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8/8-8/11 Red Sox vs. Angels Series Thread
redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 9, 2019 10:22:44 GMT -5
Why do you think we might lose Workman. According to 40 man roster here he is arb. eligible for one more year. Oh....he's been here since 2013. I thought his service time runs thru 2019. I just checked baseballreference.com and you're right - he's a FA after 2020. Happily I'm wrong.
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Post by Don Caballero on Aug 9, 2019 12:31:09 GMT -5
Sure -- when I see what he does in terms of seasons and not just an occasional start. He doesn't stink. Not sure we couldn;t have spent money better. Maybe one year we'll get "ACE" stuff imo. Imagine being sure that an all timer like Chris Sale is washed up because he's having a down season.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 9, 2019 12:40:48 GMT -5
I mean he's dropped all the way to third in MLB in K% so the only logical conclusion here is that he's toast. Glad he had that one last good start in his damaged, nearly-crippled left arm of his. We shall sing a dirge and send him to sea.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Aug 9, 2019 14:00:01 GMT -5
I like to imagine that the once lively Chris Sale is up on (non denominational) god's airplane slugging beers with Wade Boggs.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 9, 2019 14:17:46 GMT -5
I like to imagine that the once lively Chris Sale is up on (non denominational) god's airplane slugging beers with Wade Boggs. At least Red Sox fans won't have to watch Sale put up about 20 WAR with the Yankees because they let him go after a bad year.
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Aug 9, 2019 14:40:38 GMT -5
It's Porcello's 5th day. The fact that Brian J is starting .... shows the team ain't serious.
Starting in a week, they play 10 games in a 15 day period. They don't need Johnson in the rotation.
Edit: This is wrong. It's Price's 5th day. Johnson plugged into that spot.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 9, 2019 14:46:11 GMT -5
It's Porcello's 5th day. The fact that Brian J is starting .... shows the team ain't serious. I would disagree with this take even if it were factually correct--you don't move a guy up a day on only 24-hour notice--but Porcello pitched Monday.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 9, 2019 14:54:01 GMT -5
Sure -- when I see what he does in terms of seasons and not just an occasional start. He doesn't stink. Not sure we couldn;t have spent money better. Maybe one year we'll get "ACE" stuff imo. You mean like they've gotten every year except this one? WTF is this hot take? 5 years, $25.6 million AAV, barely more than Porcello. Who replaces Chris Sale on a better deal? What? I don't understand. Are you bringing up prior years? And how does Porcello have anything to do with this? Third-- in terms of "value" Was Price worth it considering we're paying what we are? I'd say yes to this point. Winning the championship sort of trumps a lot. But how is his "value?" don't teams like Tampa Bay and Oakland have super value player to player vs say Houston? How has the Red Sox value been over the past 3 years? In other words-- I am not arguing -- i just read a lot about "value" -- and ofc it is important -- but it is also better to pay in excess of value if you can if it gets you championships and consistent playoff appearances with some runs, isn't it? I am not arguing -- but am I wrong to think that the Sox are one of the beasts in MLB in terms of paying so it is okay to wait and pay in excess of value (in this case should've waited on Sale after this year after he exhibited arm issues last year and how we have been told for a long time to be wary of pitchers that have violent deliveries like Sale. At least I read this on here when the Sale trade was made that there is concern for pitchers like him. )? If you have violent delivery and you had recent arm issues how can it be justified paying so much? The claim of "what else we are going to do"-- all-the-while knowing paying for a guy wiht arm issues teh year prior isn't the way to go for imo for a team that can afford ot wait and pay extra. Is this wrong? Fourth- you asked who replaces Sale? For me it would be Cole. Juts like we didn't "win" in "value" with Price -- the Sox shouldn't be concerned on "winning in value" with an ACE. IMO it is better to to lose value but get the ACE than pay $25m plus and get a 3 type starter. Or worse later on. I fear we are going to get maybe one more top year from Sale. After that he wil no longer be ACE caliber. OS there would be a lot we can do to get that type of value for $25m, isn't there? Not arguing. Just wondering where any including you thinks where I'm going wrong. I don't care about "Porcello." Nor do I buy "well we had to do it.' Unless "we had to do it" because he is going to be an ACE you think or a number 2 for a few years? Because if you don't think that-- then why did we have to do it when we can pay huge bucks and go after a real ACE such as Cole in the offseason? Sure we can get overbid but paying for a guy that has arm issues seems like poor justification to take on such risk when you have the ability to overpay for an ACE.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 9, 2019 15:24:29 GMT -5
