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Post by caseytins on Aug 20, 2019 21:33:51 GMT -5
I am afraid the Red Sox could turn into the future Tigers. Seriously, we need to evaluate how long this guy should make decisions.
At the very least, a thread needs to be opened to discuss this.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 20, 2019 21:49:23 GMT -5
I am afraid the Red Sox could turn into the future Tigers. Seriously, we need to evaluate how long this guy should make decisions. The real issue with the Red Sox is that the farm system hasn't been producing starting pitchers for a long time and that their run of all-star caliber position players has come to an end. Chavis and Dalbec are the best the system has to offer and they might not be much more than second division regulars. There's no future Mookies, Devers, Xanders, or Benintendis in the system. There is no starting pitching prospect which is a sure thing. The three hopefuls, Mata, Groome, and Song have yet to succeed above A ball. The other hopefuls, Houck and Hernandez, are likely relievers. This happens when a team has three straight first place finishes and picks near the bottom of the draft. Other than the Shaw deal (and Shaw is now struggling in Milwaukee) none of the trades have really backfired on the Sox. The Sox got what they wanted out of the Sale, Kimbrel, Pearce, and Eovaldi trades. I don't think there's any regret even though Moncada is now starting to blossom. You can argue they shouldn't have re-signed Sale, Eovaldi, and Pearce, but I don't think those signings were egregious. They gambled on Sale's health figuring the deal they signed was a bargain if Sale produced another 2018 season - there was no reason to think he wouldn't be an effective pitcher. Eovaldi made sense as a lower cost starter who was potentially turning the corner. The best alternative was Morton who didn't look as good as Eovaldi did during the post-season as he (Morton) was coming off an injury. Pearce seemed like the best option for the RH hitting 1b bat they needed as it wasn't known if Chavis would be ready for the majors this season. I didn't agree with the Sox not hedging their bets in the pen, but as others have pointed out a lot of the bullpen guys other teams signed have been disappointments. Dombrowski might lose his job, but I'm not sure he deserves to. I think the Red Sox have had a couple of decent to good drafts recently which is helpful and have added some international talent...the problem is I don't know were the Sox rank versus other teams in those categories over the past couple of years. I only know that their farm system is rated toward the bottom and it's not hard to see how or why. In a way, I think the Red Sox are having problems because they have been so successful. The drafting is leveling the playing field. I'd like to think that's the complete reason but I see the Yankees remaining consistent despite their success (fortunately they haven't had the ultimate success - yet). I think whoever else would take over the GM spot will run into issues with elite players needing to be paid to remain and if you sign them you risk bad contracts but if you don't sign them it's hard to replace their production, especially when it's not coming from the farm any longer for the reasons specified.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 20, 2019 21:54:34 GMT -5
Maybe I'm a bit of a fanboy because I liked Theo, Cherington and Dombrowski.
With that said, what has Dombrowski failed at? Everyone wanted him to come in and acquire talent with the assets they had. He did that. In return they've won 3 division titles, had a 100+ win season (which hasn't been done since the 30s I think?) And won a WS. Now, after asking him to cash all of his chips we're asking why he doesn't have any more and demanding they replace him to refill the coffers. It's really, really hard to build a farm when you're demanding he trades every prospect to acquire talent. Which trade did a prospect really come back to haunt him? He's really nailed most of his deals. The bullpen has actually been marvelous since the deadline. Most of the available arms in the off-season and the trade deadline have been awful for the acquiring teams. The prospect ranking went from 30th to 22nd. His drafts haven't been the best to date.
He's the same guy who won with Miami, blew away the team and when he was gone, his acquired core won another.
Then he went to the Tigers and blew out their system because he was asked to by a dying owner. They were a David Ortiz blast away from going to I think a second WS in which they were the superior team. He got dangerously close to winning.
Then he came here and won doing what the fans and ownership wanted and somehow he's at fault for that.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 20, 2019 22:08:11 GMT -5
I am afraid the Red Sox could turn into the future Tigers. Seriously, we need to evaluate how long this guy should make decisions. At the very least, a thread needs to be opened to discuss this. ? The Red Sox won a championship last year-- how are they the Tigers? No matter what happens the Red Sox surpassed the Tigers. Or doesn't championships count? The easiest thing to do is always look at things half-empty. Every team sooner or later tanks ot a degree. Are we going to whine about the Sox and forget about 4 titles in 15 years?
