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Top 5 Worst Sox NON resignings
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Post by djsilva on Dec 23, 2018 16:50:52 GMT -5
With a lot of discussion about upcoming free agents (Xander, Mookie, JBJ, etc), who do you think were the top 5 Players the Red Sox should have signed instead of letting go? For criteria, let’s say they Must have played in Boston for at least 4 years and had to have made it to free agency. Signing somewhere else was tough to watch them play in another uniform, but also still had good years left in them. Trades do not count. Here are mine: 1. Roger Clemens 2. Carlton Fisk 3. Wade Boggs 4. Jon Lester (although he was traded, should have been resigned at end of year. 5. Ellis Burks (would have been great to see him play from 87-04 in Fenway)
Honorable mention: Papelbon, Derek Lowe & Ellsbury (for some reason, I think he would have played better in Boston if he stayed)
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Dec 23, 2018 16:54:53 GMT -5
Beltré.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 23, 2018 17:15:21 GMT -5
Clemens would have been a lot easier if they knew he was going full steroid. You have to remember that he was 34 when he left.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 23, 2018 17:18:30 GMT -5
With a lot of discussion about upcoming free agents (Xander, Mookie, JBJ, etc), who do you think were the top 5 Players the Red Sox should have signed instead of letting go? For criteria, let’s say they Must have played in Boston for at least 4 years and had to have made it to free agency. Signing somewhere else was tough to watch them play in another uniform, but also still had good years left in them. Trades do not count. Here are mine: 1. Roger Clemens 2. Carlton Fisk 3. Wade Boggs 4. Jon Lester (although he was traded, should have been resigned at end of year. 5. Ellis Burks (would have been great to see him play from 87-04 in Fenway) Honorable mention: Papelbon, Derek Lowe & Ellsbury (for some reason, I think he would have played better in Boston if he stayed) I like your list. I like TopTen even better to include Ells, Pap, Lowe you mentioned plus Damon and
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 23, 2018 17:26:22 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on Dec 23, 2018 18:16:11 GMT -5
No We got JBJ with one of those picks. Without him we don’t win this year.
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Post by terriblehondo on Dec 23, 2018 18:25:25 GMT -5
No We got JBJ with one of those picks. Without him we don’t win this year. No if you had kept Beltre you could have traded him for JBJ and handful of players 2 years down the road. Beltre was an absolute Stud.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 23, 2018 19:21:03 GMT -5
No We got JBJ with one of those picks. Without him we don’t win this year. No if you had kept Beltre you could have traded him for JBJ and handful of players 2 years down the road. Beltre was an absolute Stud. I think they still draft JBJ regardless. Hopefully if the Sox had a gun to their head and had to pick between Henry Owens and JBJ, they make the right decision here with JBJ.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 23, 2018 19:48:31 GMT -5
With a lot of discussion about upcoming free agents (Xander, Mookie, JBJ, etc), who do you think were the top 5 Players the Red Sox should have signed instead of letting go? For criteria, let’s say they Must have played in Boston for at least 4 years and had to have made it to free agency. Signing somewhere else was tough to watch them play in another uniform, but also still had good years left in them. Trades do not count. Here are mine: 1. Roger Clemens 2. Carlton Fisk 3. Wade Boggs 4. Jon Lester (although he was traded, should have been resigned at end of year. 5. Ellis Burks (would have been great to see him play from 87-04 in Fenway) Honorable mention: Papelbon, Derek Lowe & Ellsbury (for some reason, I think he would have played better in Boston if he stayed) I like your list. I like TopTen even better to include Ells, Pap, Lowe you mentioned plus Damon and Ellsbury leaving was a gift. Damon certainly is on the top 5 list for me. Pedro was a bordeline top 5 for me too. You replaced him with Matt Clement, who was one of the worst signings in the Theo era. Pedro doubled Matt Clements bWAR in 2005. Pedro told everyone that the Sox offered him 2 years up until the last minute, when they finally offered 3 years. By the time the Sox came with the 3 years, Pedro had accepted the Mets offer of 4 years. He would have came back on a 3 year deal if the Sox didn't haggle with Pedro. The Sox should have picked one of Lowe or Pedro instead of Matt Clement back in the day imo. If you wanted to cheap out and sign David Wells beyond that, fine.
