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Top 5 Worst Sox NON resignings
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Post by flabosox on Dec 25, 2018 14:56:15 GMT -5
Andrew Miller was another major non-re-sign miss. Similar to Lester's situation. Had a chance to re-sign him after getting E Rod for him. Cherington decided to give 40 year old Koji Uehara a two year contract instead of signing Miller for 4 years.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 25, 2018 16:36:35 GMT -5
Andrew Miller was another major non-re-sign miss. Similar to Lester's situation. Had a chance to re-sign him after getting E Rod for him. Cherington decided to give 40 year old Koji Uehara a two year contract instead of signing Miller for 4 years. It wasn't the Koji signing that hurt the Sox. It was Pablo Sandoval. Welcome to the board. |
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Post by michael on Dec 25, 2018 21:00:03 GMT -5
Perhaps in my dotage I've missed the name of Luis Clemente Tiant Vega. I realize that he didn't set the league on ire after "being traded" to the FNYY for Mike.Torres but he was at the timeuch the soul of the Sox. His loss was definitely subtraction by subtraction.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 25, 2018 21:09:34 GMT -5
Perhaps in my dotage I've missed the name of Luis Clemente Tiant Vega. I realize that he didn't set the league on ire after "being traded" to the FNYY for Mike.Torres but he was at the timeuch the soul of the Sox. His loss was definitely subtraction by subtraction. Yeah. Yaz said that the loss of Luis Tiant ripped the heart out of the Red Sox. Steinbrenner knew it. That's why he signed him. You put being traded in quotes so I assume you know they weren't technically dealt for each other as Torrez signed with the Sox after being on the mound and recording the last out of the 1977 World Series for the Yankees before coming to the Red Sox in 1978 where he was teammates with Luis Tiant who was not the only loss after the 1978 season. The Sox stupidly traded Fergie Jenkins after the 1977 season, let Reggie Cleveland go for nothing, traded away Bernie Carbo for nothing during the 1978 season and traded Bill Lee for Stan Papi after the 1978. Of course all of this was Haywood Sullivan and Don Zimmer's handiwork, getting rid of guys they clashed with. |
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Post by michael on Dec 25, 2018 21:20:42 GMT -5
Yes I'm aware. I have no italics skills so chose to use the
"Traded for.". Luis did in the locker room and dugout for the Sox what Papi did. He could divert the heat from someone else as well as go out every 5th day and give you 135 plus pitches if needed.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Dec 26, 2018 2:57:40 GMT -5
Most all the above mentioned blunders are Haywood Sullivan ones.. Jenkins, Cleveland, El Tiante.. sullivan was a really nice guy, but when he bought the team (along with mrs Yawkey and Buddy leRoux) he really got pretty cheap and seemed to lose touch with reality. Another thing was year Tiant was allowed to leave, believe year before he had just signed away Mike Torrez from NY, so Georgie might have thought revenge was in order.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Dec 26, 2018 3:05:06 GMT -5
Yes, yes. He wanted to leave and go West, but realized in SD that despite the amazing weather (or because of it), people didn’t care to go to the ballpark. I was lucky enough to meet Bruce Hurst and he said he did regret leaving Boston. Wished he hadn't. Bruce Hurst was one of the nicest kids Ever met that Boston ever had in the organization and the best with names even years later. His religious beliefs were genuine. I cannot say how many chats had with him both at Winter haven when he played there, then there again when he was back there for ST about most any topic. The guy was most friendly with people he had known, then heard later on after he got to Boston he didn't like giving interviews with reporters. |
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Post by borisman on Dec 26, 2018 8:04:45 GMT -5
Babe Ruth was sold but yeah, Babe Ruth. Maybe we should have gotten a couple of prospects as well. Anyone know who top prospects were for the Yankees? Maybe we should have gotten a PTBNL, like Gehrig.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 26, 2018 23:47:43 GMT -5
FWIW, Burks was a huge disappointment for me. I thought that one was just flat-out stupidly short-sighted. He was extremely talented, and he was still young. They put WAY too much stock in his injuries and not enough in his skills and character. I mean, he was basically a 4-WAR player (per 650 PA; he did have minor nagging injuries but threw up a 5.2-fWAR year as a *sophomore*) who had one down year at 26 (‘91) and then injuries at 27 (‘92). He was in his prime...just a silly time to give up on a talent like that. Those were some dark years as a Sox fan, for me. First Hurst (who I just LOVED after the ‘86 playoffs, and who was very good for all four years in SD, when the Sox needed him most...consummate #2 starter), then Dewey, then Burks, Boggs...signing Matt Young...lots of poor personnel choices. They gave up on too many guys and picked a lot of bad fits (Carl Everett?) and past-prime (Frank Viola...solid but never what he’d been) or never prime guys. I think their assessment of MLB talent (not to mention the value of homegrown players to fans) back then was quite poor. One last one that really bothered me: Mo Vaughn. Despite the partying issues, he always seemed like a leader (kind of Big Papi V 1.0), and he was an absolutely terrific hitter in