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 20, 2019 22:14:07 GMT -5
I am afraid the Red Sox could turn into the future Tigers. Seriously, we need to evaluate how long this guy should make decisions. At the very least, a thread needs to be opened to discuss this. ? The Red Sox won a championship last year-- how are they the Tigers? No matter what happens the Red Sox surpassed the Tigers. Or doesn't championships count? The easiest thing to do is always look at things half-empty. Every team sooner or later tanks ot a degree. Are we going to whine about the Sox and forget about 4 titles in 15 years? Honestly it still surprises me that the Tigers were swept in the 2012 World Series by the Giants. I thought that series was a mismatch in favor of the Tigers - kind of like how the 1990 A's should have killed the Reds, but instead got swept by them. The best a GM can do is to build his team so that they're favored to win - he can't actually make them win in the post-season. Dombrowski had his Tigers team positioned in 2012 and in 2013 it was kind of amazing how the Red Sox just found ways to win. The only slap I would say against Dombrowski was that there were instances where his bench was quite weak as was the case with the 2013 Tigers (or like this year's Sox team).
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danr
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Post by danr on Aug 20, 2019 22:34:10 GMT -5
Why is it that the MFYs have had such a productive farm system and the Sox have not? I mean by this that the Yankees have been able to make key trades, using some of their minor leaguers, but have not destroyed their system. The Yankees usually draft at the bottom of the pack but they manage to get outstanding players. I am a little suspicious of the quality of the Sox drafting team and have been for quite a few years.
I think Dombrowski has done a very good job with the Sox and will not be fired. He should have strengthened the BP during the offseason but it probably would not have made much of a difference. The starting pitching is horrible, but that could not have been anticipated and it is not Dombrowski's fault. His drafts seem to be better than some that preceded him, but the scouting system of the Sox probably should be revamped.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 20, 2019 22:35:06 GMT -5
? The Red Sox won a championship last year-- how are they the Tigers? No matter what happens the Red Sox surpassed the Tigers. Or doesn't championships count? The easiest thing to do is always look at things half-empty. Every team sooner or later tanks ot a degree. Are we going to whine about the Sox and forget about 4 titles in 15 years? Honestly it still surprises me that the Tigers were swept in the 2012 World Series by the Giants. I thought that series was a mismatch in favor of the Tigers - kind of like how the 1990 A's should have killed the Reds, but instead got swept by them. The best a GM can do is to build his team so that they're favored to win - he can't actually make them win in the post-season. Dombrowski had his Tigers team positioned in 2012 and in 2013 it was kind of amazing how the Red Sox just found ways to win. The only slap I would say against Dombrowski was that there were instances where his bench was quite weak as was the case with the 2013 Tigers (or like this year's Sox team). Every one of the 4 titles the SOx were "on the brink." But how amazing is it-- instead of being the Yankees punching bag for so long. Now in last 15 years we've won 4 and they've won 1.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 20, 2019 22:55:35 GMT -5
Whether we like or don't like DD, don't underestimate the impact and shock of this season on Sox mgt - big payroll, most of the same players as last year, significant underperforming - and with a big payroll we are likely to miss the playoffs. DD may stay, or he may end up being the sacrificial lamb.
I am neutral to slightly positive about him, but I think he misfired on the trade deadline interview - he said some pretty shocking things, I thought, though I don't think he is totally tone deaf. Sure, we are spoiled, we've had tons of recent success. But fans are fans, and this year will nick ratings and there will be efforts to right the ship quickly - that's a big market team - that's the reality of the Sox.
Cora really has as much if not more responsibility for the poor team performance than DD (and the players, of course).
Offseason will be simply fascinating to observe.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 21, 2019 2:24:57 GMT -5
I just think this year is a perfect example of how the owners control DD. The orders going from win at a high cost to we want to win, but we have limits now. Still 100% believe no major trades at deadline was driven by the owners. Like DD with win at all costs like in Detroit goes out and gets a top starter, gets some bullpen arms, etc. So I wouldn't worry about us becoming Detroit, our owner won't allow it. The Detroit owner was an animal, he went all in, spending like 80% plus of revenue on payroll. The guy basically set payroll at break even point to win at all costs. He didn't care who he traded away and gave out contracts to everyone on a record level. He'd give Betts more than Trout just to sign him long-term. That isn't Henry and overall that's likely a good thing. I wish Henry would go all in a little more, but you don't want to go all in for long stretches either.
You can certainly fault DD this year, yet unlike last year not everything has gone just right. With the payroll he was given, how does he overcome what has happened this year? Like no Eovaldi and bullpen help doesn't fix Sale, Price and Porcello. He would have had to been perfect on the free agent market picking up every single of the guys having good years. If it was just the bullpen I'd fully blame him, yet the rotation has fallen a part. He gets the blame for Eovaldi, that isn't a surprise. Yet almost every pitcher is pitching worse this year, no one could have predicted that. It's Baseball and this happens, nevermind it sucks the American league is so strong this year. We'd be right in the National League race.
