD mentioning him as a closer candidate I'm assuming health reports on him are positive. I'd be fine with him as an 8th inning guy who could stay on to finish the 9th when matchups are favorable.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 18, 2019 9:24:42 GMT -5
Just one high leverage arm would be a nice start. That's what most were realistically expecting, TBH. Now the Sox might be looking like a team that won't get one. I'm sure the board won't be insufferable if they don't. I already personally liked the off-season because of the Eovaldi resigning, but there is a good point to be made that this team will be relying on a good amount of their bullpen because of the innings limit restrictions to the rotation following the world series from last year. The team might be relying on the weakest part of the team in April and that could be a problem, especially considering the group Soxcentral just rattled off. There's a good chance not even half those arms are good enough on a second division team, nevermind a championship contender. I don't know, I seriously hope Lakins gets a hard look in spring training and I'm seriously hoping Brewer pans out. Between him and Lakins, those were the only 2 arms that has high velocity and might miss a good amount of bats with swings and misses. I mean, Workman? Putnam? Carson Smith and Stephen Wright who both are injured or not injured? Thornburg? Are these any arms you really feel any good about with any certainty? We will see what it looks like in Spring Training, but the bullpen does deserve the criticism.
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Post by soxcentral on Jan 18, 2019 9:29:22 GMT -5
I'm sure the board won't be insufferable if they don't. I already personally liked ths off-season because of the Eovaldi resigning, but there is a good point to be made that this team will be relying on a good amount of their bullpen because of the innings limit restrictions to the rotation following the world series from last year. The team might be relying on the weakest part of the team in April and that could be a problem, especially considering the group Soxcentral just rattled off. There's a good chance not even half those arms are good enough on a second division team, nevermind a championship contender. I don't know, I seriously hope Lakins gets a hard look and I'm seriously hoping Brewer pans out. Between him and Lakins, those were the only 2 arms that has high velocity and might miss a good amount of bats with swings and misses. I mean, Workman? Putnum? Carson Smith and Stephen Wrighf who both are injured or not injured? Thornburg? Are these any arms to really feel any good about? We will see what it looks like in Spring Training, but the bullpen does deserve the criticism. Well for one I don't think you're accounting for the trade option, you seem to just be looking at FA's. With relievers coming off the board now it may open up the trade market in the next couple weeks. Second, I listed all those names knowing some will work out and others won't. We aren't going to carry 14 relievers! At this point, with their recent track record of success in identifying useful pitchers, I'm fine with giving a few months to let them sort out which gambles appear to be working, and which aren't. You only need 1-2 to hit from that bottom group.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Jan 18, 2019 9:38:54 GMT -5
I already personally liked ths off-season because of the Eovaldi resigning, but there is a good point to be made that this team will be relying on a good amount of their bullpen because of the innings limit restrictions to the rotation following the world series from last year. The team might be relying on the weakest part of the team in April and that could be a problem, especially considering the group Soxcentral just rattled off. There's a good chance not even half those arms are good enough on a second division team, nevermind a championship contender. I don't know, I seriously hope Lakins gets a hard look and I'm seriously hoping Brewer pans out. Between him and Lakins, those were the only 2 arms that has high velocity and might miss a good amount of bats with swings and misses. I mean, Workman? Putnum? Carson Smith and Stephen Wrighf who both are injured or not injured? Thornburg? Are these any arms to really feel any good about? We will see what it looks like in Spring Training, but the bullpen does deserve the criticism. Well for one I don't think you're accounting for the trade option, you seem to just be looking at FA's. With relievers coming off the board now it may open up the trade market in the next couple weeks. Second, I listed all those names knowing some will work out and others won't. We aren't going to carry 14 relievers! At this point, with their recent track record of success in identifying useful pitchers, I'm fine with giving a few months to let them sort out which gambles appear to be working, and which aren't. You only need 1-2 to hit from that bottom group. I think there's a chance none of the arms from the Wright, Smith, Thornburg, Putnam, and Workman group don't pan out much, if at all. Some due to durability, some due to ineffectiveness. You can put Brewer in this group, but at least he has the actual stuff that plays. I've looked at the trade market right now. You got Will Smith, Tony Watson, and Pat Neshek. Neshek might be the only guy that doesn't cost much in terms of prospects. The basic point is, the questions far outweigh any certainty whatsoever and if you're taking out Craig Kimbrel, who's seemingly the last *good* option off the table. It might be a bumpy first 2 months of the season. Maybe at that point Feltman might be available to come up.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 18, 2019 9:47:50 GMT -5
If he is healthy, though, why wouldn't Wright be a top 3-4 reliever for us? The "if" part of that clause. Wright is someone who belongs in the bullpen and maybe ends up in a high-leverage role, but not someone who I would be comfortable being part of The Plan TM. I just don't see why anyone would be confident that he's healthy for most of the season. Especially since his injuries aren't arm fatigue, which might be something that would be helped by limiting his innings in a relief role.
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Post by MLBDreams on Jan 18, 2019 14:01:52 GMT -5
Last time the Red Sox decided not give money to Jon Papelbon (end up with Phillies), it was disaster bullpen by committee (no true closer) during all season in 2012 which resulted them as last place finisher in ALE standings. It's blessed that they found Koji Uehara in magic 2013 as WS championship closer. But I'm not lying about this year situation despite they retained most positional players & starter pitchers except the bullpen staffs. I didn't like the owners & DD decision by not signing available bullpen guys for help. The Yankees are into incredible bargain by getting cheap & reasonable players at their "price".
DD is likely to ask positional players to build up lead by large margin in every winnable games and not worry about using weak bullpen staffs for 6-7-8-9 innings situation. He might force to give up prospects for obtaining other team's good bullpen guys for help. That's what many of you hate for that situation if their current weak bullpen staffs are failing by doing their job like season 2012 bullpen guys did. Matt Barnes and/or Ryan Braiser are not sure thing for ease the job as "closer". They're prone to be wild pitchers (I've seen enough of them) and not 100% light out 1-2-3 outs closer.
For me, it's really BS from them as confident for forward this season without true closer and weak bullpen staffs being effective. It's hard to repeat back to back WS winner unless Craig Kimbrel change his heart and stay in for one more year.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 18, 2019 14:42:03 GMT -5
The Red Sox traded for Andrew Bailey before the 2012 season.
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