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Smittyw
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Post by Smittyw on Dec 23, 2018 20:33:02 GMT -5
Not top five, but besides all of those that have been mentioned, how about Rich Hill?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 23, 2018 20:54:50 GMT -5
Not top five, but besides all of those that have been mentioned, how about Rich Hill? Hill was pretty bad. Of any team, the Red Sox should have known what he was.
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Post by azblue on Dec 23, 2018 21:28:59 GMT -5
Fred Lynn should be on this list. He could play a little. Of course, Lynn, Carlton Fisk and Rick Burleson were free agents because incompetent Haywood Sullivan failed to tender contract renewals to them in a timely manner. Although it is not mentioned in the story linked below, I recall allegations that Sullivan attempted to conceal the by back-dating the postage meter. He was caught and the three became free agents. Link to story about failure to tender contracts
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Post by soxfansince67 on Dec 23, 2018 21:45:03 GMT -5
Rick Burleson (showing my age, I know - a favorite player of mine!)
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 23, 2018 22:21:38 GMT -5
Wasn't Ellis Burks non-tendered? That was pretty bad. I'd probably put that as #1, considering they could've just tendered him a contract and let him go to free agency a year later. He'd have been healthy, and either gotten resigned, or brough back a pretty nice pair of compensation picks. The White Sox ended up netting picks #33 and #41.
Advanced stats (and even not-particularly-advanced stats, like ERA and strikeouts) show that Clemens was really, really good from 1994 to 1996, but people still paid attention to pitcher wins then and they showed him to be mediocre. He got good money from the Blue Jays, but not insane.
What in the world are Papelbon and Ellsbury doing on this list? Letting Ellsbury walk, especially considering the money involved, was one of the smartest moves a Red Sox GM has made. The Red Sox probably don't win in 2013 if Papelbon is entrenched as closer, blowing saves in games that Uehara nailed down.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 23, 2018 23:00:03 GMT -5
Fred Lynn should be on this list. He could play a little. Of course, Lynn, Carlton Fisk and Rick Burleson were free agents because incompetent Haywood Sullivan failed to tender contract renewals to them in a timely manner. Although it is not mentioned in the story linked below, I recall allegations that Sullivan attempted to conceal the by back-dating the postage meter. He was caught and the three became free agents. Link to story about failure to tender contractsWasn't Lynn technically traded instead of leaving as a free agent? If I recall he went to California along with Steve Renko for Frank Tanana, Joe Rudi and minor leaguer Jim Dorsey. Obviously they weren't too keen on re-signing Lynn and made the deal to get something for him, although it wasn't much as Tanana didn't become an effective pitcher again until after he left Boston and made the conversion to soft tosser. At least the Sox got more for Burleson and Hobson. They got Carney Lansford, Mark Clear, and Rick Miller. That was a much better haul. Actually it was a pretty decent deal for the Sox. But of course they lost Fisk as a free agent that year so nobody really cared about the above.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 23, 2018 23:03:57 GMT -5
Bruce Hurst should be on this list. He was a solid pitcher for the Padres for a number of years after leaving Boston. He regretted leaving and the Sox should never have let him go.