No team will continue to turn out tons of top five prospects that become very good high end players year after year. Certainly not a team in win now mode that can't sell off players for prospects. A large part of the Yankees restocking that system was that one epic trade deadline. Nevermind things have changed, no extra picks for losing top free agents, I don't think a 4th round pick is much at all for us. International pools are now set and we once again get less money like in the draft for winning games. Never been harder to get talent, all the loop holes are gone. Tons of the Yankees talent was also brought in when they did that crazy international spending year, those days are gone. Overall I think DD has done a rather good job bringing in talent. You want the owners to rebuild the system on the fly, get Henry to open his check book and do the blow up the draft theory. Asking DD to produce a top flight farm system given where we normally pick and the money we have is asking him to be the best of the best. He doesn't have the tools or resources Theo and Ben had, not even close.
So if you want DD long term is really what do you want? To keep trying to win year after year, ride out the great young players we have? Have DD try and keep plugging the holes or have bridge years and maybe trade a guy like Betts or some one else and retool? You kinda have to pick, because while I'd love to keep going for it and winning, while building a top farm system that is a crazy tall order in today's Baseball climate. The two will just keep clashing and it makes both that much harder.
I vote to keep DD, he's not perfect, but he's darn good. Go for it with this core. Yet if our owner is going to stop spending and reset the tax maybe you move on. Just seems like a very foolish time to take that approach.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 21, 2019 4:11:26 GMT -5
Dombrowski has done what he was brought here to do since he got here, maximize with the current core of young players Ben Cherrington elected to keep.
It worked. He was flawless last year with every move. How can a roster be maximized more than 2018?
In essence, his purpose has been served.
Moving forward, I do think the direction of maximizing this roster (the thing he's most commonly known for while GMing), would be a mistake.
This team has now multiple positions to fill. The starting rotation is a major uncertainty moving forward and has one spot open (plus they need starting pitching depth). The bullpen needs like 2 key additions. 2nd base could be a problem. First base could be a problem. You have 2 outfielders up for contract soon, and it's highly questionable at best that they keep either one of them long-term.
GMing for the Sox is going to be hard, like really difficult moving forward. The Sox have multiple holes to fill and you probably need to get creative to fill them. Dombrowski in his time as a GM in the Sox has been "see guy, go get guy." No creativity there. Maybe he could shock me and flip it around and be that guy, but I have my doubts about it, even despite his experience in the league.
The Sox are more likely than not are about to enter a reshifting or retooling phase. I don't think Dombrowski would even want to be part of something like that. I could see him leaving once his contract is up and join some other big market team ready to win soon. He does have full control here though, and that's probably the one thing that might keep him from leaving, however.
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Post by soxinnj on Aug 21, 2019 5:57:07 GMT -5
Why is it that the MFYs have had such a productive farm system and the Sox have not? I mean by this that the Yankees have been able to make key trades, using some of their minor leaguers, but have not destroyed their system. The Yankees usually draft at the bottom of the pack but they manage to get outstanding players. I am a little suspicious of the quality of the Sox drafting team and have been for quite a few years. I think Dombrowski has done a very good job with the Sox and will not be fired. He should have strengthened the BP during the offseason but it probably would not have made much of a difference. The starting pitching is horrible, but that could not have been anticipated and it is not Dombrowski's fault. His drafts seem to be better than some that preceded him, but the scouting system of the Sox probably should be revamped. The Yankees were also able to get key pieces for their farm through deadline trades when they tanked (Torres, German, etc) which has helped it tremendously as well as finding trade partners who Cashman was able to rip off when trading minor leaguers.
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Post by jbsox on Aug 21, 2019 6:37:30 GMT -5
I’m fine with continuing with DD.
He has an eye for dealing the right prospects, dealing from surplus, and keeping the right ones (Devers, Benitendi ect).
Rehashing last offseason it turned out to be the right move to not overpay for a reliever in the free agent market as most of them have had bad years. We’ve had great bargain finds the past couple years like Walden and Braiser, and we ended up with a top 5-10 bullpen in baseball. I was fine with the Sale extension. In baseball there is more inherent risks than say basketball with contracts as you can have a wider variance in performance from year to year. With such a high payroll you are more likely to have contracts that aren’t so great but you have to be willing to take a risk as long as you don’t do something stupid like a Sandoval, and I think Sale will bounce back fine.
This offseason with money coming off the books and factoring in raises, I think we’ll roughly have 25 to 30 mil to play with if we are willing to bump up against the 3rd tax line again. I don’t think we need an overhaul, and hope we sign core guys like Betts and Erod to extensions. What I do hope for is to use that money mostly for a really good starting pitcher, or maybe 2 of them (one being a buy low candidate). If you scan the starting pitcher free agent market it’s pretty solid through the first 20 or so guys. Get the upgrade over Porcello (or maybe Porcello is the 2nd buy low candidate), and I think we are right back in business. What really hurt us this year was obviously Sale going through his down performances, Eovaldi being out a long time, Porcello not as good, and the flotsam of 5th starters we were throwing out there being terrible(not having Johnson or Wright hurt).
