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7/30-8/1 Red Sox vs. Rays Series Thread
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 2, 2019 17:26:09 GMT -5
I hope for the Sox to win every year. I don't expect it to, because you'll be disappointed and angry a lot more often than happy. Even the Yankees didn't win a WS more often than they did. My only baseball dream left is to watch the Sox win the Series with my son. Last year was the perfect chance but my wife put the kibosh on me waking him up at 11pm on a school night. I hope I get that chance. The way I'll look at this season is that the Red Sox are giving me a financial break from paying an obscene amount of money to decorate my shrine room, which between the Red Sox and Patriots, is rapidly running out of space. Pedro, 2019 will recede from the memory pretty quickly. There won't be any 1986, 2003, or 2011 pain attached to it. Yeah, I mean there are years where you can't realistically win. Like in 2015, when you're building to get to that point, but every year they're contending, I expect them to win. To quote my man Tom Brady- "You know which championship I look forward to? The next one." I hope to see a Sox dynasty at some point in my lifetime. After all, the Sox are America's original and first dynasty sports team. It would be fitting from my perspective. If we're talking historic perspective, you kind of ARE seeing a Red Sox dynasty. 4 Championships in this day and age in 15 years is a dynasty. The Red Sox won 5 championships in the first 15 World Series and were screwed out of a chance in repeating in 1904. The last four were clumped together in a 7 year stretch. I think that's what you're expecting? I think the 90s Yankees might be the last baseball dynasty for awhile. The SF Giants did that clump I guess you're looking for - 3 in 5 years? But other than blowing the 2002 World Series, nothing else. Hell even Tom Brady had some time off in his dynasty. This was a true statement in January 2015, as silly as it looks now. At that point it was the Patriots who was the team with the "drought". They had gone nine seasons without winning anything. At that point, the Bruins had won more recently (2011), the Celtics had won more recently (2008), and the Sox had won twice during that time (2007 and 2013). The Patriots were gumming up the works - that is the now 6 time Champion Patriots. If we are talking history, the Red Sox won the 1918 World Series and 100 years ago followed it up with a disappointing season - Babe Ruth set a season HR record with 29 homers, but the team went from Champs to 66-71, sold Carl Mays to the Yankees mid-season, and then for an encore sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees after the season ended. That was far worse than this year - unless the Sox trade Mookie Betts to the Yankees after the season for Austin Romine or something like that! As long as the Sox don't repeat what they did last century it will be good. After all, the Sox have only won championships in the first two decades of the century. It's the other 8 decades they need to do better! Believe it or not, THIS is the Boston sports golden age. Enjoy it for as long as it lasts.
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Post by manfred on Aug 2, 2019 17:44:01 GMT -5
Yeah, I mean there are years where you can't realistically win. Like in 2015, when you're building to get to that point, but every year they're contending, I expect them to win. To quote my man Tom Brady- "You know which championship I look forward to? The next one." I hope to see a Sox dynasty at some point in my lifetime. After all, the Sox are America's original and first dynasty sports team. It would be fitting from my perspective. If we're talking historic perspective, you kind of ARE seeing a Red Sox dynasty. 4 Championships in this day and age in 15 years is a dynasty. The Red Sox won 5 championships in the first 15 World Series and were screwed out of a chance in repeating in 1904. The last four were clumped together in a 7 year stretch. I think that's what you're expecting? I think the 90s Yankees might be the last baseball dynasty for awhile. The SF Giants did that clump I guess you're looking for - 3 in 5 years? But other than blowing the 2002 World Series, nothing else. Hell even Tom Brady had some time off in his dynasty. This was a true statement in January 2015, as silly as it looks now. At that point it was the Patriots who was the team with the "drought". They had gone nine seasons without winning anything. At that point, the Bruins had won more recently (2011), the Celtics had won more recently (2008), and the Sox had won twice during that time (2007 and 2013). The Patriots were gumming up the works - that is the now 6 time Champion Patriots. If we are talking history, the Red Sox won the 1918 World Series and 100 years ago followed it up with a disappointing season - Babe Ruth set a season HR record with 29 homers, but the team went from Champs to 66-71, sold Carl Mays to the Yankees mid-season, and then for an encore sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees after the season ended. That was far worse than this year - unless the Sox trade Mookie Betts to the Yankees after the season for Austin Romine or something like that! As long as the Sox don't repeat what they did last century it will be good. After all, the Sox have only won championships in the first two decades of the century. It's the other 8 decades they need to do better! Believe it or not, THIS is the Boston sports golden age. Enjoy it for as long as it lasts. Blech. Brady and the Patriots are my ideal of what I do NOT want the Sox to be like. Rather they lose 100 a year.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 2, 2019 17:45:08 GMT -5
