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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 27, 2018 4:10:33 GMT -5
I was travelling and missed 4 days. How am I ever going to catch up with all the news ?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 27, 2018 17:08:19 GMT -5
I was travelling and missed 4 days. How am I ever going to catch up with all the news ? No worries, games don't start until March. There's no evidence that MLB free agency is the worst.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 27, 2018 17:28:48 GMT -5
I was travelling and missed 4 days. How am I ever going to catch up with all the news ? No worries, games don't start until March. There's no evidence that MLB free agency is the worst. Um, mock us using the right claim. There is no evidence that the slowness of MLB free agency has any affect on regular season results. I'm not sure what anyone expects between Christmas and New Years anyway.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 27, 2018 18:03:48 GMT -5
No worries, games don't start until March. There's no evidence that MLB free agency is the worst. Um, mock us using the right claim. There is no evidence that the slowness of MLB free agency has any affect on regular season results. I'm not sure what anyone expects between Christmas and New Years anyway. It has no effect on the regular season, which misses the mark of the whole point completely. It's about fan interest in the game, which someone else could say it's "arguable that fan interest isn't lost because of the slowest free agency in sports." I'm saying it doesn't help the cause. Dave Dombrowski has even come out and said that there should be deadlines in the off-season because of the pace. He's a GM. This is two offseasons in a row where we are about to hit January and big time free agents remain unsigned. I suspect that everything about what free agency is becoming in MLB will be the biggest talking point in the next CBA.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 27, 2018 18:29:52 GMT -5
I can understand wanting to avoid spring training holdouts, but other than that, who cares?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 27, 2018 18:40:17 GMT -5
I can understand wanting to avoid spring training holdouts, but other than that, who cares? Maybe Dave Dombrowski as I highlighted? Then here's this, which is also a problem connected to this one-
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 27, 2018 21:56:01 GMT -5
I’m 100% with Pedro on this, and argued the same thing here last winter.
You wrap up playoffs and have a clear, brief FA window to keep fans thinking about your sport in the offseason. It gets repeated national headlines, and if it’s early fans can dream of what could be the rest of the offseason.
MLB doesn’t do that, and they once again shoot them selves in the foot. From a fans perspective a drawn out offseason kills interest from the casual fan.
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 27, 2018 22:10:05 GMT -5
A long offseason where nothing happens at all between the first week in December and the beginning of March would also kill interest. There are the same number of things that happen every offseason. There is no amount of hype that can carry through the entire 12 months of the year no matter what you do. You guys are nuts.
If everything in the offseason happened in just one week, the other 4 months would be pretty brutal.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 27, 2018 22:17:16 GMT -5
I’m 100% with Pedro on this, and argued the same thing here last winter. You wrap up playoffs and have a clear, brief FA window to keep fans thinking about your sport in the offseason. It gets repeated national headlines, and if it’s early fans can dream of what could be the rest of the offseason. MLB doesn’t do that, and they once again shoot them selves in the foot. From a fans perspective a drawn out offseason kills interest from the casual fan. It just stinks because I remember the 2004 days and being amped about that team for months, even though they didn't spend the biggest dollars. My mom bought me a bunch of Red Sox stuff as a teenager before that season started. The Keith Foulke signing happened around the winter meetings and that was basically a wrap for that off-season. The hype was unreal, talked about for months. Not every off-season can be like that for the Sox, but it should be like that for at least 3 teams this winter or something like that. The same thing happened in 2007 with Dice-K. Unreal hype. The Yankees for example have soooo much excess cash flowing around after not going over the CBT last year and have every reason to spend big. Yet here we are talking about their biggest move being for Paxton because they got 2 years of a cost controlled starter. Like baseball isn't what it use to be when it comes to free agency anymore. Baseball is a sad sport if the Yankees aren't what they use to be with the wallet. Teams are looking for the best deals instead of the best players. Sucks the fun out of everything. I think the NBA gets so much hype, they do it right. People on the west coast were talking about LeBron to LA for months.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Dec 27, 2018 22:46:48 GMT -5