So, Ock/Travis platoon at first next year? That's highly risky, but highly inexpensive. It'll probably see a lot of Chavis too, unless he's dealt. Sam Travis is on a nice run, but after seeing him stumble for years at Pawtucket, how can the Sox be sure of him giving you anything guarenteed past this nice run? Like how can you guarentee him a bench spot? He'll be here in spring training, for sure. A platoon first baseman that specializes in hitting LHP now it seems? I mean that's okay, but nothing to pencil in I'd think. He has 2 more months to prove himself here too. I have a feeling Chavis goes to 2b. The chance Pedroia comes back is probably 2% or less. I’m pretty certain he’s going to retire this offseason. He strikes me as a person with integrity, and I don’t think he would be comfortable collecting his check knowing he’s not on the field. Maybe they work a FO/coaching/managing position out. Then again, the contract is guaranteed, soooo... Regardless, the surgery he just had isn’t a “get back to playing” surgery, it’s a “be able to walk without total knee replacement” surgery. The question of Travis/Ockimey vs an offseason addition is a good one. Whoever they put there is going to be short-term because Casas probably isn’t TOO far off (maybe 2-3 years?). And they need money to pay other players at other positions. Tbh, getting Martinez more comfortable there might be useful. Idk about Travis long-term, since as you say, he’s been worse than a AAAA player...but it’s possible he’s unlocked something. It would be a huge help if he has and can be a 0.5-1.5 WAR player in limited time (300-400 PA). Ockimey has big, big power and gets lots of walks, but should never hit vs LHP in MLB, and even as a strict platoon you’ve gotta wonder if he can put up a .220/.320/.450 or so slash that would make his bad defense marginally tolerable, just to save $5-10M. This offseason is going to be a strange one. I’m really curious to see how they approach their increasing holes despite the salary crunch.
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Post by telson13 on Aug 9, 2019 15:59:14 GMT -5
You mean like they've gotten every year except this one? WTF is this hot take? 5 years, $25.6 million AAV, barely more than Porcello. Who replaces Chris Sale on a better deal? What? I don't understand. Are you bringing up prior years? And how does Porcello have anything to do with this? Third-- in terms of "value" Was Price worth it considering we're paying what we are? I'd say yes to this point. Winning the championship sort of trumps a lot. But how is his "value?" don't teams like Tampa Bay and Oakland have super value player to player vs say Houston? How has the Red Sox value been over the past 3 years? In other words-- I am not arguing -- i just read a lot about "value" -- and ofc it is important -- but it is also better to pay in excess of value if you can if it gets you championships and consistent playoff appearances with some runs, isn't it? I am not arguing -- but am I wrong to think that the Sox are one of the beasts in MLB in terms of paying so it is okay to wait and pay in excess of value (in this case should've waited on Sale after this year after he exhibited arm issues last year and how we have been told for a long time to be wary of pitchers that have violent deliveries like Sale. At least I read this on here when the Sale trade was made that there is concern for pitchers like him. )? If you have violent delivery and you had recent arm issues how can it be justified paying so much? The claim of "what else we are going to do"-- all-the-while knowing paying for a guy wiht arm issues teh year prior isn't the way to go for imo for a team that can afford ot wait and pay extra. Is this wrong? Fourth- you asked who replaces Sale? For me it would be Cole. Juts like we didn't "win" in "value" with Price -- the Sox shouldn't be concerned on "winning in value" with an ACE. IMO it is better to to lose value but get the ACE than pay $25m plus and get a 3 type starter. Or worse later on. I fear we