SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 23, 2019 9:22:56 GMT -5
The HOF voters are the worst though. Seeing Mussina in the HOF but Schilling not just more evidence. You can argue that Schillings regular season is borderline (although then you need to do the same with Mussina), but Schilling did that around many injuries and then you add in his post season dominance over a pretty large sampling he should be in over a guy like Mussina.
It’s really sad the reason many aren’t voting for him are because they disagree with his politics.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 23, 2019 9:34:33 GMT -5
The HOF voters are the worst though. Seeing Mussina in the HOF but Schilling not just more evidence. You can argue that Schillings regular season is borderline (although then you need to do the same with Mussina), but Schilling did that around many injuries and then you add in his post season dominance over a pretty large sampling he should be in over a guy like Mussina. It’s really sad the reason many aren’t voting for him are because they disagree with his politics. Mussina was excellent in the postseason, too. Also, I think "politics" is a pretty soft word for the kind of stuff Schilling has said, and with the Rhode Island stuff on top of it. The fact that filth is considered "politics" says more about our politics than it does about Schilling or those not voting for him. He's a fascist and a fraudster who called for the lynching of the people responsible for voting for him, who was also a Hall of Fame quality pitcher. I'd vote for him, because to me the Hall of Fame isn't about that stuff. There are plenty of scumbags enshrined. But I'm certainly not going to lose a moment's sleep over him not getting in. There are billions of people in the world more deserving of my sympathy. He made his bed, he can sleep in it.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 23, 2019 10:10:17 GMT -5
The HOF voters are the worst though. Seeing Mussina in the HOF but Schilling not just more evidence. You can argue that Schillings regular season is borderline (although then you need to do the same with Mussina), but Schilling did that around many injuries and then you add in his post season dominance over a pretty large sampling he should be in over a guy like Mussina. It’s really sad the reason many aren’t voting for him are because they disagree with his politics. Mussina was excellent in the postseason, too. Also, I think "politics" is a pretty soft word for the kind of stuff Schilling has said, and with the Rhode Island stuff on top of it. The fact that filth is considered "politics" says more about our politics than it does about Schilling or those not voting for him. He's a fascist and a fraudster who called for the lynching of the people responsible for voting for him, who was also a Hall of Fame quality pitcher. I'd vote for him, because to me the Hall of Fame isn't about that stuff. There are plenty of scumbags enshrined. But I'm certainly not going to lose a moment's sleep over him not getting in. There are billions of people in the world more deserving of my sympathy. He made his bed, he can sleep in it. Edit: never mind i just can’t with this... not a road to go down here
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 23, 2019 10:54:04 GMT -5
Remember when the problem with PED users was their influence on The Children? How does that figure into Schilling spreading insane xenophobic conspiracy theories as far as his public platform will carry them?
He deserves to be in on the baseball merits, but I couldn't bring myself to vote for him. Not if what Pete Rose or Barry Bonds did is enough of a moral/ethical infraction to justify keeping them out. If quality of character counts at all, Schilling is out for me.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 23, 2019 11:34:00 GMT -5
Remember when the problem with PED users was their influence on The Children? How does that figure into Schilling spreading insane xenophobic conspiracy theories as far as his public platform will carry them? He deserves to be in on the baseball merits, but I couldn't bring myself to vote for him. Not if what Pete Rose or Barry Bonds did is enough of a moral/ethical infraction to justify keeping them out. If quality of character counts at all, Schilling is out for me. He played with players from around the world. Have any of them said anything negative about him? He may (he does) have piss poor judgement on what is good policy for this country but the narrative that it’s rooted in hatred for other races or groups of people is a stretch. “it’s always appropriate to question another man’s judgment, but never appropriate to question his motives because you simply don't know his motives” Joe Biden
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 23, 2019 11:43:54 GMT -5
It sounds like certain writers/voters are entrenched in their opinions re: Clemens, Bonds, and Schilling.
Doesn't sound like it will change enough come the end of 2022.
So the veterans' committee or whatever they call themselves will have decisions to make. Some of that small committee are made up of players. Helps to have a good personal relationships with players and executives the way that Baines did.
That might be good for Clemens, but not necessarily great for Bonds or Schilling. I think Clemens was generally liked by his teammates. I think Bonds rubbed some the wrong way as did Schilling.
I could be totally wrong here and we're talking a small number of former players in this committee so the above might not matter. I just have trouble seeing players advocating for a Schilling the way Ted Williams advocated for Phil Rizzuto. I would think from a ballplayers' POV Schilling's talents would make him a borderline HOFer and Bonds' talents would make him a slam dunk.
All I can say is I can't wait to see what happens in 2022 when Clemens, Schilling, and Bonds are still on the ballot and David Ortiz and Alex Rodriguez join the ballot. It should be pretty interesting.