Fenway. I think those two years in Anaheim would’ve looked much better in Fenway, where his oppo ability shone. And he never would’ve had that ankle injury that ended his career. Keeping him alongside Pedro and Nomar might’ve completely changed the tone, and success, of the late-90s/early 2000s teams. Daubach was a nice surprise but never close at all to replacing Mo. I’m convinced Vaughn woukdve has several more 4-6 WAR seasons if he’d stayed, and the Sox offense would’ve even completely different. Probably would’ve taken the limelight off Nomar, too, who really hated it. Geez, Mo Vaughn. It's like he's kind of the forgotten man, but man, he was a really good player and it sucked when he left. Brian Daubach did the best he could to come out of nowhere and Pedro and Nomar elevated their game, but they missed Mo Vaughn. Then he eventually got hurt and was kind of forgotten about, but in the 90s he was one of the reasons you went to a game at Fenway. He could hit. He and Jimmie Foxx were the best 1b the Sox ever had. You hit the nail on the head about why letting Vaughn go bothers me so much: he IS the forgotten man. And he never should’ve become that. He was a *fantastic* hitter, at least in Fenway. He tailored his approach to that park, and he was an absolute beast. It’s just WAY too easy to forget his Sox tenure. For five straight years, he hit .300 or better with OBPs over .400 except for one .388, and he kept his IsoP over .250 except for one .245. He was underrated defensively (he wasn’t “good,” but he could pick it and he could stretch, and I really think he got an undeserved bad rap), and he was absolutely a leader, both byexample and by character. I really believe that if he’d stayed with the Sox, he’d have stayed healthy (the injury was from a dugout step, if I recall correctly) and probably evolved/aged as a hitter the way Papi did. I’m convinced he’d have made a solid HOF case, and it bums me out how easy it is to forget what a force he was, for much of his career. |
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Post by telson13 on Dec 26, 2018 23:53:54 GMT -5
Perhaps in my dotage I've missed the name of Luis Clemente Tiant Vega. I realize that he didn't set the league on ire after "being traded" to the FNYY for Mike.Torres but he was at the timeuch the soul of the Sox. His loss was definitely subtraction by subtraction. Yes. El Tiante was just such an fantastic character...truly larger than life. I have only vague recollections of him, as I was still really young, but...what a guy. |
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 27, 2018 8:14:55 GMT -5
Geez, Mo Vaughn. It's like he's kind of the forgotten man, but man, he was a really good player and it sucked when he left. Brian Daubach did the best he could to come out of nowhere and Pedro and Nomar elevated their game, but they missed Mo Vaughn. Then he eventually got hurt and was kind of forgotten about, but in the 90s he was one of the reasons you went to a game at Fenway. He could hit. He and Jimmie Foxx were the best 1b the Sox ever had. You hit the nail on the head about why letting Vaughn go bothers me so much: he IS the forgotten man. And he never should’ve become that. He was a *fantastic* hitter, at least in Fenway. He tailored his approach to that park, and he was an absolute beast. It’s just WAY too easy to forget his Sox tenure. For five straight years, he hit .300 or better with OBPs over .400 except for one .388, and he kept his IsoP over .250 except for one .245. He was underrated defensively (he wasn’t “good,” but he could pick it and he could stretch, and I really think he got an undeserved bad rap), and he was absolutely a leader, both byexample and by character. I really believe that if he’d stayed with the Sox, he’d have stayed healthy (the injury was from a dugout step, if I recall correctly) and probably evolved/aged as a hitter the way Papi did. I’m convinced he’d have made a solid HOF case, and it bums me out how easy it is to forget what a force he was, for much of his career. Mo Vaughn ended up being a steriod guy. They were all doing it, but I was a bit sad to see big Mo on the list. He was a awesome guy it seemed. I'll never forget his first game back in Fenway as a Angel and he saluted the crowd. Talk about another guy who's swing was built for Fenway. |
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 27, 2018 9:29:32 GMT -5
One thing I'll say is that it's possible to really like a player but know that letting him go turned out to be the right move. Getting overly attached to your own players - even when they are great players and good people - means you end up turning into the late-stage Amaro-era Phillies, with old, overpaid veterans on huge contracts on a depressingly bad and aging team. Letting Vaughn and Ellsbury go were arguably the best moves of the Duquette and Cherington regimes, respectively. Acknowledging that doesn't mean you like and respect their Red Sox contributions any less. But Mo Vaughn's bWAR for the rest of his career after leaving Boston was roughly the same as Craig Kimbrel's was last season. The dugout fall always gets pointed to as a turning point in his career, and maybe it sped the process. But Vaughn's skills just deteriorated quickly because his body broke down, and that was forseeable. THinking he'd have been fine in Boston is the same as thinking Sandoval would've been great if he'd just stayed in San Francisco. A change of scenery and ballpark can have an effect at the margins--maybe it's the difference between Fred Lynn making the Hall of Fame and being simply really good, for example--but it doesn't turn a bad player into an $80M one.