Losing Mike Boddicker hurt but that's because the Sox threw a bunch of money at Danny Darwin and worse Matt Young, who was an atrocious pitcher to watch. The guy couldn't even win his game he threw a no-hitter. He had awful control and could not throw to 1b - had the yips.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Dec 23, 2018 23:10:13 GMT -5
Another I just remembered - Cecil Cooper - career took off after leaving Boston
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 23, 2018 23:31:41 GMT -5
Bruce Hurst should be on this list. He was a solid pitcher for the Padres for a number of years after leaving Boston. He regretted leaving and the Sox should never have let him go. Losing Mike Boddicker hurt but that's because the Sox threw a bunch of money at Danny Darwin and worse Matt Young, who was an atrocious pitcher to watch. The guy couldn't even win his game he threw a no-hitter. He had awful control and could not throw to 1b - had the yips. Wait, huh? Darwin was much better for Boston than Boddicker was with the Roayls. Darwin was outstanding in 1993--when the Royals basically just traded Boddicker to Milwaukee for cash.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 24, 2018 0:04:27 GMT -5
Bruce Hurst should be on this list. He was a solid pitcher for the Padres for a number of years after leaving Boston. He regretted leaving and the Sox should never have let him go. Losing Mike Boddicker hurt but that's because the Sox threw a bunch of money at Danny Darwin and worse Matt Young, who was an atrocious pitcher to watch. The guy couldn't even win his game he threw a no-hitter. He had awful control and could not throw to 1b - had the yips. Wait, huh? Darwin was much better for Boston than Boddicker was with the Roayls. Darwin was outstanding in 1993--when the Royals basically just traded Boddicker to Milwaukee for cash. Yeah, I kind of cheated. Darwin had one ok year and one good year and wasn't so good the other two. At the time he was making big bucks. Hell my beef wasn't with him. I figured that the Sox lost Boddicker and to replace him they got two starters - Darwin and Young and Young was so brutal that it made not re-signing Mike Boddicker hurt. So losing Mike Boddicker in of itself didn't turn out as awful as I thought it would, but using that as a reason to throw money at Darwin and worse Matt Young...well James, I don't know if you ever watched Matt Young pitch, but it was brutal - trust me on that. He was the kind of pitcher that when he came into the game, you really wanted to find something else to do with your time. The numbers didn't do justice to just how bad he truly was. He was up there in my least top 10 of players to watch. The whole Darwin/Young thing was a reaction to losing Boddicker and logically you can say, well you could say Darwin was just as good as Boddicker if not better and you don't need to staple Young to the situation, but my twisted pretzel logic always put those two starters together as if they were trying to make up for losing Boddicker. In my opinion they didn't make up for losing him until they signed Frank Viola a year later, but by then the rest of the team was horrendous and they have a really awful new manager. I still stand by my inclusion of Hurst on that list. Perhaps if they had Hurst the Sox might have finished ahead of Toronto in 1989 and maybe they could have stolen a game from Oakland in the 1990 playoffs and perhaps the Sox might have even won in 1991. He was a big and unnecessary free agent loss.
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Post by djsilva on Dec 24, 2018 0:18:38 GMT -5
Beltre was great and definitely could have changed how the team was constructed in 2011. Re-sign Beltre, keep Youk at 1st. Then they don’t trade for Gonzalez. Maybe keep Victor Martinez behind the plate instead of Saltalamacchia the next few years (although he moved to DH for Detroit). Then we still have Anthony Rizzo for future. Maybe those moves persuade them not to sign Crawford (baseball gods willing). More luck for ‘11 & ‘12? But, although a great player and I would have loved him in Boston a few years, he only played here for 1 year. Not in the original question of playing at least 4 years in Boston.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 24, 2018 0:24:59 GMT -5
Bruce Hurst should be on this list. He was a solid pitcher for the Padres for a number of years after leaving Boston. He regretted leaving and the Sox should never have let him go. Losing Mike Boddicker hurt but that's because the Sox threw a bunch of money at Danny Darwin and worse Matt Young, who was an atrocious pitcher to watch. The guy couldn't even win his game he threw a no-hitter. He had awful control and could not throw to 1b - had the yips. Yes, yes. He wanted to leave and go West, but realized in SD that despite the amazing weather (or because of it), people didn’t care to go to the ballpark.
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Post by djsilva on Dec 24, 2018 0:34:21 GMT -5
Not top five, but besides all of those that have been mentioned, how about Rich Hill? Ellsbury not resigning has definitely been a gift. Like I said, I just feel like he would have been a better player had he stayed in Boston. I just do, I could be very wrong,so it could be a terrible opinion. I really loved him when he was here. Just like i feel if Fred Lynn stayed in Boston, he would be in Hall of Fame today having a better career (again, just my opinion). Pedro doesn’t make my list because he had 1 good year left in him after he left. If they got him on a 2 yr or even a 3 yr, I would have been very happy with that too. 2005 (and 2006) could have repeated if they kept Pedro and Lowe instead of replacing them with Clement and Wells. Lowe still had a few good years left in him as well. But you don’t look at the Pedro deal and say wow, what could have been in 2006-2009...