I do think Ortiz will get in and won't have to wait long. I think he had enough good relationships with the voters/writers that they won't really hold the DH thing against him and some will actually realize that he didn't necessarily have a positive test (he could have been one of the false positives) in an anonymous testing in 2003 before testing was a thing. He's outgoing and doesn't exude phoniness like an A-Rod so I think that bodes well for Ortiz, but I think there will be enough pushback that he might just miss in 2022 before going in for 2023.
These personality things shouldn't matter, but I believe that among a number of writers/voters image does matter. The image thing certainly isn't helping Schilling even though his numbers are there to be Hall worthy.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 23, 2019 12:01:14 GMT -5
Remember when the problem with PED users was their influence on The Children? How does that figure into Schilling spreading insane xenophobic conspiracy theories as far as his public platform will carry them? He deserves to be in on the baseball merits, but I couldn't bring myself to vote for him. Not if what Pete Rose or Barry Bonds did is enough of a moral/ethical infraction to justify keeping them out. If quality of character counts at all, Schilling is out for me. He played with players from around the world. Have any of them said anything negative about him? He may (he does) have piss poor judgement on what is good policy for this country but the narrative that it’s rooted in hatred for other races or groups of people is a stretch. “it’s always appropriate to question another man’s judgment, but never appropriate to question his motives because you simply don't know his motives” Joe Biden And regarding his motives... motives don't matter. Actions do. “We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.” ― Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 23, 2019 12:22:57 GMT -5
Remember when the problem with PED users was their influence on The Children? How does that figure into Schilling spreading insane xenophobic conspiracy theories as far as his public platform will carry them? He deserves to be in on the baseball merits, but I couldn't bring myself to vote for him. Not if what Pete Rose or Barry Bonds did is enough of a moral/ethical infraction to justify keeping them out. If quality of character counts at all, Schilling is out for me. He played with players from around the world. Have any of them said anything negative about him? He may (he does) have piss poor judgement on what is good policy for this country but the narrative that it’s rooted in hatred for other races or groups of people is a stretch. “it’s always appropriate to question another man’s judgment, but never appropriate to question his motives because you simply don't know his motives” Joe Biden My wife was, for a numbers of years, a newspaper journalist. With this in mind, by what you say it's imperative that I take his words about lynching journalists at face value then, rather than trying to understand his meaning. If we're only questioning judgment, not motives, then we won't get into him saying WHY my wife should be strung up on a tree or WHY my cousin (who is transgender) is subhuman. I just need to acknowledge it. If you want to tiptoe around saying "he's a bad person" to "well, his judgment causes him to do things a bad person would do and say things a bad person would say" that's fine. If sports is meant to be an escape, stuff like that makes it hard for it to be. Curt Schilling makes me enjoy baseball less. I don't particularly enjoy watching my 2004 World Championship DVD anymore, for one thing. Would I trade it for having not won? I'm in the minority, but yeah, I might - sports isn't real life, and I wouldn't be a different person if the Red Sox had lost that year. That doesn't change his accomplishments on the field - as I said, I'd vote for him. But I don't care if he gets in, and I'd skip his plaque when I visit Cooperstown.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 23, 2019 12:40:11 GMT -5
My wife was, for a numbers of years, a newspaper journalist. With this in mine, by what you say it's imperative that I take his words about lynching journalists at face value then, rather than trying to understand his meaning. If we're only questioning judgment, not motives, then we won't get into him saying WHY my wife should be strung up on a tree or WHY my cousin (who is transgender) is subhuman. I just need to acknowledge it. If you want to tiptoe around saying "he's a bad person" to "well, his judgment causes him to do things a bad person would do and say things a bad person would say" that's fine. If sports is meant to be an escape, stuff like that makes it hard for it to be. Curt Schilling makes me enjoy baseball less. I don't particularly enjoy watching my 2004 World Championship DVD anymore, for one thing. Would I trade it for having not won? I'm in the minority, but yeah, I might - sports isn't real life, and I wouldn't be a different person if the Red Sox had lost that year. That doesn't change his accomplishments on the field - as I said, I'd vote for him. But I don't care if he gets in, and I'd skip his plaque when I visit Cooperstown. This is an old, oft-cited video, but it really is the best three minutes you're going to hear on the subject: It's not about who you are, it's about what you did.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 23, 2019 12:48:07 GMT -5
He played with players from around the world. Have any of them said anything negative about him? He may (he does) have piss poor judgement on what is good policy for this country but the narrative that it’s rooted in hatred for other races or groups of people is a stretch. “it’s always appropriate to question another man’s judgment, but never appropriate to question his motives because you simply don't know his motives” Joe Biden And regarding his motives... motives don't matter. Actions do. “We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.” ― Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night Right motives don’t matter.... two woman shoot a man dead. First woman does it because the guy broke up with her and moved on the second does it because the guy was holding her captive and beating her... same same - it’s the action not the motive.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on Jan 23, 2019 14:43:35 GMT -5
And regarding his motives... motives don't matter. Actions do. “We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.” ― Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night Right motives don’t matter.... two woman shoot a man dead. First woman does it because the guy broke up with her and moved on the second does it because the guy was holding her captive and beating her... same same - it’s the action not the motive. The issue in your hypothetical isn't the motive, it's the meaning of the actions in context. There's plenty enough context to judge Schilling's actions. Of course, the criteria for selection to the Hall of Fame explicitly do ask us to judge the character of players, which is an unreasonable thing to ask of people (even reporters) who generally only know players through the filter of the media and all its many distortions. And partly for that reason, I would mostly ignore the question of character if I were a voter, and I would vote for Schilling. Having said that... I mean, come on. Schilling is definitely a douchebag.