Andrew Miller is a tough one for me. I can see the argument that they should have extended him. But I argued against it at the time, because his mechanics seemed tenuous (he was able to hold them, to his credit), and they got a huge multi-year contributor in exchange for those last two months of his contract. So, while I'd like to have seen Miller do what he did in 2015-17 in a Red Sox uniform, I think I'd do the Eduardo Rodriguez deal again, given the chance. Wanting both is kind of a "eat your cake and have it too" type of wish.
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Post by Smittyw on Dec 27, 2018 9:45:32 GMT -5
Andrew Miller is a tough one for me. I can see the argument that they should have extended him. But I argued against it at the time, because his mechanics seemed tenuous (he was able to hold them, to his credit), and they got a huge multi-year contributor in exchange for those last two months of his contract. So, while I'd like to have seen Miller do what he did in 2015-17 in a Red Sox uniform, I think I'd do the Eduardo Rodriguez deal again, given the chance. Wanting both is kind of a "eat your cake and have it too" type of wish. I think the argument for Miller is that he should have been brought back as a free agent after the season is over (like the Yanks did with Chapman a couple of years back after trading him midseason). I don't really know if there's anyone at this point who thinks the Rodriguez deal shouldn't have happened. |
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Post by johnsilver52 on Dec 27, 2018 17:42:50 GMT -5
Andrew Miller is a tough one for me. I can see the argument that they should have extended him. But I argued against it at the time, because his mechanics seemed tenuous (he was able to hold them, to his credit), and they got a huge multi-year contributor in exchange for those last two months of his contract. So, while I'd like to have seen Miller do what he did in 2015-17 in a Red Sox uniform, I think I'd do the Eduardo Rodriguez deal again, given the chance. Wanting both is kind of a "eat your cake and have it too" type of wish. I think the argument for Miller is that he should have been brought back as a free agent after the season is over (like the Yanks did with Chapman a couple of years back after trading him midseason). I don't really know if there's anyone at this point who thinks the Rodriguez deal shouldn't have happened. Before that Lurker, after 2013 when he broke his I believe it was his left foot the Sox FO was going to take him to arbitration and many of us here wanted them to sign him to a LT extension then. He already had 1 and a half season by then starting to show he had pretty much honed his craft and was developing into a good setup man. I believe he only got a cpl million then, they could have signed him for probably 3/15m at that time. |
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 27, 2018 19:38:37 GMT -5
Imagine if we matched the Yankees for Ellsbury. There are two sides to this coin.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 28, 2018 8:26:31 GMT -5
I think the argument for Miller is that he should have been brought back as a free agent after the season is over (like the Yanks did with Chapman a couple of years back after trading him midseason). I don't really know if there's anyone at this point who thinks the Rodriguez deal shouldn't have happened. Before that Lurker, after 2013 when he broke his I believe it was his left foot the Sox FO was going to take him to arbitration and many of us here wanted them to sign him to a LT extension then. He already had 1 and a half season by then starting to show he had pretty much honed his craft and was developing into a good setup man. I believe he only got a cpl million then, they could have signed him for probably 3/15m at that time. But if this happens, they end up with Miller only through 2016 and Rodriguez is never on board. I prefer the way it worked out. |
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 28, 2018 9:10:06 GMT -5
Before that Lurker, after 2013 when he broke his I believe it was his left foot the Sox FO was going to take him to arbitration and many of us here wanted them to sign him to a LT extension then. He already had 1 and a half season by then starting to show he had pretty much honed his craft and was developing into a good setup man. I believe he only got a cpl million then, they could have signed him for probably 3/15m at that time. But if this happens, they end up with Miller only through 2016 and Rodriguez is never on board. I prefer the way it worked out. I would agree with that, yet the mistake really was not re-signing Miller once he hit FA, when we had a need and the budget to sign him, because we valued his skill set incorrectly. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 28, 2018 13:26:59 GMT -5
Kinda hard to argue you should have resigned a guy after you traded him and got a huge return. At that point you lose the team discount and he's just a free agent. You keep him and slap the QO on him and he's yours, yet you don't get ERod.