are going to get maybe one more top year from Sale. After that he wil no longer be ACE caliber. OS there would be a lot we can do to get that type of value for $25m, isn't there? Not arguing. Just wondering where any including you thinks where I'm going wrong. I don't care about "Porcello." Nor do I buy "well we had to do it.' Unless "we had to do it" because he is going to be an ACE you think or a number 2 for a few years? Because if you don't think that-- then why did we have to do it when we can pay huge bucks and go after a real ACE such as Cole in the offseason? Sure we can get overbid but paying for a guy that has arm issues seems like poor justification to take on such risk when you have the ability to overpay for an ACE. Gerrit Cole is a year and a half younger than Sale. He’s been a significantly less successful pitcher over his career. He’s also had injury problems, although like Sale they’ve been relatively minor (but still missing significant chunks of two seasons). The Sox got fairly good deal on Sale in terms of both years and AAV specifically because he’d had an injury. He’s getting paid a lot like Patrick Corbin, a few million more per year, but Sale has a far better track record and peak, and doesn’t have a TJ (like DeGrom does as well). Sale has his warts, but they’re largely obscured by his awesomeness. He’s having a down year, but his FIP and xFIP are both quite good, and inconsistency seems to be his real issue. The stuff is still there. I’m not sure there’s much, if anything, to suggest that Cole is destined to be a better pitcher over the next five years. Cole’s ascendancy into league elite coincided with his going to Houston, a team renowned for their analytical ability to optimize pitchers by tinkering with their repertoire/pitch frequencies/sequencing. I’m not entirely convinced Cole will be as good elsewhere. And don’t get me wrong, because I think Cole is terrific. But he’s liable to command a Price-like deal. And he could very easily be worse in Fenway than he is in Houston. ALL pitchers are injury risks; that the Sox paid Sale suggests a certain level of comfort with his issues last year and tells me they don’t expect them to linger. I’m as disappointed as anyone in his year this season, but I don’t see any specific evidence to suggest that it’s the beginning of the end, beyond simple aging. In my opinion, Sale is as good a bet as any pitcher out there to be an “ace” moving forward (ie, perennial Cy Young contender). Kershaw has lost velocity and SL effectiveness, Scherzer is getting up there (as is Verlander), DeGrom is the same age and has a TJ in his past, Kluber is getting older and has had injuries, Cole doesn’t have quite the track record length-wise of those guys nor the peak, and has reached his new level with a team terrific at unlocking pitcher performance. When you factor in 1) the team’s familiarity with his medicals, 2) his success in Boston and fit in the clubhouse, and 3) his relative youth to his peers (the pitchers listed above)and willingness to sign a deal that likely won’t include his real decline phase, and I honestly don’t see a better option, Cole included.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 9, 2019 16:17:40 GMT -5
No way. Not sold on either being capable hitters in the MLB. Castellanos seems to kill lefties. The Tigers didnt give him much run ,if any, run at 1st base. He might be a good add as a DH/1st base platoon. Those hit, no position type of players have found rough sledding in free agency. He might not cost a lot. Really interesting if JD does opt out. Something tells me that the Jays will be all over Castellanos. They want to build around Guerrero, Gurriel, and Bichette. I have a feeling that even though the fit isn't the best (Guerrero also seems like a 1B or DH), they will want him because of the bat and his young age. The Jays have virtually no money committed past 2019. That offense would look really good with another piece or two.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 9, 2019 16:21:21 GMT -5
