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2020 Vision: Position Players
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 13, 2019 12:06:41 GMT -5
While I certainly get not wanting to even talk trade with Betts we are now past it being just an ten percent maybe. The Red Sox have started the PR machine about needing to reduce payroll and for a second time trading Betts. Yeah, if you can't see that the Sox are going to actively listen to trading Mookie Betts, you haven't been simply been paying attention.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 13, 2019 12:08:38 GMT -5
While I certainly get not wanting to even talk trade with Betts we are now past it being just an ten percent maybe. The Red Sox have started the PR machine about needing to reduce payroll and for a second time trading Betts. Yeah, if you can't see that the Sox are going to actively listen to trading Mookie Betts, you haven't been simply been paying attention. Sure they'll listen and then come to the conclusion that he's worth more to them than they're being offered.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 13, 2019 12:10:39 GMT -5
Yeah, if you can't see that the Sox are going to actively listen to trading Mookie Betts, you haven't been simply been paying attention. Sure they'll listen and then come to the conclusion that he's worth more to them than they're being offered. Lol or they will find a good enough trade package that they like. You know one way or the other. Not just that way.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 13, 2019 13:20:50 GMT -5
Sure they'll listen and then come to the conclusion that he's worth more to them than they're being offered. Lol or they will find a good enough trade package that they like. You know one way or the other. Not just that way. Yeah, I'd say we're approaching flip a coin territory. One of the biggest decisions the incoming GM has to make. Like I've said before this offseason will be far more fascinating than the boring go nowhere ride the Sox gave us for 162 games this season.
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Post by jdb on Sept 13, 2019 18:02:27 GMT -5
I personally think the Red Sox will explore trading Price and JDM (who I will bet does not opt-out), but not Mookie. Really interested in seeing how this offseason unfolds with so many moving parts. I don’t know what we could get with JD giving the rolling opt outs and I think we’d have to eat too much money on Price.
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Post by iakovos11 on Sept 13, 2019 18:06:12 GMT -5
If you can trade Price, very questionable, no need to trade JDM and you can still throw truckloads of money at Mookie. We'll see what happens . . .
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 13, 2019 18:44:03 GMT -5
I personally think the Red Sox will explore trading Price and JDM (who I will bet does not opt-out), but not Mookie. Really interested in seeing how this offseason unfolds with so many moving parts. I don’t know what we could get with JD giving the rolling opt outs and I think we’d have to eat too much money on Price. You're not getting anything JDM, an AL player who can't play the field anymore, who's expensive. You're getting very little for Price, who's coming off a injury plagued season, and paying at least 10 million of the contract. You then have to pay someone else to take his spot in the rotation. I don't see how that makes any sense whatsoever. If you're going to trade Price, it's going to come this off-season through next year's trade deadline. He has 10/5 no trade rights after 2020. Sale has 10/5 no trade rights after 2021. Porcello has 10/5 rights if he's resigned this year (which is one of the many reasons why he's not coming back).
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 13, 2019 22:04:51 GMT -5
Lol or they will find a good enough trade package that they like. You know one way or the other. Not just that way. Yeah, I'd say we're approaching flip a coin territory. One of the biggest decisions the incoming GM has to make. Like I've said before this offseason will be far more fascinating than the boring go nowhere ride the Sox gave us for 162 games this season. I'd think there's more of a chance he gets traded. Call it 60%-40% or 75%-25% chance he's gone versus staying. The only question that's on my mind is if another team gives up enough value. There's most likely going to be pressure from ownership to get good to great value our of this thing. There's also (I think) going to be pressure to trade him before his service time is up because they don't want to pay for this future contract. The Sox can always trade him later (trade deadline) if need be if they can't find the value this off-season.
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Post by danr on Sept 13, 2019 22:53:04 GMT -5
I personally think the Red Sox will explore trading Price and JDM (who I will bet does not opt-out), but not Mookie. I would be all for trading Price if the Sox could find any team that would take him and his contract. However, I don't think there is such a team. JDM is a very important member of this team beyond his hitting. He has had a very positive impact on other players. His dedication to the art of hitting has helped other players. He is one of the last players I would trade.
