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Red Sox, X. Bogaerts Agree to Extension (6 years/$120 mill)
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Post by Don Caballero on Apr 2, 2019 20:38:45 GMT -5
"Goofy looking? What are you looking at? I love this kid. He is super intelligent, and IS a very nice looking gentleman. I only wish our whole roster was Xander like He has a calm and very laid back demeanor, he doesn't look like Mookie or JBJ in that you see the sheer unadulterated intense focus in their eyes. It's a personality thing and by no means I meant it as a criticism, Xander is probably my favorite Red Sox player. This may sound weird, but I see some idealized version of Manny Ramirez in him, the good kind of goofy. Fun kind of goofy, never crossing the unprofessional line. However it's something to consider in why it seems frustrating when he takes a bad AB (and I posted that still thinking about his 3 called strikes AB to end the game) or make an error, his body language suggests low effort and that's why he'll always be kind of divisive among the fanbase. Not to me though, I love his game and we're lucky to have him for his peak.
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Post by telson13 on Apr 2, 2019 21:48:52 GMT -5
Fangraphs piece says Xander left about $50 million - 29.4% - of his value on the table. blogs.fangraphs.com/sox-bogaerts-agree-on-120-million-extensionI will bet my icon for the next three years (with an opt-out after 2) that Mookie does not leave 29% or more of his estimated value (fWAR/$ Fangraphs formula) on the table in his next deal. Xander def feels he found a home* for most of the rest of his career. *Pending his use of the opt-out post new CBA. Idk...that’s a tough bet for you to win because Mookie almost certainly wouldn’t be paid in accordance with his true value. Even if he gets a Trout deal, he’s “leaving a ton of money on the table,” because his true AAV based on the past three years is basically $60M (avg 8 WAR/yr x $8M/WAR) which nobody will pay. But in the “spirit” of what you’re saying, I agree. I think he’ll try to (and possibly...probably...will) beat Trout’s deal.
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Post by telson13 on Apr 2, 2019 21:53:19 GMT -5
Me, reading thread title: "Oh neat, Xander Bogearts has signed an extension. He is a player I enjoy! Let us see the reactions Thread content: "The economy doesn't work if labor accidentally earns too money, and lawyers should be burned at the stake." Me: Kudos on perfect use of a classic Homer gif.
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Post by m1keyboots on Apr 3, 2019 15:21:48 GMT -5
"Goofy looking? What are you looking at? I love this kid. He is super intelligent, and IS a very nice looking gentleman. I only wish our whole roster was Xander like He has a calm and very laid back demeanor, he doesn't look like Mookie or JBJ in that you see the sheer unadulterated intense focus in their eyes. It's a personality thing and by no means I meant it as a criticism, Xander is probably my favorite Red Sox player. This may sound weird, but I see some idealized version of Manny Ramirez in him, the good kind of goofy. Fun kind of goofy, never crossing the unprofessional line. However it's something to consider in why it seems frustrating when he takes a bad AB (and I posted that still thinking about his 3 called strikes AB to end the game) or make an error, his body language suggests low effort and that's why he'll always be kind of divisive among the fanbase. Not to me though, I love his game and we're lucky to have him for his peak. Bogaerts is divisive among the fanbase? That would mean there are clear groups who think differently completely, about Xander. I thought the groups were "he's fine" and "wish he could have a little more range". I guess I was really wrong lol. If this is the case, then I'm genuinely surprised and would like to know if that's the way it is. This isn't a challenge to you, maybe just because where I live the shortstops are bad on the teams. That's why people like Xander more universally outside of Boston's fanbase? Idk I don't see the passivity we saw from Manny. And we all know no matter how it looks, to play MLB you have to be super focused at shortstop. I can't really remember him making that many errors besides at 3rd, and he showed pretty good body language then, and he was 19 years old I think 20?. Idk. If it's about looking at 3 called strikes I'm not sure what to say apart from sorry you saw that from Manny first. Maybe, you're conflating the two now because of that?. Idk apart from that I don't see many similarities and Manny and Xander. If he is divisive it's a bummer to hear. I guess we should ask him to switch hit
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Post by Don Caballero on Apr 3, 2019 22:50:18 GMT -5