So solidify the starting pitching, and by the time some of these contracts come off the books Mata, Groome, Song may be ready to have cheap pitching to augment other big contracts due up like Devers. Houck and Hernandez seem more relievers than starters at this point, but maybe they are the next era of Barnes and Workman of this year.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Aug 21, 2019 7:51:53 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 21, 2019 10:50:40 GMT -5
What's the going rate for a guy like Porcello? 10 to 12 million on a one year deal? Do you give him a qualifying offer of around 18 million? I wouldn't mind a one year deal and he does this stupid good than bad every other year thing. At the minimum it gives you innings and that isn't a bad thing given the rotation. Add a few more 6th starter types. I'd love to target a young guy that is struggling.
I'd move on from Bradley. Not a horrible player, but he's so streaky it kills the team for long stretches. At the very least you need a true platoon guy for when he's bad, which is like half the season.
Sign a low priced veteran to compete with Travis and Dalbec.
Bring in a proven closer and it doesn't have to be an truly elite guy. Then another veteran or two on the cheap.
Unless your going to blow up the team, next year is really all on Sale, Price, ERod, and Eovaldi. They have to be better, I don't care who the GM is. You can over come and prepare for one to be bad or injured, but not three of them in one season. Hence fixing our pitching isn't an easy thing to do.
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Post by soxfan511 on Aug 21, 2019 11:43:28 GMT -5
Dombrowski is a way better gm than Cherington. Hang on to him
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 21, 2019 13:46:29 GMT -5
Dombrowski is a way better gm than Cherington. Hang on to him Tough call honestly. They both have a ring and the work Cherington did allowed Dombrowski to make the moves that he was capable of making to win his.
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Dombrowski
Aug 21, 2019 13:50:15 GMT -5
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 21, 2019 13:50:15 GMT -5
What's the going rate for a guy like Porcello? 10 to 12 million on a one year deal? Do you give him a qualifying offer of around 18 million? I wouldn't mind a one year deal and he does this stupid good than bad every other year thing. At the minimum it gives you innings and that isn't a bad thing given the rotation. Add a few more 6th starter types. I'd love to target a young guy that is struggling. I'd move on from Bradley. Not a horrible player, but he's so streaky it kills the team for long stretches. At the very least you need a true platoon guy for when he's bad, which is like half the season. Sign a low priced veteran to compete with Travis and Dalbec. Bring in a proven closer and it doesn't have to be an truly elite guy. Then another veteran or two on the cheap. Unless your going to blow up the team, next year is really all on Sale, Price, ERod, and Eovaldi. They have to be better, I don't care who the GM is. You can over come and prepare for one to be bad or injured, but not three of them in one season. Hence fixing our pitching isn't an easy thing to do. JBJ is just having a bad year in general outside of May and a scorching hot June. He's got an OK OPS in August, but that's because on the rare times he does connect, it goes a long way .212/.300/.481/.781 with 4 HR in 16 games.
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Dombrowski
Aug 21, 2019 17:32:46 GMT -5
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Post by soxfan511 on Aug 21, 2019 17:32:46 GMT -5
Dombrowski is a way better gm than Cherington. Hang on to him Tough call honestly. They both have a ring and the work Cherington did allowed Dombrowski to make the moves that he was capable of making to win his. I don’t think it’s a tough call. Cherrington was god awful and got fired for a reason. We went from first to last in back to back years and he was the entire reason. He gave one of the worst contracts of all time to Sandoval, another awful contract to Rusney despite the red flags, gave a bad contract to Hanley, allowed Lester to leave, got a disgustingly bad haul back for lackey whom we could have gotten top prospects for instead of a physically washed up major leaguer. Drafted Trey Ball instead of much “safer” picks whom had equally high ceilings. Did I miss any? I’m sure I did
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 21, 2019 18:12:42 GMT -5
Tough call honestly. They both have a ring and the work Cherington did allowed Dombrowski to make the moves that he was capable of making to win his. I don’t think it’s a tough call. Cherrington was god awful and got fired for a reason. We went from first to last in back to back years and he was the entire reason. He gave one of the worst contracts of all time to Sandoval, another awful contract to Rusney despite the red flags, gave a bad contract to Hanley, allowed Lester to leave, got a disgustingly bad haul back for lackey whom we could have gotten top prospects for instead of a physically washed up major leaguer. Drafted Trey Ball instead of much “safer” picks whom had equally high ceilings. Did I miss any? I’m sure I did Cherington's resume: Drafted the following players: Brian Johnson Ty Buttrey Michael Chavis Sam Travis Michael Kopech Andrew Benintendi Logan Allen Signed IFA: Rafael Devers Darwinzon Hernandez Yoan Moncada Tzu-Wei Lin I still refuse to believe Pablo was his guy, just like I don't believe Crawford was Theo. Cherington worked under Theo and had the same philosophies and neither signing fits the profile. We have evidence of the FO side stepping him. Valentine was not his choice. He might have not gotten much back in the Nick Punto trade, but the fact he got rid of all those albatross contracts AND got something of value is magnificent. The freed space allowed them to load the team with short term contracts that was meant to get replaced by the Margot, Devers, Benintendi, Mookie, et and build from within. He managed to put together the right combination that ended up winning a ring. A core that consisted of Napoli, Koji, Victorino, Okajima, Gomes,et He evaluated a lot of good talent, missed on some, held on despite pressure to trade some away. He missed on the Andrew Bailey trade, which was fair value for what you expect to be a young shutdown closer, but his 3rd choice was Koji with Okajima setting him up. As far as Lester leaving, Larry and Co. Completely low-balled him and Cherington was forced to trade. They got Cespedes back and then flipped for Rick Porcello, who won a Cy Young and was instrumental in a WS ring. They also traded Lackey for Joe Kelly who was vital for that run as well. Bad value, but it turned into a win, albeit years later.