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Post by gerry on Sept 14, 2019 3:44:07 GMT -5
I personally think the Red Sox will explore trading Price and JDM (who I will bet does not opt-out), but not Mookie. I would be all for trading Price if the Sox could find any team that would take him and his contract. However, I don't think there is such a team. JDM is a very important member of this team beyond his hitting. He has had a very positive impact on other players. His dedication to the art of hitting has helped other players. He is one of the last players I would trade. As fans we don’t have anything to say about this complicated offseason. But If given a choice between an opting out JDM and Mookie, I choose Mookie. And Inprefer keeping both. The Sox will make some changes and improve the team, but this homegrown core is virtually impossible to improve upon, so keep it and build around it. The new GM can do this because he gains around $60M from Panda, Porcello, MM, Pearce, Nunez, Hembree, Wright alone; and more than $70M if Pedey has to retire and they restructure his remaining $$ towards a long term coaching/consultant/legend role which, very sadly, seems more likely than his return. That’s more than enough $$ to go for it in 2020, keep this champion core while gambling on the new kids to keep payroll down. With this core and a couple of pitching upgrades, it would be entirely reasonable to expect impact in 2020 from some combination of Chavis, Dalbec, Chatham, Duran, Darwinzon, Houck, Feltman, Shawaryn, Mata. Keeping Mookie, a treasure who should retire a Red Sox, is a priority. Between $60-70M, full deployment of the kids as they become ready, a few judicious trades and FA’s and we can look forward to an interesting, exciting, long term contender; with more talent in the lower levels.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 14, 2019 11:23:55 GMT -5
I would be all for trading Price if the Sox could find any team that would take him and his contract. However, I don't think there is such a team. JDM is a very important member of this team beyond his hitting. He has had a very positive impact on other players. His dedication to the art of hitting has helped other players. He is one of the last players I would trade. As fans we don’t have anything to say about this complicated offseason. But If given a choice between an opting out JDM and Mookie, I choose Mookie. And Inprefer keeping both. The Sox will make some changes and improve the team, but this homegrown core is virtually impossible to improve upon, so keep it and build around it. The new GM can do this because he gains around $60M from Panda, Porcello, MM, Pearce, Nunez, Hembree, Wright alone; and more than $70M if Pedey has to retire and they restructure his remaining $$ towards a long term coaching/consultant/legend role which, very sadly, seems more likely than his return. That’s more than enough $$ to go for it in 2020, keep this champion core while gambling on the new kids to keep payroll down. With this core and a couple of pitching upgrades, it would be entirely reasonable to expect impact in 2020 from some combination of Chavis, Dalbec, Chatham, Duran, Darwinzon, Houck, Feltman, Shawaryn, Mata. Keeping Mookie, a treasure who should retire a Red Sox, is a priority. Between $60-70M, full deployment of the kids as they become ready, a few judicious trades and FA’s and we can look forward to an interesting, exciting, long term contender; with more talent in the lower levels. If they reset the tax and they are already talking about it, that's like 40 million. Add in arbitration increases of about 15-20 million and you are maxed out. Betts and ERod are going to get huge raises, everyone seems to be going way low on arbitration numbers. Betts alone should get 10 million more or darn close to that. So that's the issue you lose all those guys and have almost no money to replace them. Hence why we are hearing about trading Martinez and/or Betts. Gives you money to spend and can likely help fill your need for young pitchers.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 14, 2019 11:28:28 GMT -5
I personally think the Red Sox will explore trading Price and JDM (who I will bet does not opt-out), but not Mookie. You have been all over why teams won't trade for Betts, yet you think they can trade Price at his age after this season with three years and 96 million left? Unless you want to eat half his salary or take on another bad contract you need to wait till he is pitching well to trade him.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 14, 2019 14:27:26 GMT -5
I personally think the Red Sox will explore trading Price and JDM (who I will bet does not opt-out), but not Mookie. You have been all over why teams won't trade for Betts, yet you think they can trade Price at his age after this season with three years and 96 million left? Unless you want to eat half his salary or take on another bad contract you need to wait till he is pitching well to trade him. It's hard being in denial. Create things that can't be possible (like the Price and JDM trades). Have we reached even step one of the 5 step process of denial here?