Bogaerts is divisive among the fanbase? That would mean there are clear groups who think differently completely, about Xander. I thought the groups were "he's fine" and "wish he could have a little more range". I guess I was really wrong lol. If this is the case, then I'm genuinely surprised and would like to know if that's the way it is. This isn't a challenge to you, maybe just because where I live the shortstops are bad on the teams. That's why people like Xander more universally outside of Boston's fanbase? Idk I don't see the passivity we saw from Manny. And we all know no matter how it looks, to play MLB you have to be super focused at shortstop. I can't really remember him making that many errors besides at 3rd, and he showed pretty good body language then, and he was 19 years old I think 20?. Idk. If it's about looking at 3 called strikes I'm not sure what to say apart from sorry you saw that from Manny first. Maybe, you're conflating the two now because of that?. Idk apart from that I don't see many similarities and Manny and Xander. If he is divisive it's a bummer to hear. I guess we should ask him to switch hit Not divisive meaning people think he sucks, but I don't think his greatness is properly appreciated. I'm not arguing something scientific or anything, just stuff I notice from the gameday threads, Red Sox blogs or even this very thread in that you don't have a colossal freakout. Maybe it's because this core has so many great players, but Xander isn't as fiercely lauded as Mookie and to me at least a part of that is due to their difference in personality. Don't take my word for it though, I'm far from an expert and this could be me creating narratives where there isn't one. But I do think he's underrated. Xander is very professional, while Manny certainly could have done better at many things in that area. But you know, he put in far more effort than most people realize. You don't become one of if not the best RH hitter from your generation if you don't try hard, and I'm sure Manny did it. I see some unpretentious nature about them that may rub people wrong, it's a side effect of having a more laid back personality (granted, Manny was a more extrovert character than Bogaerts, but the body language is similar). Your mistakes will get extrapolated and conflated with lack of effort. You'd never call Mookie or Benny lazy, but people might be more willing to do that with Xander. Point is, he isn't IMO as unanimously considered great as other Red Sox greats.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 4, 2019 8:45:52 GMT -5
Bogaerts is divisive among the fanbase? That would mean there are clear groups who think differently completely, about Xander. I thought the groups were "he's fine" and "wish he could have a little more range". I guess I was really wrong lol. If this is the case, then I'm genuinely surprised and would like to know if that's the way it is. This isn't a challenge to you, maybe just because where I live the shortstops are bad on the teams. That's why people like Xander more universally outside of Boston's fanbase? Idk I don't see the passivity we saw from Manny. And we all know no matter how it looks, to play MLB you have to be super focused at shortstop. I can't really remember him making that many errors besides at 3rd, and he showed pretty good body language then, and he was 19 years old I think 20?. Idk. If it's about looking at 3 called strikes I'm not sure what to say apart from sorry you saw that from Manny first. Maybe, you're conflating the two now because of that?. Idk apart from that I don't see many similarities and Manny and Xander. If he is divisive it's a bummer to hear. I guess we should ask him to switch hit Not divisive meaning people think he sucks, but I don't think his greatness is properly appreciated. I'm not arguing something scientific or anything, just stuff I notice from the gameday threads, Red Sox blogs or even this very thread in that you don't have a colossal freakout. Maybe it's because this core has so many great players, but Xander isn't as fiercely lauded as Mookie and to me at least a part of that is due to their difference in personality. Don't take my word for it though, I'm far from an expert and this could be me creating narratives where there isn't one. But I do think he's underrated. Xander is very professional, while Manny certainly could have done better at many things in that area. But you know, he put in far more effort than most people realize. You don't become one of if not the best RH hitter from your generation if you don't try hard, and I'm sure Manny did it. I see some unpretentious nature about them that may rub people wrong, it's a side effect of having a more laid back personality (granted, Manny was a more extrovert character than Bogaerts, but the body language is similar). Your mistakes will get extrapolated and conflated with lack of effort. You'd never call Mookie or Benny lazy, but people might be more willing to do that with Xander. Point is, he isn't IMO as unanimously considered great as other Red Sox greats. I think part of that is that expectations were absurdly high for him, and the fact that he makes stuff look kinda easy and relaxed at the plate. Instead of appreciating Bogaerts, I feel like he's always had this "why isn't he better" stigma about him - sorta like with JD Drew, though Drew's injuries added to that. When someone looks like an MVP-caliber player in the minors and he ends up turning into "just" an All-Star, that colors people's perception. Bogaerts also isn't the natural defender that some others are (especially the ridiculous modern shortstops like Lindor or Simmons), and defensive errors are often written as mental or personality defects rather than a skill deficiency. But yeah, Bogaerts is really, really good and I'm very happy about this deal.