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Post by jdb on Aug 21, 2019 18:35:29 GMT -5
Pretty sure ownership forced him to get MLB players back when he traded Lester as well. Rumor had Josh Bell being offered and Bundy from Baltimore I think.
I think DDom finishes his contract maybe gets a short extension. This team needs a few pieces and to figure out the Betts and JDM situation. I’d hate to think we would be doing interviews until thanksgiving with so much needed to be done and decided on.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 21, 2019 22:12:27 GMT -5
Cherington's resume: Drafted the following players: Brian Johnson Ty Buttrey Michael Chavis Sam Travis Michael Kopech Andrew Benintendi Logan Allen Signed IFA: Rafael Devers Darwinzon Hernandez Yoan Moncada Tzu-Wei Lin I still refuse to believe Pablo was his guy, just like I don't believe Crawford was Theo. Cherington worked under Theo and had the same philosophies and neither signing fits the profile. We have evidence of the FO side stepping him. Valentine was not his choice. He might have not gotten much back in the Nick Punto trade, but the fact he got rid of all those albatross contracts AND got something of value is magnificent. The freed space allowed them to load the team with short term contracts that was meant to get replaced by the Margot, Devers, Benintendi, Mookie, et and build from within. He managed to put together the right combination that ended up winning a ring. A core that consisted of Napoli, Koji, Victorino, Okajima, Gomes,et He evaluated a lot of good talent, missed on some, held on despite pressure to trade some away. He missed on the Andrew Bailey trade, which was fair value for what you expect to be a young shutdown closer, but his 3rd choice was Koji with Okajima setting him up. As far as Lester leaving, Larry and Co. Completely low-balled him and Cherington was forced to trade. They got Cespedes back and then flipped for Rick Porcello, who won a Cy Young and was instrumental in a WS ring. They also traded Lackey for Joe Kelly who was vital for that run as well. Bad value, but it turned into a win, albeit years later. We can agree to disagree. I think exactly opposite which is why I think Ben would be a disaster. IMO way too many excuses were given this GM. Though amazing 2013. I thought it was complete luck. 1-- I felt he was an incompetent GM. As a result when they lost out on Donaldson -- he did what many big market GM's do-- they go after the next big name on the list. 2-- The blunder that was Hanley Ramirez. Nuff said. 3-- Losing Lester -- I don't believe for 1 second that he had nothing to do with it -- which seems to be passed on at times. IMO it's an excuse. 4-- Trading Lackey for nothing. The blunder of getting nothing for Lackey. The blunder of Hanley imo are just the type of things a poor GM would do which is why Pablo makes sense. You're in a big market and you are looking for big names. I don't believe for 1 second, Big Ben is special to avoid this type of thinking. Lackey was making a lot of noise that he wanted out after the Lester fiasco -- and there was nothing Ben did that was special in this circumstance. Instead he traded Lackey for nothing. -- Let the excuses fly. 5-- And I'm pretty sure I was on here with imo a gross lack of vision by Big Ben when he chose to resign Koji over Miller. After 2014 the team was in a rebuild. Miller was young and loved Boston. Koji was old. Even if you wanted to win - you aren't in rebuild -- great try to win - but Koji was going on FORTY when they re-signed him. Remarkably Koji was still good but Miller much younger -- that's where imo a smart GM would have had the guts to go for Miller. 6--- This lack of vision , or guts or fortitude -- maybe ofc he has some of these-- but imo it was clear not enough. I understand the GM for Toronto was all over Billy Beane to get Donaldson. I know the SOx were in on it-- but I find it typical the more aggressive GM gets Donaldson. Juts as DD - the more aggressive guy targets top notch players like Price, JDM, Sale and Kimbrel-- and he gets them. Ben imo "settles." He doesn't "fight" for Lester. He doesn't "fight" for Lackey. he doesn't "fight" for Donaldson "he settles for the next guy."