If we're talking historic perspective, you kind of ARE seeing a Red Sox dynasty. 4 Championships in this day and age in 15 years is a dynasty. The Red Sox won 5 championships in the first 15 World Series and were screwed out of a chance in repeating in 1904. The last four were clumped together in a 7 year stretch. I think that's what you're expecting? I think the 90s Yankees might be the last baseball dynasty for awhile. The SF Giants did that clump I guess you're looking for - 3 in 5 years? But other than blowing the 2002 World Series, nothing else. Hell even Tom Brady had some time off in his dynasty. This was a true statement in January 2015, as silly as it looks now. At that point it was the Patriots who was the team with the "drought". They had gone nine seasons without winning anything. At that point, the Bruins had won more recently (2011), the Celtics had won more recently (2008), and the Sox had won twice during that time (2007 and 2013). The Patriots were gumming up the works - that is the now 6 time Champion Patriots. If we are talking history, the Red Sox won the 1918 World Series and 100 years ago followed it up with a disappointing season - Babe Ruth set a season HR record with 29 homers, but the team went from Champs to 66-71, sold Carl Mays to the Yankees mid-season, and then for an encore sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees after the season ended. That was far worse than this year - unless the Sox trade Mookie Betts to the Yankees after the season for Austin Romine or something like that! As long as the Sox don't repeat what they did last century it will be good. After all, the Sox have only won championships in the first two decades of the century. It's the other 8 decades they need to do better! Believe it or not, THIS is the Boston sports golden age. Enjoy it for as long as it lasts. Blech. Brady and the Patriots are my ideal of what I do NOT want the Sox to be like. Rather they lose 100 a year. Explain.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 2, 2019 17:56:46 GMT -5
Blech. Brady and the Patriots are my ideal of what I do NOT want the Sox to be like. Rather they lose 100 a year. Explain. Or not. We don't need to hear about the importance of the air pressure of a football which is not controlled by the league whatsoever and has never been checked before or since.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 2, 2019 18:03:30 GMT -5
Or not. We don't need to hear about the importance of the air pressure of a football which is not controlled by the league whatsoever and has never been checked before or since. Is that what he's referring to? That stuff was a bunch of nonsense.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 2, 2019 18:08:37 GMT -5
Some thoughts about the losing streak:
Backwards bullpen
The two bullpen mainstays faced an average of 2 batters per game. Barnes faced 4 and Workman never pitched.
The next group, Walden, Taylor, Eovaldi, and Hernandez, faced 6.25 batters per game on average.
The two guys at the bottom of the depth chart averaged 11 batters per game.
Barnes had a .264 xwOBA, par for him. The four in the next group had a .222. The two bottom guys averaged .485.
Yeah, you were behind. But the team wasn't out of these games. You don't automatically go to your worst relievers just because you're trailing.
More on Cora
Biggest game of the season so far. Through 5 innings you've put up a .417 xwOBA and the other guys have a .396, but you trail 4 to 3. Now in the sixth your #5 starter is working through the lineup for the 3rd time, which means you have six guys in the pen who project to be better than him.
The first three batters tee off: .855 (right at Benintend, thank God), 1.172, .752. Why was he still in the game to face Sogard? Why did he stay in the game to walk Zunino?
Is there anyone who doesn't think that's a scoreless inning if Barnes comes in after Aguilar's double > Fenway single? And you have Hernandez, Eovaldi, and Workman all rested and able to work a clean inning.
Speaking of which ...
You know I love me some Evolution. But these things are true of Darwinzon Hernandez
-- He's been a starter almost all of his career. All clean innings. -- He's been a bit wild even in his first inning of work. -- He has little experience pitching in high leverage in MLB. -- Without looking at the numbers, I'm pretty sure he's had extra trouble with teh first batter he's faced in the game.
This absolutely SCREAMS clean-inning guy. He's the guy who allows you to use Barnes as the relief ace.
It seems as if Cora had decided in advance to test him out in high leverage ... why in hell would you do that in circumstances that give the kid the worst possible chance to succeed?
Has anyone else noticed ...
... that the team's hitting in RISP seems to collapse in proportion to the badness of the starting pitching in the game?