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Post by jimed14 on Apr 4, 2019 9:06:21 GMT -5
Not divisive meaning people think he sucks, but I don't think his greatness is properly appreciated. I'm not arguing something scientific or anything, just stuff I notice from the gameday threads, Red Sox blogs or even this very thread in that you don't have a colossal freakout. Maybe it's because this core has so many great players, but Xander isn't as fiercely lauded as Mookie and to me at least a part of that is due to their difference in personality. Don't take my word for it though, I'm far from an expert and this could be me creating narratives where there isn't one. But I do think he's underrated. Xander is very professional, while Manny certainly could have done better at many things in that area. But you know, he put in far more effort than most people realize. You don't become one of if not the best RH hitter from your generation if you don't try hard, and I'm sure Manny did it. I see some unpretentious nature about them that may rub people wrong, it's a side effect of having a more laid back personality (granted, Manny was a more extrovert character than Bogaerts, but the body language is similar). Your mistakes will get extrapolated and conflated with lack of effort. You'd never call Mookie or Benny lazy, but people might be more willing to do that with Xander. Point is, he isn't IMO as unanimously considered great as other Red Sox greats. I think part of that is that expectations were absurdly high for him, and the fact that he makes stuff look kinda easy and relaxed at the plate. Instead of appreciating Bogaerts, I feel like he's always had this "why isn't he better" stigma about him - sorta like with JD Drew, though Drew's injuries added to that. When someone looks like an MVP-caliber player in the minors and he ends up turning into "just" an All-Star, that colors people's perception. Bogaerts also isn't the natural defender that some others are (especially the ridiculous modern shortstops like Lindor or Simmons), and defensive errors are often written as mental or personality defects rather than a skill deficiency. But yeah, Bogaerts is really, really good and I'm very happy about this deal. It's also tough living in Mookie's shadow. Xander would be THE GUY on many other teams.
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Post by James Dunne on Apr 4, 2019 9:14:49 GMT -5
Would he? He's probably a top-50 player in baseball, but not top-25. I don't think he'd be the best player on any contender. Maybe the Dodgers, who have a lot of value spread out across their roster but no one guy who is The Dude. But... he'd be the second best player on a lot of them! That's sort of getting into the under-appreciated aspect, I think.
He was also like the fourth or fifth best player on the Red Sox last year, which is why the 2018 Red Sox were so incredible.
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Post by fenwaydouble on Apr 4, 2019 11:23:44 GMT -5
He's also just not a particularly flashy player. Above average hitter, but neither a crazy batting average guy nor a huge power threat; good base runner, but doesn't have elite speed; plays a premium defensive position, but is only decent there. JBJ, who Bogaerts is pretty clearly better than, probably gets more love from the fan base as a whole because he's out there robbing home runs.