I’m 100% with Pedro on this, and argued the same thing here last winter. You wrap up playoffs and have a clear, brief FA window to keep fans thinking about your sport in the offseason. It gets repeated national headlines, and if it’s early fans can dream of what could be the rest of the offseason. MLB doesn’t do that, and they once again shoot them selves in the foot. From a fans perspective a drawn out offseason kills interest from the casual fan. It just stinks because I remember the 2004 days and being amped about that team for months, even though they didn't spend the biggest dollars. My mom bought me a bunch of Red Sox stuff as a teenager before that season started. The Keith Foulke signing happened around the winter meetings and that was basically a wrap for that off-season. The hype was unreal, talked about for months. Not every off-season can be like that for the Sox, but it should be like that for at least 3 teams this winter or something like that. The same thing happened in 2007 with Dice-K. Unreal hype. The Yankees for example have soooo much excess cash flowing around after not going over the CBT last year and have every reason to spend big. Yet here we are talking about their biggest move being for Paxton because they got 2 years of a cost controlled starter. Like baseball isn't what it use to be when it comes to free agency anymore. Baseball is a sad sport if the Yankees aren't what they use to be with the wallet. Teams are looking for the best deals instead of the best players. Sucks the fun out of everything. I think the NBA gets so much hype, they do it right. People on the west coast were talking about LeBron to LA for months. Perhaps the NBA offseason gets so much hype because the NBA is popular, and not the other way around. I'm really having a difficult time imagining that there's even one fan who's going to lose interest in baseball because free agent signings take too long. I mean, the later the big signing is, the less time the fan has to lose interest before the season starts. I think the only people who are actually frustrated with this are hardcore fans who are driving themselves crazy refreshing their browsers every half-hour looking for news - and I'm guessing that those people aren't going anywhere, so the game will probably survive.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Dec 27, 2018 22:50:43 GMT -5
Nfl does a great job keeping fans interest most of the year. Big part of that is the draft in the offseason. The other part is any team can sign the best players though.
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Post by Smittyw on Dec 27, 2018 23:12:36 GMT -5
I mean, if all the free agents signed three weeks ago, there would still be nothing going on right now. And I can't see any evidence that a J.D. Martinez (or Bryce Harper or Manny Machado) signing in January/February rather than November/December does anything to negatively impact fan interest once the season actually starts. But what do I know?
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Post by swingingbunt on Dec 28, 2018 0:13:14 GMT -5
I'm getting some wicked deja vu right now
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 28, 2018 6:45:02 GMT -5
I mean, if all the free agents signed three weeks ago, there would still be nothing going on right now. And I can't see any evidence that a J.D. Martinez (or Bryce Harper or Manny Machado) signing in January/February rather than November/December does anything to negatively impact fan interest once the season actually starts. But what do I know? Seriously. You people realize that if you open all your presents early, Christmas day is going to be awful boring, right?
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Post by 07redsox on Dec 28, 2018 7:44:51 GMT -5
I mean, if all the free agents signed three weeks ago, there would still be nothing going on right now. And I can't see any evidence that a J.D. Martinez (or Bryce Harper or Manny Machado) signing in January/February rather than November/December does anything to negatively impact fan interest once the season actually starts. But what do I know? Seriously. You people realize that if you open all your presents early, Christmas day is going to be awful boring, right? Exactly! And for those arguing that early signings mean fans can spend time dreaming about the season and what could be: does that not happen already? Do you think people don't get excited when reports comes out that their favorite team met with this or that free agent, or are in negotiations with them? If that is the only argument for increasing fan interest then it's a very weak one.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 28, 2018 7:49:29 GMT -5
I mean, if all the free agents signed three weeks ago, there would still be nothing going on right now. And I can't see any evidence that a J.D. Martinez (or Bryce Harper or Manny Machado) signing in January/February rather than November/December does anything to negatively impact fan interest once the season actually starts. But what do I know? Seriously. You people realize that if you open all your presents early, Christmas day is going to be awful boring, right? Well the NBA and the NFL do exactly that, and their off-seasons seem to have grown in fan interest over the last 25 years. Baseball's Hot Stove season used to be the most talked about off-season when I was growing up. Not so much any more. Personally, I would consider moving the draft back to early November and create a FA signing period of 10 days after the World Series to the week after New Years. That combo would keep baseball in the national conversation close to spring training. You know, sort of like what the NBA has done. Remember that the NBA was on its death bed less than 40 years ago until a new commissioner who was a very shrewd marketer came in and advanced the interest In the game. Yeah Larry and Magic were critical to that resurgence too, but they definitely didn't do it alone. Baseball is moving towards irrelevancy faster than I think you all realize here.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Dec 28, 2018 8:36:13 GMT -5
The market is slow because owners have taught themselves, likely without colluding, that they have a better chance of the getting players cheaper the longer they wait. This is a bit of a different year because Harper and Machado sweepstakes and their contracts could provide inflationary pressure on players costs below.them, and all parties may feel the need to wait and see on those deals.