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 21, 2019 23:20:44 GMT -5
Cherington's resume: Drafted the following players: Brian Johnson Ty Buttrey Michael Chavis Sam Travis Michael Kopech Andrew Benintendi Logan Allen Signed IFA: Rafael Devers Darwinzon Hernandez Yoan Moncada Tzu-Wei Lin I still refuse to believe Pablo was his guy, just like I don't believe Crawford was Theo. Cherington worked under Theo and had the same philosophies and neither signing fits the profile. We have evidence of the FO side stepping him. Valentine was not his choice. He might have not gotten much back in the Nick Punto trade, but the fact he got rid of all those albatross contracts AND got something of value is magnificent. The freed space allowed them to load the team with short term contracts that was meant to get replaced by the Margot, Devers, Benintendi, Mookie, et and build from within. He managed to put together the right combination that ended up winning a ring. A core that consisted of Napoli, Koji, Victorino, Okajima, Gomes,et He evaluated a lot of good talent, missed on some, held on despite pressure to trade some away. He missed on the Andrew Bailey trade, which was fair value for what you expect to be a young shutdown closer, but his 3rd choice was Koji with Okajima setting him up. As far as Lester leaving, Larry and Co. Completely low-balled him and Cherington was forced to trade. They got Cespedes back and then flipped for Rick Porcello, who won a Cy Young and was instrumental in a WS ring. They also traded Lackey for Joe Kelly who was vital for that run as well. Bad value, but it turned into a win, albeit years later. We can agree to disagree. I think exactly opposite which is why I think Ben would be a disaster. IMO way too many excuses were given this GM. Though amazing 2013. I thought it was complete luck. 1-- I felt he was an incompetent GM. As a result when they lost out on Donaldson -- he did what many big market GM's do-- they go after the next big name on the list. 2-- The blunder that was Hanley Ramirez. Nuff said. 3-- Losing Lester -- I don't believe for 1 second that he had nothing to do with it -- which seems to be passed on at times. IMO it's an excuse. 4-- Trading Lackey for nothing. The blunder of getting nothing for Lackey. The blunder of Hanley imo are just the type of things a poor GM would do which is why Pablo makes sense. You're in a big market and you are looking for big names. I don't believe for 1 second, Big Ben is special to avoid this type of thinking. Lackey was making a lot of noise that he wanted out after the Lester fiasco -- and there was nothing Ben did that was special in this circumstance. Instead he traded Lackey for nothing. -- Let the excuses fly. 5-- And I'm pretty sure I was on here with imo a gross lack of vision by Big Ben when he chose to resign Koji over Miller. After 2014 the team was in a rebuild. Miller was young and loved Boston. Koji was old. Even if you wanted to win - you aren't in rebuild -- great try to win - but Koji was going on FORTY when they re-signed him. Remarkably Koji was still good but Miller much younger -- that's where imo a smart GM would have had the guts to go for Miller. 6--- This lack of vision , or guts or fortitude -- maybe ofc he has some of these-- but imo it was clear not enough. I understand the GM for Toronto was all over Billy Beane to get Donaldson. I know the SOx were in on it-- but I find it typical the more aggressive GM gets Donaldson. Juts as DD - the more aggressive guy targets top notch players like Price, JDM, Sale and Kimbrel-- and he gets them. Ben imo "settles." He doesn't "fight" for Lester. He doesn't "fight" for Lackey. he doesn't "fight" for Donaldson "he settles for the next guy." 1. Hanley was a mistake. This I'll admit. Bad signing. All GMs have them. 2. They got Rick Porcello out of Lester who won a Cy Young and was instrumental in a ring. Even if you disagree with what happened, would you undo the deal? I wouldn't. 3. Jon Lackey trade almost was a bust, but Kelly was awesome out of the pen in October. Also, if Lackey is openly threatening retirement, what trade leverage do you have? 4. He also was the guy who acquired Andrew Miller in the first place sne got Eduardo Rodriguez for him. 5. And how is that Sale extension looking already? The Eovaldi contract? How was the Travis Shaw trade? The Wade Miley trade? How was the plan to rely on Pedroia at 2B this year? How'd Drew Pomeranz work out for a blue chip prospect? How'd Buttrey for Kinsler? You can pick apart bad moves for any GM really. Dombrowski vastly overpaid for Price and if he wasn't so awesome last year that deal would have been pretty bad.