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Post by m1keyboots on Apr 4, 2019 12:51:53 GMT -5
Bogaerts is divisive among the fanbase? That would mean there are clear groups who think differently completely, about Xander. I thought the groups were "he's fine" and "wish he could have a little more range". I guess I was really wrong lol. If this is the case, then I'm genuinely surprised and would like to know if that's the way it is. This isn't a challenge to you, maybe just because where I live the shortstops are bad on the teams. That's why people like Xander more universally outside of Boston's fanbase? Idk I don't see the passivity we saw from Manny. And we all know no matter how it looks, to play MLB you have to be super focused at shortstop. I can't really remember him making that many errors besides at 3rd, and he showed pretty good body language then, and he was 19 years old I think 20?. Idk. If it's about looking at 3 called strikes I'm not sure what to say apart from sorry you saw that from Manny first. Maybe, you're conflating the two now because of that?. Idk apart from that I don't see many similarities and Manny and Xander. If he is divisive it's a bummer to hear. I guess we should ask him to switch hit Not divisive meaning people think he sucks, but I don't think his greatness is properly appreciated. I'm not arguing something scientific or anything, just stuff I notice from the gameday threads, Red Sox blogs or even this very thread in that you don't have a colossal freakout. Maybe it's because this core has so many great players, but Xander isn't as fiercely lauded as Mookie and to me at least a part of that is due to their difference in personality. Don't take my word for it though, I'm far from an expert and this could be me creating narratives where there isn't one. But I do think he's underrated. Xander is very professional, while Manny certainly could have done better at many things in that area. But you know, he put in far more effort than most people realize. You don't become one of if not the best RH hitter from your generation if you don't try hard, and I'm sure Manny did it. I see some unpretentious nature about them that may rub people wrong, it's a side effect of having a more laid back personality (granted, Manny was a more extrovert character than Bogaerts, but the body language is similar). Your mistakes will get extrapolated and conflated with lack of effort. You'd never call Mookie or Benny lazy, but people might be more willing to do that with Xander. Point is, he isn't IMO as unanimously considered great as other Red Sox greats. Hey if that's the explanation that's what it is. I may have grown up with a different understanding of divisive. Meaning, Xander has divided fans. Xander has divided fans on the definition of "divisive". He's very good. He's not the hitter, baserunner, or fielder that Mookie is, he's not a left-handed college star, like Beni or a gold Glover like JBJ. He brings different things to the table though. 7-9 years ago Xander was BIG NEWS. Someone said something great on MLB Network "you never notice Bogaerts is there at short". It's a good description he doesn't bring attention onto hims. He may not have "lived up to lofty exp." And that could be why some ppl more willing to turn on him? I'll still never understand the Manny-Xander comparison and you'll never find a bigger Manny apologist that me. If you saw XB slump his shoulders, or some sort of body language, then you saw it. I just think that comparison is a reach. It may sound combative but for me he always does the next right thing. I do understand Boston Sports Writers can be babbling, insatiable whiners. So, I can see what you're saying about someone having an issue with Bogaerts. Hopefully everyone sees that first prober story, chuckles at it, and sets it down. Like you (or no if that's the case) I know all about terrible behavior after striking out. Or booting a grounder, maybe airmailing cutoff throws. I haven't seen it once from Bogaerts. Maybe some pitchers, maybe Devers. Maybe Swihart. Edit :for horrendous grammar.
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Post by Don Caballero on Apr 4, 2019 13:01:22 GMT -5
I think part of that is that expectations were absurdly high for him, and the fact that he makes stuff look kinda easy and relaxed at the plate. Instead of appreciating Bogaerts, I feel like he's always had this "why isn't he better" stigma about him - sorta like with JD Drew, though Drew's injuries added to that. When someone looks like an MVP-caliber player in the minors and he ends up turning into "just" an All-Star, that colors people's perception. Bogaerts also isn't the natural defender that some others are (especially the ridiculous modern shortstops like Lindor or Simmons), and defensive errors are often written as mental or personality defects rather than a skill deficiency. But yeah, Bogaerts is really, really good and I'm very happy about this deal. This is a more elegant way of putting my feelings about Xander, he feels like an underachiever despite realistically not being one. He looked like he would be the best at his position when he was coming up and instead he reached a close but not quite threshold. That's indeed more evident on defense, where he's kind of clumsy and lanky so there's also that disconnect from how we expect a shortstop to look.