I think, generally speaking, owners have convinced themselves that waiting helps their negotiating position and maybe the data supports that.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 28, 2018 9:13:52 GMT -5
Seriously. You people realize that if you open all your presents early, Christmas day is going to be awful boring, right? Well the NBA and the NFL do exactly that, and their off-seasons seem to have grown in fan interest over the last 25 years. Baseball's Hot Stove season used to be the most talked about off-season when I was growing up. Not so much any more. Personally, I would consider moving the draft back to early November and create a FA signing period of 10 days after the World Series to the week after New Years. That combo would keep baseball in the national conversation close to spring training. You know, sort of like what the NBA has done. Remember that the NBA was on its death bed less than 40 years ago until a new commissioner who was a very shrewd marketer came in and advanced the interest In the game. Yeah Larry and Magic were critical to that resurgence too, but they definitely didn't do it alone. Baseball is moving towards irrelevancy faster than I think you all realize here. No no, don't undercut yourself, I'm sure it was all about obscure CBA rules governing the timing of offseason transactions. That's how you make the real money.
I don't know. People decided this was a problem like a year ago. If you have any actual data that shows that it is, fine. Otherwise it seems like a pretty pointless debate.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2018 10:54:06 GMT -5
I'm getting some wicked deja vu right now Two off-seasons in a row. Once or if baseball free agency changes, then the conversation will change. One more free agency until baseball war comes down between the players union and MLB..
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Post by rjp313jr on Dec 28, 2018 10:56:02 GMT -5
The market is slow because owners have taught themselves, likely without colluding, that they have a better chance of the getting players cheaper the longer they wait. This is a bit of a different year because Harper and Machado sweepstakes and their contracts could provide inflationary pressure on players costs below.them, and all parties may feel the need to wait and see on those deals. I think, generally speaking, owners have convinced themselves that waiting helps their negotiating position and maybe the data supports that. Owners realized that massive contracts usually don’t work out. It’s not worth gambling on them. Machado is probably the rare exception due to his entire profile, but the guy is a jackass so that’s hurt his marketability. Harper is the perfect age too but still a big risk not worth taking. I wouldn’t give that guy more than 6 years. On the baseball field, one guy just can’t impact the game the same way they can in other sports, especially the NBA.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Dec 28, 2018 10:56:50 GMT -5
I mean, if all the free agents signed three weeks ago, there would still be nothing going on right now. And I can't see any evidence that a J.D. Martinez (or Bryce Harper or Manny Machado) signing in January/February rather than November/December does anything to negatively impact fan interest once the season actually starts. But what do I know? Seriously. You people realize that if you open all your presents early, Christmas day is going to be awful boring, right? I was having a ton of fun in the 2004 off-season. That off-season was over in weeks and my parents bought me merchandise and 2 games in season because of the off-season. Talked about getting Schilling and the combination of Foulke for weeks. I can't speak for everyone else, but the hype makes it awesome.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Dec 28, 2018 11:21:42 GMT -5
Thanks to Christmas and family gatherings, I just had conversations with several pre-teen nephews, ages 5 to 11. Fans of Giants, Dodgers, Cards and Red Sox. So glad there were no nyfy fans, as they would have been unhappy in that crowd. They knew just what was going on with their teams, and their competitors. Ditto with my own kids, grandkids and their friends. Went to the Christmas youth liturgy at church, and many teens were sporting their Dodgers and Angels gear along with Rams and Lakers. Spotted dozens of team hats in Christmas crowds around soCal and norCal, including Cubs, Reds, D’backs, Padres, A’s, Red Sox and, on Asian tourists, nyfy. And finally, when Intalk to my bros and connections, conversations always include what will the 2019 Sox look like.