A whole lot of hindsight is being used with Miller, he was worth -.4, .7, .4, and .9 plus 1.0(with Balt) 1.9 bwar in his four seasons before free agency. He then went on to post 2.4, 3.7, and 3.1 bwar in his next three years. Given how relievers are up and down I'm not sure how you can make a great argument that we should have went crazy getting into a bidding war with the Yankees without using hindsight. We made a really aggressive offer if I remember right.
I'm with James on this one, I like the way it worked out. No one thought Miller would be the best reliever in the game for 3 straight years. If they did he would have got a lot more money.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2018 15:31:09 GMT -5
Kinda hard to argue you should have resigned a guy after you traded him and got a huge return. At that point you lose the team discount and he's just a free agent. You keep him and slap the QO on him and he's yours, yet you don't get ERod. A whole lot of hindsight is being used with Miller, he was worth -.4, .7, .4, and .9 plus 1.0(with Balt) 1.9 bwar in his four seasons before free agency. He then went on to post 2.4, 3.7, and 3.1 bwar in his next three years. Given how relievers are up and down I'm not sure how you can make a great argument that we should have went crazy getting into a bidding war with the Yankees without using hindsight. We made a really aggressive offer if I remember right. I'm with James on this one, I like the way it worked out. No one thought Miller would be the best reliever in the game for 3 straight years. If they did he would have got a lot more money. Rumor was at the time that 20+ million plus incentives was the Sox offer. Wasn't close to the Astros 40 million or Yankees 36 million. |
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Post by flabosox on Dec 28, 2018 16:35:41 GMT -5
"Rumor was at the time that 20+ million plus incentives was the Sox offer. Wasn't close to the Astros 40 million or Yankees 36 million."
This whole thread is obviously based on hindsight. So rumors are rumors but the fact is the Red Sox signed 40 year old Koji for $18 mil and passed up on 30 year Miller for $36 mil. Subsequently Sox also traded numerous prospects over the year to rebuild the bullpen. So this was a big miss even with the E Rod consolation prize. So it fits similarly to the original listing (below) of Lester on the top 5 list.
4. Jon Lester (although he was traded, should have been resigned at end of year.)
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 28, 2018 18:20:51 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2018 18:42:14 GMT -5
I mean, that doesn't tell you anything at all about the Sox offer Umass. He could have been modest to his old team to not burn any bridges in the future. |
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 29, 2018 15:48:37 GMT -5
I mean, that doesn't tell you anything at all about the Sox offer Umass. He could have been modest to his old team to not burn any bridges in the future. It doesn't? Would you strongly consider 20 million vs 36 million? So he lied to not burn any bridges? A simple I took the best offer does that Pedro. Whatever their offer was, it was enough to make him really think about it. Nevermind he kept talking about fit and took 36 million over 40 million from the Astros. He really wanted to go to the Yankees is what it sounds like. |
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Post by greatscottcooper on Dec 30, 2018 8:48:15 GMT -5
I remember really really really wanting to re-sign Beltre. There was a feeling among many, although not most, that he was over performing in a contract year. I never bought that argument, at least not for him. Assuming he plays with the same level of production in Boston (you could make the argument his numbers could be better)He would have provided both stability and production at the position all the way up to the Devers era.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 30, 2018 21:12:26 GMT -5
I remember really really really wanting to re-sign Beltre. There was a feeling among many, although not most, that he was over performing in a contract year. I never bought that argument, at least not for him. Assuming he plays with the same level of production in Boston (you could make the argument his numbers could be better)He would have provided both stability and production at the position all the way up to the Devers era. Keeping Beltre also leaves Youk at 1B, meaning no trade for Gonzalez...allowing Rizzo to take over and stabilize that position as well. |
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