You mean like they've gotten every year except this one? WTF is this hot take? 5 years, $25.6 million AAV, barely more than Porcello. Who replaces Chris Sale on a better deal? What? I don't understand. Are you bringing up prior years? And how does Porcello have anything to do with this? Third-- in terms of "value" Was Price worth it considering we're paying what we are? I'd say yes to this point. Winning the championship sort of trumps a lot. But how is his "value?" don't teams like Tampa Bay and Oakland have super value player to player vs say Houston? How has the Red Sox value been over the past 3 years? In other words-- I am not arguing -- i just read a lot about "value" -- and ofc it is important -- but it is also better to pay in excess of value if you can if it gets you championships and consistent playoff appearances with some runs, isn't it? I am not arguing -- but am I wrong to think that the Sox are one of the beasts in MLB in terms of paying so it is okay to wait and pay in excess of value (in this case should've waited on Sale after this year after he exhibited arm issues last year and how we have been told for a long time to be wary of pitchers that have violent deliveries like Sale. At least I read this on here when the Sale trade was made that there is concern for pitchers like him. )? If you have violent delivery and you had recent arm issues how can it be justified paying so much? The claim of "what else we are going to do"-- all-the-while knowing paying for a guy wiht arm issues teh year prior isn't the way to go for imo for a team that can afford ot wait and pay extra. Is this wrong? Fourth- you asked who replaces Sale? For me it would be Cole. Juts like we didn't "win" in "value" with Price -- the Sox shouldn't be concerned on "winning in value" with an ACE. IMO it is better to to lose value but get the ACE than pay $25m plus and get a 3 type starter. Or worse later on. I fear we are going to get maybe one more top year from Sale. After that he wil no longer be ACE caliber. OS there would be a lot we can do to get that type of value for $25m, isn't there? Not arguing. Just wondering where any including you thinks where I'm going wrong. I don't care about "Porcello." Nor do I buy "well we had to do it.' Unless "we had to do it" because he is going to be an ACE you think or a number 2 for a few years? Because if you don't think that-- then why did we have to do it when we can pay huge bucks and go after a real ACE such as Cole in the offseason? Sure we can get overbid but paying for a guy that has arm issues seems like poor justification to take on such risk when you have the ability to overpay for an ACE. I brought up prior years because you said "Maybe one year we'll get "ACE" stuff" and we've gotten plenty of ACE stuff from him. I'd bet money on Cole being worse than Sale moving forward and also way more expensive with a longer contract. You cannot just evaluate players on a large handful of starts when they're likely Hall of Fame pitchers. Bounce backs are likely. Sale's contract is so freaking cheap it's ridiculous for a pitcher of his caliber. I brought up Porcello because he only makes $4M per season less than Sale will. Cole: 2.87 ERA, 3.11 FIP, 2.81 xFIP, 12.98 K/9, 2.24 BB/9, LOB% 81.6%, BABIP .279, xwOBA .257 (.292 for his career) Sale: 4.41 ERA, 3.35 FIP, 2.97 xFIP, 13.18 K/9, 2.24 BB/9, LOB% 67.3%, BABIP .312, xwOBA .284 (.271 for his career) And this is in Sale's worst season, while it's Cole's best by far. That LOB% is extremely poor for Sale and extremely too good for Cole, so regression for both of them is a sure thing. Also, you are not considering what moving Cole to the AL East would do to him. Pitching extra games in Yankee Stadium instead of Oakland means something more than you get to see with even league adjusted stats.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 9, 2019 16:22:20 GMT -5
I like to imagine that the once lively Chris Sale is up on (non denominational) god's airplane slugging beers with Wade Boggs. At least Red Sox fans won't have to watch Sale put up about 20 WAR with the Yankees because they let him go after a bad year. Yeah. Chris Sale would have been target number one of the Yankees. Said it all this past off-season. It's either the Sox paid him, or the Yankees would pay him. It would make me sick to my stomach to watch Chris Sale walk just so he can dominate the Sox time and time again.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 9, 2019 16:29:25 GMT -5
That's highly risky, but highly inexpensive. It'll probably see a lot of Chavis too, unless he's dealt. Sam Travis is on a nice run, but after seeing him stumble for years at Pawtucket, how can the Sox be sure of him giving you anything guarenteed past this nice run? Like how can you guarentee him a bench spot? He'll be here in spring training, for sure. A platoon first baseman that specializes in hitting LHP now it seems? I mean that's okay, but nothing to pencil in I'd think. He has 2 more months to prove himself here too. I have a feeling Chavis goes to 2b. The chance Pedroia comes back is probably 2% or less. I’m pretty certain he’s going to retire this offseason. He strikes me as a person with integrity, and I don’t think he would be comfortable collecting his check knowing he’s not on the field. Maybe they work a FO/coaching/managing position out. Then