Fanbases are involved. My personal observations may be no more valuable than asserting that Beni is a good left fielder based on his postseason catches, but I can’t imagine kids and tourists from weeks of these gatherings and conversations, in different parts of the country, are anomalies.
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 28, 2018 11:36:47 GMT -5
Well the NBA and the NFL do exactly that, and their off-seasons seem to have grown in fan interest over the last 25 years. Baseball's Hot Stove season used to be the most talked about off-season when I was growing up. Not so much any more. Personally, I would consider moving the draft back to early November and create a FA signing period of 10 days after the World Series to the week after New Years. That combo would keep baseball in the national conversation close to spring training. You know, sort of like what the NBA has done. Remember that the NBA was on its death bed less than 40 years ago until a new commissioner who was a very shrewd marketer came in and advanced the interest In the game. Yeah Larry and Magic were critical to that resurgence too, but they definitely didn't do it alone. Baseball is moving towards irrelevancy faster than I think you all realize here. No no, don't undercut yourself, I'm sure it was all about obscure CBA rules governing the timing of offseason transactions. That's how you make the real money.
I don't know. People decided this was a problem like a year ago. If you have any actual data that shows that it is, fine. Otherwise it seems like a pretty pointless debate. I'd be thrilled to actually have an intelligent, useful conversation on this topic if you're willing. Let's open here: www.newsweek.com/no-longer-americas-game-2018-world-series-ratings-drop-over-20-percent-1194853Feel free to give your actual data to refute why this isn't a concern at all. I'd ask that you refrain from your standard 'sarcastic comment - you need to prove this but I don't - therefore I'm right' template posts.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Dec 28, 2018 12:22:39 GMT -5
No no, don't undercut yourself, I'm sure it was all about obscure CBA rules governing the timing of offseason transactions. That's how you make the real money.
I don't know. People decided this was a problem like a year ago. If you have any actual data that shows that it is, fine. Otherwise it seems like a pretty pointless debate. I'd be thrilled to actually have an intelligent, useful conversation on this topic if you're willing. Let's open here: www.newsweek.com/no-longer-americas-game-2018-world-series-ratings-drop-over-20-percent-1194853Feel free to give your actual data to refute why this isn't a concern at all. I'd ask that you refrain from your standard 'sarcastic comment - you need to prove this but I don't - therefore I'm right' template posts. It's reasonable to feel worried about baseball if you want it to be on top of the sports landscape. It may well be that it continues to lose ground to other sports as older fans die and younger fans prefer the NBA, the NFL, or soccer. I personally don't really care if baseball is the most popular sport in the country or the fifth most popular, but guess I understand wanting the thing you like to have greater cultural clout. That said, I just think you're totally wrong that the past two slow offseasons contribute to declining interest in baseball. Baseball's "problems" are much more deeply ingrained and harder to fix: it's too slow for the streaming generation, the season is too long and takes too much of a commitment to follow, it's too white, it involves fewer incredible athletic feats that make for good twitter videos, it's not an ideal vehicle for star players since they can't dominate. If baseball is declining (and I think that decline is overblown), it's for all of those reasons. THAT'S why the offseason isn't "hyped" by media outlets. I have to say, though, that other than increasing the diversity of the game, I really wouldn't want to fix any of those "problems" I listed. There's a reason that we're baseball fans, right? I don't want it to be the NBA. Plus, I don't need to hear insipid talking heads on ESPN discussing baseball when I can get much smarter commentary on SoxProspects.com
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Post by soxcentral on Dec 28, 2018 12:47:22 GMT -5
Fenwaydouble, I appreciate the reply. My overall point is that MLB currently sits on an economic bubble that will eventually crash due in large part to their poor marketing approach. Further, I do believe the boring offseason is both a symptom of their tone-deaf approach, and a contributing factor to its current 6 year trend of declining attendance. Pinpointing the factors we each believe to be the reason is, to me at least, an interesting discussion. To further it, here's a recent roundtable discussion led by ARod with current MLB players on this topic (preview - it doesn't prove or disprove either of our points):
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