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 23, 2019 15:10:21 GMT -5
Right motives don’t matter.... two woman shoot a man dead. First woman does it because the guy broke up with her and moved on the second does it because the guy was holding her captive and beating her... same same - it’s the action not the motive. The issue in your hypothetical isn't the motive, it's the meaning of the actions in context. There's plenty enough context to judge Schilling's actions. Of course, the criteria for selection to the Hall of Fame explicitly do ask us to judge the character of players, which is an unreasonable thing to ask of people (even reporters) who generally only know players through the filter of the media and all its many distortions. And partly for that reason, I would mostly ignore the question of character if I were a voter, and I would vote for Schilling. Having said that... I mean, come on. Schilling is definitely a douchebag. I agree he’s a douchebag, but by the criteria people are bringing up lots of guys who are in the HOF shouldn’t be.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Jan 23, 2019 15:16:44 GMT -5
If sports is meant to be an escape, stuff like that makes it hard for it to be. Curt Schilling makes me enjoy baseball less. I don't particularly enjoy watching my 2004 World Championship DVD anymore, for one thing. Would I trade it for having not won? I'm in the minority, but yeah, I might - sports isn't real life, and I wouldn't be a different person if the Red Sox had lost that year. That doesn't change his accomplishments on the field - as I said, I'd vote for him. But I don't care if he gets in, and I'd skip his plaque when I visit Cooperstown. Yeah man I don't know. I wouldn't trade one of my favorite memories for anything and besides, unless I'm missing something here, Schilling's biggest crime might be that he has an opinion that you disagree with strongly. It's not like he's a rapist like Kobe Bryant or Ben Roethlisberger. But you do you I guess.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 23, 2019 15:35:49 GMT -5
Remember when the problem with PED users was their influence on The Children? How does that figure into Schilling spreading insane xenophobic conspiracy theories as far as his public platform will carry them? There's quite a difference between a child knowing and believing that he absolutely has to use PEDs if he has any professional sports aspirations and a child believing that he has to act like a raving lunatic after he retires from professional sports 40 years later for no reason other than to get ostracized from the sport he played.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 23, 2019 15:40:36 GMT -5
If sports is meant to be an escape, stuff like that makes it hard for it to be. Curt Schilling makes me enjoy baseball less. I don't particularly enjoy watching my 2004 World Championship DVD anymore, for one thing. Would I trade it for having not won? I'm in the minority, but yeah, I might - sports isn't real life, and I wouldn't be a different person if the Red Sox had lost that year. That doesn't change his accomplishments on the field - as I said, I'd vote for him. But I don't care if he gets in, and I'd skip his plaque when I visit Cooperstown. Yeah man I don't know. I wouldn't trade one of my favorite memories for anything and besides, unless I'm missing something here, Schilling's biggest crime might be that he has an opinion that you disagree with strongly. It's not like he's a rapist like Kobe Bryant or Ben Roethlisberger. But you do you I guess. I mean, his opinion that I disagree with strongly is that my wife should be lynched. We're not going back and forth over whether a hot dog is a sandwich here.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 23, 2019 15:42:51 GMT -5
Yeah man I don't know. I wouldn't trade one of my favorite memories for anything and besides, unless I'm missing something here, Schilling's biggest crime might be that he has an opinion that you disagree with strongly. It's not like he's a rapist like Kobe Bryant or Ben Roethlisberger. But you do you I guess. I mean, his opinion that I disagree with strongly is that my wife should be murdered? We're not going back and forth over whether a hot dog is a sandwich here. Do you really believe he was literally calling for murder? Because he could go to prison for that and would have bigger problems than whether he gets in the HOF.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 23, 2019 15:46:56 GMT -5
I mean, his opinion that I disagree with strongly is that my wife should be murdered? We're not going back and forth over whether a hot dog is a sandwich here. Do you really believe he was literally calling for murder? Because he could go to prison for that and would have bigger problems than whether he gets in the HOF. File it under "things I don't have a sense of humor about." And it's getting off topic, but yes, I do believe the loose language about murdering journalists is a component in the rise in the murder of journalists.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 23, 2019 15:48:02 GMT -5
I agree he’s a douchebag, but by the criteria people are bringing up lots of guys who are in the HOF shouldn’t be. Yup.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Jan 23, 2019 15:51:13 GMT -5
I mean, his opinion that I disagree with strongly is that my wife should be lynched. We're not going back and forth over whether a hot dog is a sandwich here. I'm a journalist too. My girlfriend is a journalist. I'm not arguing whether or not his tweet was alright, I'm saying it was just a tweet and maybe you're overacting. Sticks and stones and whatever. I do realize I have no bearing on telling you how you should feel about anything and I'm sorry if I inevitably did just that lol but philosophically I don't appreciate living in an era where every interaction we have is so public and prone to condemn us for the rest of our lives. We're surrounded by high horses.