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Post by soxjim on Aug 22, 2019 1:15:13 GMT -5
1. Hanley was a mistake. This I'll admit. Bad signing. All GMs have them. 2. They got Rick Porcello out of Lester who won a Cy Young and was instrumental in a ring. Even if you disagree with what happened, would you undo the deal? I wouldn't. 3. Jon Lackey trade almost was a bust, but Kelly was awesome out of the pen in October. Also, if Lackey is openly threatening retirement, what trade leverage do you have? 4. He also was the guy who acquired Andrew Miller in the first place sne got Eduardo Rodriguez for him. 5. And how is that Sale extension looking already? The Eovaldi contract? How was the Travis Shaw trade? The Wade Miley trade? How was the plan to rely on Pedroia at 2B this year? How'd Drew Pomeranz work out for a blue chip prospect? How'd Buttrey for Kinsler? You can pick apart bad moves for any GM really. Dombrowski vastly overpaid for Price and if he wasn't so awesome last year that deal would have been pretty bad. This is why we are on opposite sides of the country. I just wrote 7 counter points (plus ready to write more) and I realize I was getting nastier and nastier. I don't want that. You'll reply back and get brutal with me and would probably carry over to other posts. I just have to say your reply to me-- well let's just there are many that like Ben (such as you) just as there are many like me who think he was overall an incompetent GM. I'm just stunned by your reply and reasoning etc. I'm just stunned. And just because you are incompetent doesn;t mean every move you;ve ever made was bad. I respect you but I'm dropping this with you. If there was a forum that we could swear at each other in fun tearing into each other's opinion with more what we feel evidence that backs up our own -because at the end of the day - this is supposed to be fun -- I'd be all for it. Have fun and note we are complete opposites here. How you look at everything - - I'm stunned. And what you call "pick apart" I call MAJOR BLUNDERS not worthy of a competent MLB GM for a big market team. I'll leave it at that.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 22, 2019 6:10:58 GMT -5
We can agree to disagree. I think exactly opposite which is why I think Ben would be a disaster. IMO way too many excuses were given this GM. Though amazing 2013. I thought it was complete luck. 1-- I felt he was an incompetent GM. As a result when they lost out on Donaldson -- he did what many big market GM's do-- they go after the next big name on the list. 2-- The blunder that was Hanley Ramirez. Nuff said. 3-- Losing Lester -- I don't believe for 1 second that he had nothing to do with it -- which seems to be passed on at times. IMO it's an excuse. 4-- Trading Lackey for nothing. The blunder of getting nothing for Lackey. The blunder of Hanley imo are just the type of things a poor GM would do which is why Pablo makes sense. You're in a big market and you are looking for big names. I don't believe for 1 second, Big Ben is special to avoid this type of thinking. Lackey was making a lot of noise that he wanted out after the Lester fiasco -- and there was nothing Ben did that was special in this circumstance. Instead he traded Lackey for nothing. -- Let the excuses fly. 5-- And I'm pretty sure I was on here with imo a gross lack of vision by Big Ben when he chose to resign Koji over Miller. After 2014 the team was in a rebuild. Miller was young and loved Boston. Koji was old. Even if you wanted to win - you aren't in rebuild -- great try to win - but Koji was going on FORTY when they re-signed him. Remarkably Koji was still good but Miller much younger -- that's where imo a smart GM would have had the guts to go for Miller. 6--- This lack of vision , or guts or fortitude -- maybe ofc he has some of these-- but imo it was clear not enough. I understand the GM for Toronto was all over Billy Beane to get Donaldson. I know the SOx were in on it-- but I find it typical the more aggressive GM gets Donaldson. Juts as DD - the more aggressive guy targets top notch players like Price, JDM, Sale and Kimbrel-- and he gets them. Ben imo "settles." He doesn't "fight" for Lester. He doesn't "fight" for Lackey. he doesn't "fight" for Donaldson "he settles for the next guy." 1. Hanley was a mistake. This I'll admit. Bad signing. All GMs have them. 2. They got Rick Porcello out of Lester who won a Cy Young and was instrumental in a ring. Even if you disagree with what happened, would you undo the deal? I wouldn't. 3. Jon Lackey trade almost was a bust, but Kelly was awesome out of the pen in October. Also, if Lackey is openly threatening retirement, what trade leverage do you have? 4. He also was the guy who acquired Andrew Miller in the first place sne got Eduardo Rodriguez for him. 5. And how is that Sale extension looking already? The Eovaldi contract? How was the Travis Shaw trade? The Wade Miley trade? How was the plan to rely on Pedroia at 2B this year? How'd Drew Pomeranz work out for a blue chip prospect? How'd Buttrey for Kinsler? You can pick apart bad moves for any GM really. Dombrowski vastly overpaid for Price and if he wasn't so awesome last year that deal would have been pretty bad. Just a correction here - yes Cherington traded Miller for E-Rod, but Cherington wasn't the GM when Miller was acquired. It was Theo who got Miller. He was on the 2011 Red Sox when Theo was still GM.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Aug 22, 2019 7:01:11 GMT -5
