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Red Sox GM Search & Other Front Office Moves
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 20, 2019 16:01:54 GMT -5
I'm not really worried about losing Bane. He was the scout who found Mike Trout, i give him all the credit for that. However that was part of his credentials when they hired him 7 years ago, I don't think we have heard of anybody notably attributed to him here in the last 7 years People should look at the oral history of the Mike Trout pick that Keith Law put together. It's a really fantastic article, and Bane comes off well, but signing Trout was the personal crusade of Greg Morhardt. Someone should make a movie: Morhardt works for the Red Sox, at least of the publication of this article. www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/26864123/draft-heist-century-how-mike-trout-fell-angelsOk, one more detail I cannot get over: People missed on Trout because they couldn't believe the magnitude of what was staring them in the face. [/b] Well, I guess it's hard to say, "Here's the new Mickey Mantle talent staring you in the face". They tried that with Clint Hurdle in the late 70s and that didn't work out so well.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 20, 2019 16:08:51 GMT -5
Teams missed Trout because he was from NJ and no one had come out of NJ in forever. The weather was always bad so there were tons of rainouts, the competition sucked, and teams did not dedicate resources to scout him. Theo said he wouldn't have drafted him either if he fell to the Sox.
That said, if a guy actually scouted him, he would have been dumb to not put him high. He had a great scouting report in 2008. A year later, he had a bunch of 6s and 7s as an elite 5 tool prospect.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 21, 2019 4:51:03 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 21, 2019 4:57:02 GMT -5
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Post by vermontsox1 on Sept 21, 2019 13:25:40 GMT -5
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 21, 2019 16:13:16 GMT -5
The Sox are losing a lot of bodies in that front office. This is probably what Heyman was referring to in his tweet earlier.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Sept 21, 2019 17:23:19 GMT -5
The Sox are losing a lot of bodies in that front office. This is probably what Heyman was referring to in his tweet earlier. Gary Hughes wasn't with amateur scouting, so it likely was not. He was an MLB scout.
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Post by grandsalami on Sept 22, 2019 16:43:45 GMT -5
I want nothing to do with a Theo reunion. He is pulling the same stuff that DD Pulled, and he doesn’t have top picks to fall back on.
Oh and the Chapman trade.
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Post by soxfaninnj on Sept 22, 2019 20:39:41 GMT -5
I want nothing to do with a Theo reunion. He is pulling the same stuff that DD Pulled, and he doesn’t have top picks to fall back on. Oh and the Chapman trade. Don’t forget the Eloy trade
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 22, 2019 20:45:29 GMT -5
I want nothing to do with a Theo reunion. He is pulling the same stuff that DD Pulled, and he doesn’t have top picks to fall back on. Oh and the Chapman trade. Don’t forget the Eloy trade The Eloy trade was worse. Like 100 times worse. The Chapman trade at least resulted in a championship.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 22, 2019 21:50:59 GMT -5
Don’t forget the Eloy trade The Eloy trade was worse. Like 100 times worse. The Chapman trade at least resulted in a championship. Yeah, I hated that deal for the Cubs. Quintana is good, but in my opinion not good enough to deal Jimenez for. I guess it falls along the line of failing to develop your own starters and then having to overpay because of it, which sounds familiar in Boston, the not developing starters. I know I'll piss people off around here, but I'm tired of TINSTAASP or whatever the hell it is. Once upon a time, the Red Sox within 8 years developed Bruce Hurst, John Tudor, Bob Ojeda, Oil Can Boyd, Al Nipper, and Roger Clemens. In the last 8 years, the Sox have developed...? Felix Doubront was useful for awhile in 2013...and that's about it. At some point you have to develop enough arms so that if/when attrition does happen the odds are you can still find some starting pitching. They have done a great job developing position players and have some good young bullpen arms, but not having your own quality starting pitching leads to a lot of risky big $ contracts down the road. Theo has made his mistakes in Chicago, but when all is said and done, I'm sure he'll be remembered fondly in the Windy City. But the Cubs haven't been anywhere near the level they were in 2016.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 22, 2019 22:18:43 GMT -5
Jose Quintana has been worth 5.0 bWAR for the Cubs, compared to Eloy Jimenez being worth 1.3 bWAR for the White Sox.
Aroldis Chapman was worth 1.3 bWAR for the Cubs, and Gleyber Torres has been worth 7.1 bWAR for the Yankees.
Torres is 16 days younger than Jimenez.