again, the contract is guaranteed, soooo... Regardless, the surgery he just had isn’t a “get back to playing” surgery, it’s a “be able to walk without total knee replacement” surgery. The question of Travis/Ockimey vs an offseason addition is a good one. Whoever they put there is going to be short-term because Casas probably isn’t TOO far off (maybe 2-3 years?). And they need money to pay other players at other positions. Tbh, getting Martinez more comfortable there might be useful. Idk about Travis long-term, since as you say, he’s been worse than a AAAA player...but it’s possible he’s unlocked something. It would be a huge help if he has and can be a 0.5-1.5 WAR player in limited time (300-400 PA). Ockimey has big, big power and gets lots of walks, but should never hit vs LHP in MLB, and even as a strict platoon you’ve gotta wonder if he can put up a .220/.320/.450 or so slash that would make his bad defense marginally tolerable, just to save $5-10M. This offseason is going to be a strange one. I’m really curious to see how they approach their increasing holes despite the salary crunch. Yeah the reason why I see Chavis playing a lot of first base is because of Marco Hernandez. Marco is more of a guy that has more of a chance to hit in the big leagues at a acceptable level than Ockimey. Travis could supposedly fit in against LHP if Chavis goes to second base. Still, even that's a little risky even though I like Marco a lot.
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Post by jimed14 on Aug 9, 2019 17:01:06 GMT -5
I really like Marco, but having zero walks isn't going to likely lead to a sustainable career. He hits pretty damn well and should hit for average, but with that lack of walking his ceiling might be a better defending Nunez. At least he's on the better side for platooning.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 9, 2019 17:29:35 GMT -5
I really like Marco, but having zero walks isn't going to likely lead to a sustainable career. He hits pretty damn well and should hit for average, but with that lack of walking his ceiling might be a better defending Nunez. At least he's on the better side for platooning. Yep, Ockimey is a base clogger who can't hit and walks. Marco is a speedster who doesn't walk a lot, and does hit. Two imperfect options to try and get away with for next year.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 9, 2019 17:40:28 GMT -5
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 17:46:46 GMT -5
and they should. I doubt anything gets done, but all options should be on the table, for any player, not named Mike Trout.
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Post by cheers on Aug 9, 2019 17:48:19 GMT -5
Mea culpa/apologies to the board - I was in Boston for most of the skid. Any reasonable scientist would draw a direct correlation between my proximity and the Sox complete inability to play non-putrid baseball. I mean really, what else could it be?
I'm back out west, so everything should be fine now. Wild card here we come. Brian Johnson is now an all-star.
Tougher science: If I'm actually IN the ballpark (Monday), that seems to be different. Edit: Oh wait, they were pretty putrid that night too, despite the win.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 17:49:45 GMT -5
Long week boys......5.5 games back of WC2. Let's hope we are 4 back by the end of the weekend.
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Post by coachmac on Aug 9, 2019 17:54:27 GMT -5
The article actually says may and there were no Red Sox sources quoted. The sources were other MLB execs who believe the Sox may listen. Your pronouncement may be correct just not supported by that article
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 9, 2019 18:05:26 GMT -5
The article actually says may and there were no Red Sox sources quoted. The sources were other MLB execs who believe the Sox may listen. Your pronouncement may be correct just not supported by that article Can MLB executives legally take calls on trades after the deadline? Honest question. I don't normally hear of GMs taking calls after the deadline is over.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 18:19:55 GMT -5
Good Lord these umps are bad.
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cutz
Veteran
Posts: 2,321
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Post by cutz on Aug 9, 2019 18:21:28 GMT -5
How does a Major League Ump miss that?
You can tell by Upton's reaction that he knew it was a strike.
AND LOOK WHAT HAPPENS!!!!!!
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 9, 2019 18:21:42 GMT -5
what a bunch of........I am so mad right now.
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