We can agree to disagree. I think exactly opposite which is why I think Ben would be a disaster. IMO way too many excuses were given this GM. Though amazing 2013. I thought it was complete luck. 1-- I felt he was an incompetent GM. As a result when they lost out on Donaldson -- he did what many big market GM's do-- they go after the next big name on the list. 2-- The blunder that was Hanley Ramirez. Nuff said. 3-- Losing Lester -- I don't believe for 1 second that he had nothing to do with it -- which seems to be passed on at times. IMO it's an excuse. 4-- Trading Lackey for nothing. The blunder of getting nothing for Lackey. The blunder of Hanley imo are just the type of things a poor GM would do which is why Pablo makes sense. You're in a big market and you are looking for big names. I don't believe for 1 second, Big Ben is special to avoid this type of thinking. Lackey was making a lot of noise that he wanted out after the Lester fiasco -- and there was nothing Ben did that was special in this circumstance. Instead he traded Lackey for nothing. -- Let the excuses fly. 5-- And I'm pretty sure I was on here with imo a gross lack of vision by Big Ben when he chose to resign Koji over Miller. After 2014 the team was in a rebuild. Miller was young and loved Boston. Koji was old. Even if you wanted to win - you aren't in rebuild -- great try to win - but Koji was going on FORTY when they re-signed him. Remarkably Koji was still good but Miller much younger -- that's where imo a smart GM would have had the guts to go for Miller. 6--- This lack of vision , or guts or fortitude -- maybe ofc he has some of these-- but imo it was clear not enough. I understand the GM for Toronto was all over Billy Beane to get Donaldson. I know the SOx were in on it-- but I find it typical the more aggressive GM gets Donaldson. Juts as DD - the more aggressive guy targets top notch players like Price, JDM, Sale and Kimbrel-- and he gets them. Ben imo "settles." He doesn't "fight" for Lester. He doesn't "fight" for Lackey. he doesn't "fight" for Donaldson "he settles for the next guy." 1. Hanley was a mistake. This I'll admit. Bad signing. All GMs have them. 2. They got Rick Porcello out of Lester who won a Cy Young and was instrumental in a ring. Even if you disagree with what happened, would you undo the deal? I wouldn't. 3. Jon Lackey trade almost was a bust, but Kelly was awesome out of the pen in October. Also, if Lackey is openly threatening retirement, what trade leverage do you have? 4. He also was the guy who acquired Andrew Miller in the first place sne got Eduardo Rodriguez for him. 5. And how is that Sale extension looking already? The Eovaldi contract? How was the Travis Shaw trade? The Wade Miley trade? How was the plan to rely on Pedroia at 2B this year? How'd Drew Pomeranz work out for a blue chip prospect? How'd Buttrey for Kinsler? You can pick apart bad moves for any GM really. Dombrowski vastly overpaid for Price and if he wasn't so awesome last year that deal would have been pretty bad. I just have to ask how you can keep tearing into DD on the Sale Extension and act like Porcello was a plus for Ben? Porcello was given a huge extension and was way worse than Sale was this year his first year. Heck his AAV on a contract from 5 years ago is just about the same as Sales today and he's never been close to the pitcher Sale is. Yes he would go on to have some good years, but it was a huge overpay at the time and Sale could still make that contract look good. Yet overall Porcello has had two good years and three bad years for us, which isn't great for a guy making 25 million a year. Same type thing with Eovaldi, looks bad now, but we'll see what happens. Way to early to slam that signing, it could look good in three years or not. Like another poster said what was the other options you could have traded Lester for? Like look at how the Yankees rebuilt that system with one huge deadline sell off. Ben could have done that with Lester, Lackey, and Miller. Yet he messed up the roster so bad they needed or wanted veteran OF instead. You can't even come close to talking bad trades when Ben traded Reddick, a trade he lost by like 40 bwar. That has to be one of the worst top 5 trades in Red Sox history. I get it you like Ben, but you are really overlooking how big some of his mistakes were. Like trying to say the Miley trade was bad because he was good for the first time in three years? Hasn't he been on like 5 teams since then? Every GM makes mistakes, few make so many huge mistakes like Ben did. It's telling that a guy who was once seen as the next Theo hasn't got a second chance since his disaster here, he was that bad. Just think about that, so many bad teams and yet nothing. The way he built up the farm can't be done anymore, no more extra first round picks, no more big spending in the draft, no more huge international bonus guys. He had the ability to do things DD can't currently do.
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