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Post by iakovos11 on Apr 29, 2019 6:01:05 GMT -5
The player tells Boras what he wants. Xander really wanted to stay in Boston.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 29, 2019 8:00:26 GMT -5
The player tells Boras what he wants. Xander really wanted to stay in Boston. Just another reason to root for and like Xander.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 9, 2019 8:06:36 GMT -5
With people using this last week to bump threads of moves that haven't worked out or might appear even riskier than they did at the time, I think it's fair to note that Xander Bogaerts is hitting .308/.387/.562 as a 26-year-old shortstop and would've gotten himself a whole helluva lot more than 6/$120 hitting free agency this winter. I'd guess something like 7/$200. Thrilled he'll be around awhile longer.
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Post by bnich on Aug 9, 2019 8:43:36 GMT -5
With people using this last week to bump threads of moves that haven't worked out or might appear even riskier than they did at the time, I think it's fair to note that Xander Bogaerts is hitting .308/.387/.562 as a 26-year-old shortstop and would've gotten himself a whole helluva lot more than 6/$120 hitting free agency this winter. I'd guess something like 7/$200. Thrilled he'll be around awhile longer. I agree. A home grown player to boot. Awesome deal for all involved. If the sox were winning more, might his name even enter the MVP discussion? He's having a great season. I remember seeing on TV his avg., ops., and HR's have all increased during the last three seasons. He's just reaching his prime years. Glad he is a Red Sox.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 9, 2019 9:12:11 GMT -5
With people using this last week to bump threads of moves that haven't worked out or might appear even riskier than they did at the time, I think it's fair to note that Xander Bogaerts is hitting .308/.387/.562 as a 26-year-old shortstop and would've gotten himself a whole helluva lot more than 6/$120 hitting free agency this winter. I'd guess something like 7/$200. Thrilled he'll be around awhile longer. I agree. A home grown player to boot. Awesome deal for all involved. If the sox were winning more, might his name even enter the MVP discussion? He's having a great season. I remember seeing on TV his avg., ops., and HR's have all increased during the last three seasons. He's just reaching his prime years. Glad he is a Red Sox. He's pretty clearly the 2nd best player in the AL this year. Doesn't have anything to do with winning more. We should be beyond that by now. Xander can't pitch every game.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 9, 2019 9:25:31 GMT -5
I'd probably have Springer ahead of him too, but yeah there's definitely an argument that Bogaerts is the not-Trout MVP.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 9, 2019 11:02:33 GMT -5
I mean, if Arenado got 7/260 last year, Bogaerts approaches that, right?
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Post by Oregon Norm on Aug 9, 2019 11:56:29 GMT -5
I know there were posters who wondered if he'd tap the promise he showed in the minors. What we forget, I think, is that he's all of 26 years old and just starting into his peak years! The fact the he came up so young is likely what had the board questioning the buzz. No questions now. He's one of the best players in MLB.
The way he can work both sides of the plate as well as up and down should be the stuff of training videos. I watch him lean into that low stuff and lace it down the line, then stay back and smack a pitch on the outside of the plate the other way, and I shake my head. And then there's the upper-cut bombs. He's really become a complete hitter.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 9, 2019 12:05:50 GMT -5
I know there were posters who wondered if he'd tap the promise he showed in the minors. What we forget, I think, is that he's all of 26 years old and just starting into his peak years! The fact the he came up so young is likely what had the board questioning the buzz. No questions now. He's one of the best players in MLB. The way he can work both sides of the plate as well as up and down should be the stuff of training videos. I watch him lean into that low stuff and lace it down the line, then stay back and smack a pitch on the outside of the plate the other way, and I shake my head. And then there's the upper-cut bombs. He's really become a complete hitter. Yep. He has combined the opposite field approach which he was ridiculously successful with in 2015 that completely sapped his power with absolutely destroying every ball inside and in the middle of the plate. It's exactly what we dreamed on and he's doing it.
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