Torres was closer to the majors than Jimenez, and Quintna was under contract for longer than Chapman. Ethical issues with Chapman aside, there's no way that trading nearly-ready Torres for two months of Chapman was less bad than trading two-years-away Jimenez for 2.5 years of Quintana. It's really not close.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 22, 2019 22:24:51 GMT -5
I seriously doubt there will ever be a trade like Torres+ for Chapman ever again.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 22, 2019 22:25:39 GMT -5
I seriously doubt there will ever be a trade like Torres+ for Chapman ever again. Even without the moral implications it was bad. It was a tremendously bad baseball trade, for a player they should have had second thoughts about making a good baseball trade for.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 22, 2019 22:27:52 GMT -5
I seriously doubt there will ever be a trade like Torres+ for Chapman ever again. Even without the moral implications it was bad. It was the trade that made every present and future GM realize that sure thing prospects are worth 10 times more than any rental even with a WS victory. Torres was about as sure of a thing as it gets when it comes to prospects. And of course the Yankees were the last team to benefit from that.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 22, 2019 23:50:06 GMT -5
Jose Quintana has been worth 5.0 bWAR for the Cubs, compared to Eloy Jimenez being worth 1.3 bWAR for the White Sox. Aroldis Chapman was worth 1.3 bWAR for the Cubs, and Gleyber Torres has been worth 7.1 bWAR for the Yankees. Torres is 16 days younger than Jimenez. Torres was closer to the majors than Jimenez, and Quintna was under contract for longer than Chapman. Ethical issues with Chapman aside, there's no way that trading nearly-ready Torres for two months of Chapman was less bad than trading two-years-away Jimenez for 2.5 years of Quintana. It's really not close. I think in time, when all is said and done, Jimenez will surpass Quintana in bWAR or whatever metric you're using. As far as Torres for Chapman, that is Theo's version of the Bagwell for Andersen deal I suppose, except that Chapman was a closer, not a middle reliever like Andersen, and the Cubs did win the Series, unlike the 1990 Red Sox who didn't even win 1 post-season game. That said, that was an awful deal, a desperate to win type of move that if the Cubs hadn't had 108 years of not winning a Series, and 71 year history of not even getting to the Series, they don't make. They were totally desperate and Brian Cashman, like the devil (as in making a deal with the devil), preyed on Theo's/Cubs' desperation. Fortunate for the Cubs Chapman's blown save in Game 7 didn't destroy them. Honestly, I was surprised that the Indians, with the top of the order coming up in the last of the 9th and the crowd going crazy, didn't score off Chapman. Kipnis had a very loud foul ball, but other than that, nothing. It's scary to think of how much of a superstar Torres has or will become over the years. If Theo ever came back, I'd hope he'd never ever make a move like that again! I mean, that's totally not the kinds of moves he advocated for as Red Sox GM. He guarded prospects as if they were his children. I would think the desperation in Boston would no longer be at any level even remotely close to that anymore, to even think of making a move like that in the future.
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Post by kevfc89 on Sept 23, 2019 2:27:58 GMT -5
Jose Quintana has been worth 5.0 bWAR for the Cubs, compared to Eloy Jimenez being worth 1.3 bWAR for the White Sox. Aroldis Chapman was worth 1.3 bWAR for the Cubs, and Gleyber Torres has been worth 7.1 bWAR for the Yankees. Torres is 16 days younger than Jimenez. Torres was closer to the majors than Jimenez, and Quintna was under contract for longer than Chapman. Ethical issues with Chapman aside, there's no way that trading nearly-ready Torres for two months of Chapman was less bad than trading two-years-away Jimenez for 2.5 years of Quintana. It's really not close. I agree, but also don't forget about Dylan Cease in the Quintana trade. He has a chance to be pretty good if he sorts out a few things and could make that trade look worse than it is. While we're on suspect Theo moves, the trade of Soler for one year of Wade Davis is looking bad too. Theo's had some doozies lately. In the last few years Jimenez, Cease, Torres, and Soler were traded and only Quintana (who hasn't been near as good as his White Sox days) remains on the return.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 23, 2019 2:47:58 GMT -5
Chicago isn't taking back that Chapman trade, especially since it resulted in a championship.
At some point, value should be put aside for the things that matter. Like winning.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 23, 2019 8:09:08 GMT -5
Theo's other move is backfiring, too - Craig Kimbrel. I don't pay too much attention to the Cubs but in checking the standings I can see the Cubs barring a miracle have blown what looked like a good crack at a wild card spot.