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 2, 2019 18:08:48 GMT -5
I guess that's one way of looking at it champs, I guess I share a different perspective. A dynasty even to the casual fan is winning multiple titles in a small window of time.
I still enjoyed a llittle bit of this season. Xander has become the face of the Red Sox this year. The rise of Devers has been special. Still some good takeaways, but the negatives far outweigh the positives and this season has irked me more than most in that regard for me personally. Starting with the front office of this team.
Hope they turn it around!!
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Post by manfred on Aug 2, 2019 18:22:35 GMT -5
Or not. We don't need to hear about the importance of the air pressure of a football which is not controlled by the league whatsoever and has never been checked before or since. Is that what he's referring to? That stuff was a bunch of nonsense. No, I’m talking about what joyless jerks he and Belichick are, how personally revolting I find them, etc etc.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 2, 2019 18:26:54 GMT -5
Is that what he's referring to? That stuff was a bunch of nonsense. No, I’m talking about what joyless jerks he and Belichick are, how personally revolting I find them, etc etc. I don't enjoy Belichick's press conferences but I don't agree with Brady being a joyless jerk - this guy wants to play football forever - it's obvious to me he loves the game, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 3, 2019 23:45:05 GMT -5
I'm elated what John Henry has brought to the Sox. Damn glad he's our owner. Before that the Sox were always chasing their tail. Also seemed to be humiliated often by the Yanks. I can remember at one point listening to WTIC - maybe Arnold Dean hearing about team salaries way back when George used to buy everything- the salary discrepancy between the Yanks and everyone else. The Yanks had something like $180m team salary while the next highest might've been the Sox at $100m. And that type of discrepancy was par for the course.
Now imo because of Henry- our Sox take a backseat to no one. IMO they're smart about trying to keep under the cap at times and be aggressive others. Unfortunately I didn't like the recent Sale signing but that's in part because of Henry. As a fan, I can get greedy now because of Henry. I wanted Sox to wait because I felt confident Henry could go after Cole and show we're the "big dog" that the Yanks used to be. OFC no guarantees but SOx imo are the big dog when in terms of salaries now. They weren't in the "George-era.I" feel real good knowing we have an owner that has a solid, rational head and has shown to be a big spender. The league's big dog spender. It's not my money and I'm happy the guy spends a lot. More than any other team.
Our division is a beast. We're going to have to contend with Yanks and TB for several years. With TB's farm and how they've recently kicked our butt (and the Yanks) damn glad we have an owner willing to shell out big bucks. The SOx do have a huge problem though. They need some starters they can rely on to be 1/2 types. I fear a huge mistake though in Sale. Very concerned with him next year and out. But in regards to Henry -- we're a 4 championship team (best in all mlb over the last 15. It's great knowing we're the best over a 15 year cycle. Never had a shot at that before Henry.) while the two competitors I've mentioned for example in our division-- one TB can't spend shit -- and Yanks have had SP issues the last several years and it's still questionable going forward with the way Houston just maneuvered if not spending or being aggressive like the SOx have been in the past will again make them watch teh World Series on TV instead of playing. The SOx have been living it while the Yanks have been spectators. Never thought the SOx would be this superior in terms of championship performance for this long of a stretch. And that has a lot to to with our owner. If Yanks had Henry -- last year or this year they'd have another high quality starter and would be looking down on payroll vs every other team while being favored to win it all.
The key to Sox next year and several out is getting Starting Pitching that can "perform." This past year isn't on the owner or the bullpen. It's on the super starting pitchers from last year completely tanking this year. In order to be successful vs the Yanks and Rays next year and the next several comes down to Sox ability to have quality SP. Last year was tremendous. This year was junk.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Aug 4, 2019 16:27:18 GMT -5
Irony rules again, Soxjim. A huge chunk of that big Sox spend is on the Rotation, approaching $100M, which is unsustainable while also dramatically under-performing. The on-field team is almost enirely homegrown, and for the most part good decisions were made re: who to trade and who to keep. That’s money plus smarts. And while the Farm may have been depleted by barter (Sale, Pom, Eovaldi as well as Kimbrel, Thornburg, C.Smith), it still holds emerging talent which will keep the Sox contending (Chavis, Marco, Lin, Dalbec, Duran, Darwinzon, Feltman, Mata, Groome, etc).
I too appreciate Henry & Co. They have struck a good balance of spending and profit (not just on players but on the FO, Equipment, Fenway Park and Fenway South as well as creating one of the largest and most comprehensive programs to support the community and charities. An awesome achievement by any standard.