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Post by soxjim on Sept 14, 2019 15:39:52 GMT -5
If the Dodgers like Mookie Betts shouldn't they wait until he becomes a free agent and then just sign him without giving anyone up? OFC the Dodgers like Mookie. Who doesn't? Do the Dodgers know they are going to sign him? The Yanks might sign him for example then how much longer before the the Dodgers might win a championship if they don't win this year? Maybe the Dodgers like Mookie for 1 year and not 8-10. Why not trade for him - of which you are only trading for a year guy so it's not like you are going to have to give up the farm-- and have arguably your best chance to win a championship of which you haven't won in 31/32 years? We have won 4 in 15 years. They've won nothing in over 30 expect to say "We've ben there." Well at what point are you okay with continually being there but not winning? Thirty one years and counting. How long do you not take winning a championship? Betts is MVP caliber. While he is not going to assure a championship he certainly increases the odds to win one on a team like the Dodgers. And for what are you giving up for having the best offense in baseball along with adding an elite defender which will also help preserve your star pitchers through the course of a season?
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 14, 2019 15:48:17 GMT -5
I personally think the Red Sox will explore trading Price and JDM (who I will bet does not opt-out), but not Mookie. You have been all over why teams won't trade for Betts, yet you think they can trade Price at his age after this season with three years and 96 million left? Unless you want to eat half his salary or take on another bad contract you need to wait till he is pitching well to trade him. I'm talking about dumping Price and JDM to save money to re-sign Betts. I'm not talking about a magical trade of 3 top 20 prospects for 1 year of Mookie to some team that doesn't exist because no competing teams have a giant hole to fill in CF or RF, like the Red Sox would have if they traded him.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 14, 2019 15:51:46 GMT -5
If the Dodgers like Mookie Betts shouldn't they wait until he becomes a free agent and then just sign him without giving anyone up? OFC the Dodgers like Mookie. Who doesn't? Do the Dodgers know they are going to sign him? The Yanks might sign him for example then how much longer before the the Dodgers might win a championship if they don't win this year? Maybe the Dodgers like Mookie for 1 year and not 8-10. Why not trade for him - of which you are only trading for a year guy so it's not like you are going to have to give up the farm-- and have arguably your best chance to win a championship of which you haven't won in 31/32 years? We have won 4 in 15 years. They've won nothing in over 30 expect to say "We've ben there." Well at what point are you okay with continually being there but not winning? Thirty one years and counting. How long do you not take winning a championship? Betts is MVP caliber. While he is not going to assure a championship he certainly increases the odds to win one on a team like the Dodgers. And for what are you giving up for having the best offense in baseball along with adding an elite defender which will also help preserve your star pitchers through the course of a season? Also remember how not clutch Mookie has been in the playoffs. The Dodgers have no problem making it to the postseason as one of the best teams in the league without Mookie. Why would Mookie necessarily put them over the top? He has a 65 wRC+ in his postseason career in 99 PA.