|
|
|
Post by James Dunne on Jan 23, 2019 16:02:57 GMT -5
I mean, his opinion that I disagree with strongly is that my wife should be lynched. We're not going back and forth over whether a hot dog is a sandwich here. I'm a journalist too. My girlfriend is a journalist. I'm not arguing whether or not his tweet was alright, I'm saying it was just a tweet and maybe you're overacting. Sticks and stones and whatever. I do realize I have no bearing on telling you how you should feel about anything and I'm sorry if I inevitably did just that lol but philosophically I don't appreciate living in an era where every interaction we have is so public and prone to condemn us for the rest of our lives. We're surrounded by high horses. Yeah, it's not like this was a one-off mistake, or even a Josh Hader "said truly gross stuff that I'm sure he didn't mean in that way because he was a dumb kid and was probably raised in an environment not to know better." He has a pattern of saying disgusting things, and he's an actual criminal fraudster. And despite all that, I'd still vote for him to go to the Hall of Fame. I just don't care if he gets in.
|
|
|
Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 23, 2019 16:57:12 GMT -5
I mean, his opinion that I disagree with strongly is that my wife should be lynched. We're not going back and forth over whether a hot dog is a sandwich here. I'm a journalist too. My girlfriend is a journalist. I'm not arguing whether or not his tweet was alright, I'm saying it was just a tweetand maybe you're overacting. Sticks and stones and whatever. I do realize I have no bearing on telling you how you should feel about anything and I'm sorry if I inevitably did just that lol but philosophically I don't appreciate living in an era where every interaction we have is so public and prone to condemn us for the rest of our lives. We're surrounded by high horses. So he said something bad, but at least he, uhh... broadcast it to the largest possible audience?
|
|
|
Post by rjp313jr on Jan 23, 2019 17:13:51 GMT -5
Since it’s been talked about on multiple occasions, here is the tweet that is being referred to. If there are other instances, please share.
|
|
|
Post by Don Caballero on Jan 23, 2019 17:17:17 GMT -5
Yeah, it's not like this was a one-off mistake, or even a Josh Hader "said truly gross stuff that I'm sure he didn't mean in that way because he was a dumb kid and was probably raised in an environment not to know better." He has a pattern of saying disgusting things, and he's an actual criminal fraudster. And despite all that, I'd still vote for him to go to the Hall of Fame. I just don't care if he gets in. Which is fair enough. Just don't feel bad about 2004 man, every title run probably features at the very least one gigantic a**hole even if we don't know about them. So he said something bad, but at least he, uhh... broadcast it to the largest possible audience? That is stupid indeed. If I'm a public figure right now I'm deleting every single social media account I have. Even if I don't plan on making some dumb joke, you never know when a horde of common folk heroes are storming my timeline to post about having anal sex with my 17 year old daughter when I share she's going to college.
|
|
|
Post by jimed14 on Jan 23, 2019 17:41:01 GMT -5
People will remember the dumb sh*t Schilling said on twitter long after they forget about all the a-holes that beat their wives and girlfriends. I wonder if Kobe Bryant might not get into the HOF with rape attached to his resume (of course he'll get in). Some perspective is good.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 23, 2019 19:36:40 GMT -5
Really that is the tweet people are talking about? That turns into he called for lynching journalists? Really? Wow.
Also how is a failed business make him a fraudster? Zero charges were filed, he did nothing wrong but not be good at running a video game company and those are crazy hard to run in this market. He lost all his wealth in the deal also. Don't give me that because a state was stupid, it some how makes it worse than it was. They lured him and wanted the jobs. They should have researched the industry because more fail than succeed.
|
|
|