One nit to pick, though. I look forward to winning consistently while NOT having the biggest payroll on the block. Astros, Tampa Bay, Cleveland, Oakland, even the nyfy clearly show that is not the over-arching requirement for success. I disliked George’s nyfy because they bought championships and tried to bully MLB in the process. That is not a reputation the Sox should emulate.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 4, 2019 20:33:50 GMT -5
One nit to pick, though. I look forward to winning consistently while NOT having the biggest payroll on the block. Astros, Tampa Bay, Cleveland, Oakland, even the nyfy clearly show that is not the over-arching requirement for success. I disliked George’s nyfy because they bought championships and tried to bully MLB in the process. That is not a reputation the Sox should emulate. Depends on how you define success other than Houston. Yes Sox don't "need" to be number "1" but I don't agree with your bully analogy. Players deserve money. And if it's my team giving players what they deserve then I'm absolutely fine with it. The issue with George was that every year he was significantly higher than everyone else. However the difference between teh Sox and CUbs/Yanks is $10m. And Houston is overall 6th. And I don't consider Oakland or TB as "success teams." They rarely get to the w/s. And I was fine with our team last year. Not only "fine" but loved every second that we've been overall superior to them over the last 15. We're the success over these lats 15 years -- not the Yanks. As far as the future, I fear we don't have elite starters. Maybe we do. But if we don't-- we can't point to our minor leagues for a star pitcher being brought up in the near term nor do we have "Moncada types" to trade to get a guy like Sale. Then there is no other alternative but to pay in FA. Unfortunately for Oakland and TB -- they can't do much when they run into this situation. I'm grateful Sox can. Our strength is that John Henry can. I'm glad as a fan to know if my team has cap space -- the owner will do what he has to. And further-- regarding Oakland and TB-- I think they are "awful" (I don't mean winning a w/s -- I mean in terms of likeablity) for different reasons that I don't feel I should get into. But I hope in any sport my teams aren't like these two for varied reasons. It's not just because they "don't pay." And I do have respect for teams that pay to some extent.
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Post by gerry on Aug 5, 2019 13:21:02 GMT -5
Under Henry and Co. the Sox went from loveable losers to near dynasty status. Little Beantown has competed well (on the field, as a fanbase, on national TV and media, as a financial powerhouse, as a force for good in New England, even as a tourist attraction) vs the nation’s largest cities.
They rose to national prominence by developing a lovable homegrown core, and loveable, reasonable $$ FA’s (like Napoli, the Flyin’ Hawaiian, Gomes, Moreland, Pearce) not by becoming the top payroll. Henry doesn’t need to replace George as the guy who buys championships. As Cashner recently said “everyone hates the yankees, right?” And they do. I hope we can keep winning without going there. It’s embarrasing, as Champs, to pay soooo much and lose so often, but am very certain this team is jus having a bad year, for a variety of correctable reasons.
I would keep and develop this excellent core, push several interesting prospects, make a couple of smart Rays or A’s style trades, shed some payroll, and reset the luxury tax threshold for 2020. IMO the 2020 Sox, led by Beni, Betts, Bogaerts, Bradley, Brockstar, Chavis, Dalbec, Devers, Marco, Vasquez and a tweaked pitching staff will be back in the hunt. With a high, but not THE top payroll. I think we can also look forward to appearances in 2020 from a number of interesting prospects who could beome part of this core, or even replace core members as they move on.
And fwiw, MLB and its compoents are based in NY, as are most TV and print media, and therefore most national reporters, writers, talking heads and other influencers. Damn Yankees, even Broadway gets into the act. Having top celebrities like Billy Crystal or Spike Lee wearing NY gear on very frequently nationally televised games is the norm. MLB TV programming itself is full of NY and NYers (thank heaven for Millar, the real one five). It’s as though MLB has inevitably, if not intentionally, become the nyfy PR firm. With both baseball and national media basically living next door to each other, how could it be otherwise?? A very savvy new Yorker, the charismatic George, with an aggressive personality some have called bullying, knew how to take advantage of this and did, to benefit his franchise and his bottom line. Henry is, thankfully, neither that type nor does his operation exist in the media and MLB hub that is NY. The Sox and the rest of MLB teams are outsiders looking in on that phenomenon, probably in perpetuity. Henry knows this and has found his own way to compete, despite being temporarily trapped in this payroll cul de sac.
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