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Post by soxjim on Sept 14, 2019 15:57:31 GMT -5
If you want to look at it "most convenient for Red Sox fans" that's fine. But wouldn't it be equally "convenient" for the Dodgers to finally win a championship after such a long drought? I've been wrong in that I was saying 21 year if they don't win this year - yet it will actually be 31. I'm sure you can recall all the negativity last year on here even as they were winning so often and SOx have laos won 3 in 14 before last year. Now the dodgers haven't won it all in so long -- maybe they will look for a trade that will be "convenient" for them by getting a guy that will help lead them to a championship. A trade that so good for both. That would be terrifically convenient for both. Nothing wrong with that. I just think sometimes some Sox fans get immune to winning titles. I;m sure there are a lot of Dodger Blue who aren't so happy being a bridesmaid for so long. The Dodgers are already going to win that division next year. And Betts, for all his virtues, is not a magical talisman who causes you to win postseason series. It's not a trade they need to make. It's not a trade YOU feel they need to make because YOU don't care how long it's been that they haven't won. All I've suggested is that they might feel different if they are sick and tired of not winning after 31/32 years. I'm with you if they are content seeking as you've mentioned "We've won the division . . ." Heck I use that for DD - I'm proud we won the division 3 times. But you can hide behind the bold all you want. Not one player ever guarantees a championship in baseball. So your statement in bold it's something to say all the time if you don't want to trade for a big time player. The dodgers have the excuse - we can win the division without him. Houston could have said the same thing about Verlander. But for this 1 year to get Mookie- you don't have to give up a lot. And you move from 2nd best team or 3rd best team in baseball (if you don't win it all this year) to "favored to win." No skin off my back. I hate the Dodgers. Whatever they do I root against. I hope they have to wait another 30-32 years. I just think at some point a big time organization hits a boiling point. I'm not saying they have to give up a lot. Betts is only available for a 1 year.
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Post by soxjim on Sept 14, 2019 16:08:17 GMT -5
OFC the Dodgers like Mookie. Who doesn't? Do the Dodgers know they are going to sign him? The Yanks might sign him for example then how much longer before the the Dodgers might win a championship if they don't win this year? Maybe the Dodgers like Mookie for 1 year and not 8-10. Why not trade for him - of which you are only trading for a year guy so it's not like you are going to have to give up the farm-- and have arguably your best chance to win a championship of which you haven't won in 31/32 years? We have won 4 in 15 years. They've won nothing in over 30 expect to say "We've ben there." Well at what point are you okay with continually being there but not winning? Thirty one years and counting. How long do you not take winning a championship? Betts is MVP caliber. While he is not going to assure a championship he certainly increases the odds to win one on a team like the Dodgers. And for what are you giving up for having the best offense in baseball along with adding an elite defender which will also help preserve your star pitchers through the course of a season? Also remember how not clutch Mookie has been in the playoffs. The Dodgers have no problem making it to the postseason as one of the best teams in the league without Mookie. Why would Mookie necessarily put them over the top? He has a 65 wRC+ in his postseason career in 99 PA. Are you kidding? You aren't going to give some good value for Mookie Betts because you are scared he won't ever break out and perform the post season not to mention how he could help your team gain home field advantage and save your pitching among other things before that? But you are okay keeping him but other teams should be wary?
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 14, 2019 17:32:44 GMT -5
You have been all over why teams won't trade for Betts, yet you think they can trade Price at his age after this season with three years and 96 million left? Unless you want to eat half his salary or take on another bad contract you need to wait till he is pitching well to trade him. I'm talking about dumping Price and JDM to save money to re-sign Betts. I'm not talking about a magical trade of 3 top 20 prospects for 1 year of Mookie to some team that doesn't exist because no competing teams have a giant hole to fill in CF or RF, like the Red Sox would have if they traded him. So you want a bigger hole in the rotation and a huge amount of dead money? That's my point, you can't just dump him, that trade doesn't exist. That's clearly way crazier then getting a good return for one of the best players in the game. Don't lump everyone together, only a few posters think you can get that return. A good return, like the Goldy trade should be easy. Then there's the few people like you that think you get almost nothing.
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Post by p23w on Sept 14, 2019 19:01:48 GMT -5
I, for one, agree that this will be a fascinating off season. I get the inclination that this team will revert to "your father's Red Sox" i.e. plenty of hitting and not ready for prime time pitching. Probably too early to prognosticate, but the magic 8 ball agrees.