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Post by telson13 on Dec 24, 2018 0:35:53 GMT -5
Releasing Dewey was really an outstandingly douchey move. The Sox should’ve worked with him to end his career here. He was still reasonably productive, with a terrific OBP, in his last season. A 122 wRC+ is pretty good. Power was pretty much gone (0.100 iso basically), but it’s tough to gripe about a .270 BA with a *16.4%* BB rate (same as his K rate), and a **0.393** OBP. Having him wasn’t going to get them to the playoffs or anything, but his production, leadership, and the story of him finishing his whole career in Boston might’ve helped them at least make a little more of a run, and brought some joy to a remarkably joyless (for a second-place finish) year.
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Post by djsilva on Dec 24, 2018 0:38:12 GMT -5
I like your list. I like TopTen even better to include Ells, Pap, Lowe you mentioned plus Damon and Ellsbury leaving was a gift. Damon certainly is on the top 5 list for me. Pedro was a bordeline top 5 for me too. You replaced him with Matt Clement, who was one of the worst signings in the Theo era. Pedro doubled Matt Clements bWAR in 2005. Pedro told everyone that the Sox offered him 2 years up until the last minute, when they finally offered 3 years. By the time the Sox came with the 3 years, Pedro had accepted the Mets offer of 4 years. He would have came back on a 3 year deal if the Sox didn't haggle with Pedro. The Sox should have picked one of Lowe or Pedro instead of Matt Clement back in the day imo. If you wanted to cheap out and sign David Wells beyond that, fine. Ellsbury not resigning has definitely been a gift. Like I said, I just feel like he would have been a better player had he stayed in Boston. I just do, I could be very wrong,so it could be a terrible opinion. I really loved him when he was here. Just like i feel if Fred Lynn stayed in Boston, he would be in Hall of Fame today having a better career (again, just my opinion). Pedro doesn’t make my list because he had 1 good year left in him after he left. If they got him on a 2 yr or even a 3 yr, I would have been very happy with that too. 2005 (and 2006) could have repeated if they kept Pedro and Lowe instead of replacing them with Clement and Wells. Lowe still had a few good years left in him as well. But you don’t look at the Pedro deal and say wow, what could have been in 2006-2009...
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Post by telson13 on Dec 24, 2018 0:44:36 GMT -5
Not top five, but besides all of those that have been mentioned, how about Rich Hill? Ellsbury not resigning has definitely been a gift. Like I said, I just feel like he would have been a better player had he stayed in Boston. I just do, I could be very wrong,so it could be a terrible opinion. I really loved him when he was here. Just like i feel if Fred Lynn stayed in Boston, he would be in Hall of Fame today having a better career (again, just my opinion). Pedro doesn’t make my list because he had 1 good year left in him after he left. If they got him on a 2 yr or even a 3 yr, I would have been very happy with that too. 2005 (and 2006) could have repeated if they kept Pedro and Lowe instead of replacing them with Clement and Wells. Lowe still had a few good years left in him as well. But you don’t look at the Pedro deal and say wow, what could have been in 2006-2009... I wish they’d signed Pedro right off on a 3-year, and transitioned him to the bullpen as a closer to end his career here, for as long as he was effective. I think that after his first year with the Mets (which was excellent as far as his post-shoulder injury years go) his body was just no longer up to the rigors of starting. But I genuinely believe that he could’ve been convinced to go to relief, if it was a high-profile “challenge,” a la Smoltz’s or Eck’s transformations. Of course, there’s the latter-years issue of his problems in the first inning, so it might not’ve been viable. But I think it was worth that 2005 year and maybe 2006 goes a little differently too. Just seems such a shame he didn’t end his career in Boston, and I really think he’d have made a difference, in ‘05 at the least, and very possibly beyond.
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