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Post by caseytins on Sept 14, 2019 19:17:18 GMT -5
It will be interesting to see what JD does with his player option. Seriously, he should have caught that last fly ball if he only raised his glove. I hope he doesn't exercise the option. If he does, I would let him walk.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 14, 2019 21:07:54 GMT -5
I'm talking about dumping Price and JDM to save money to re-sign Betts. I'm not talking about a magical trade of 3 top 20 prospects for 1 year of Mookie to some team that doesn't exist because no competing teams have a giant hole to fill in CF or RF, like the Red Sox would have if they traded him. So you want a bigger hole in the rotation and a huge amount of dead money? That's my point, you can't just dump him, that trade doesn't exist. That's clearly way crazier then getting a good return for one of the best players in the game. Don't lump everyone together, only a few posters think you can get that return. A good return, like the Goldy trade should be easy. Then there's the few people like you that think you get almost nothing. As I said before and you ignored, Goldschmidt was clearly open to signing an extension and with how the Cardinals work, that's (likely) precisely why they traded for him. That is clearly NOT the case with Mookie, so good luck getting more for him than he's worth to the Red Sox already. No team is going to rent 1 year of Mookie and give up what I consider a good return.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 14, 2019 21:19:05 GMT -5
Also remember how not clutch Mookie has been in the playoffs. The Dodgers have no problem making it to the postseason as one of the best teams in the league without Mookie. Why would Mookie necessarily put them over the top? He has a 65 wRC+ in his postseason career in 99 PA. Are you kidding? You aren't going to give some good value for Mookie Betts because you are scared he won't ever break out and perform the post season not to mention how he could help your team gain home field advantage and save your pitching among other things before that? But you are okay keeping him but other teams should be wary? Not sure how else to say this. The Dodgers are clearly a playoff team for the foreseeable future with Mookie or without. They aren't so dumb to give up a huge return to get someone who may or may not show up in the playoffs. They gave up one top 100 prospect (who has dropped from #64 to #90 since) for Machado after Seager went down for the season and then let him walk. They aren't going to give up a lot more than that for a guy they do not need.
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Post by soxjim on Sept 14, 2019 21:37:02 GMT -5
Are you kidding? You aren't going to give some good value for Mookie Betts because you are scared he won't ever break out and perform the post season not to mention how he could help your team gain home field advantage and save your pitching among other things before that? But you are okay keeping him but other teams should be wary? Not sure how else to say this. The Dodgers are clearly a playoff team for the foreseeable future with Mookie or without. They aren't so dumb to give up a huge return to get someone who may or may not show up in the playoffs. They gave up one top 100 prospect (who has dropped from #64 to #90 since) for Machado after Seager went down for the season and then let him walk. They aren't going to give up a lot more than that for a guy they do not need. I think you should be arguing with pedro on this or someone else but not me. I never said Dodgers need to give up a huge return. I referred to a good trade - for both teams.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 14, 2019 21:59:46 GMT -5
Not sure how else to say this. The Dodgers are clearly a playoff team for the foreseeable future with Mookie or without. They aren't so dumb to give up a huge return to get someone who may or may not show up in the playoffs. They gave up one top 100 prospect (who has dropped from #64 to #90 since) for Machado after Seager went down for the season and then let him walk. They aren't going to give up a lot more than that for a guy they do not need. Points for fandom, but you're still talking in circles. Betts is so good that you'd be willing to trade the #3 starter and the cleanup hitter on pure salary dumps just to pay Betts more, but no other team in baseball would do anything similar because he's not that good? Also, if playoff performance is so vital to the Dodgers, explain Clayton Kershaw. If forced to choose between Mookie and JDM/Price, who are both over 30, the choice is simple. Playoff performance cannot be predicted so no smart team is going to give up a lot for what looks like might be an upgrade to fans. Also, the Dodgers have 17.1 fWAR from their outfielders this year compared to 12.1 for the Red Sox. How much of an upgrade would Mookie be to them?
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