The Brewers lose Yelich so you figure they're in trouble, yet they heat up and it's the Cubs who lose six in a row, which contains a 2 run loss and then five straight one run losses. That is agonizing. I don't know the details but I see Kimbrel has something to do with them. His control still isn't the greatest and he's given up a ton of HRs in such a short span of time.
I'm not prepared to say that signing Kimbrel was dumb or that Kimbrel is washed up, but it seems like pitchers who don't have the benefit of a full spring training really, really struggle. I remember Greg Holland last year being such a mess. And the Sox rotation was a mess this year, too. It's anecdotal, but I think that pitchers really need spring training and Kimbrel without his, is a total mess, and it's helping to destroy the Cubs this season.
And Pedro, you're probably right - the Cubs after waiting for a century to win wouldn't undo the championship in order to get back Torres, but geez, you have to wonder if there was another alternative out there at the time for closer. I honestly don't remember so I can't say one way or another. Chapman did contribute to the title. He was a key piece even if WAR or whatever metric doesn't agree, but seeing Kimbrel blow it every day, those wins that stay wins and don't turn into losses are quite valuable even if they're not measured up as well.
But wow, did the Cubs pay. A championship does trump a young superstar, but in a vacuum, what a terrible deal. Like I said, I hope the Sox never feel that desperate again.
I mean, I'd be willing to overpay if I felt that a player was the last piece of the puzzle - none of us know how many years we have left - I don't know if I've already seen my last Red Sox World Championship already - certainly hope not, but to make a deal THAT terrible - one that greatly lessens chances of future championships is a tough pill to swallow. Fortunately for the Cubs, they won Game 7 despite Chapman giving it up to Rajai Davis.
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Post by James Dunne on Sept 23, 2019 8:26:28 GMT -5
At some point, value should be put aside for the things that matter. YES! That's what I was sayi-- [Jonah Hill maybe cut it out dot gif] The phrase "things that matter" in the context of a baseball-only discussion with regards to Chapman is reeeeally dicey.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Sept 23, 2019 12:51:20 GMT -5
Interesting article from Buster Olney. Couldn't read all of it as it's behind a paywall, but some of it was talked about in this John Tomase article: www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/report-red-sox-front-office-perceived-miserable-place-workInteresting, the part about Sam Kennedy being the one thing that's preventing the Red Sox FO from being the Mets' messed up FO. I hope that's a gross overstatement. Apparently the Red Sox FO was a miserable place to work. Wonder where the misery was eminating from? Was it up top? From DDo? Both? Others below? Definitely doesn't sound like it was cohesive, that's for sure.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Sept 23, 2019 13:43:09 GMT -5
He also mentions that Toboni overseeing the draft might suggest that the new GM will be someone internal.
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Post by pedrofanforever45 on Sept 23, 2019 14:14:36 GMT -5
At some point, value should be put aside for the things that matter. YES! That's what I was sayi-- [Jonah Hill maybe cut it out dot gif] The phrase "things that matter" in the context of a baseball-only discussion with regards to Chapman is reeeeally dicey. Flags. Fly. Forever. It's perminent. Final.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 23, 2019 14:18:16 GMT -5
Interesting article from Buster Olney. Couldn't read all of it as it's behind a paywall, but some of it was talked about in this John Tomase article: www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/report-red-sox-front-office-perceived-miserable-place-workInteresting, the part about Sam Kennedy being the one thing that's preventing the Red Sox FO from being the Mets' messed up FO. I hope that's a gross overstatement. Apparently the Red Sox FO was a miserable place to work. Wonder where the misery was eminating from? Was it up top? From DDo? Both? Others below? Definitely doesn't sound like it was cohesive, that's for sure. That comment about Kennedy came from one unnamed executive. That Olney article places the blame on Henry, saying his back and forth style and firing two guys after three years when they won Championships means a bunch of guys he might want to hire won't want to come to Boston. I fully agree because I can't see DD doing deals like Eovaldi if he was told he had to reset next year. One bad year that had a lot of bad luck and Henry does a 180. It's what he does rebuild the farm, don't trade the young guys, then we want to win trade them. Don't sign big contracts it kills you long-term, then we want to win give out big deals.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Sept 23, 2019 15:03:37 GMT -5
Jose Quintana has been worth 5.0 bWAR for the Cubs, compared to Eloy Jimenez being worth 1.3 bWAR for the White Sox. Aroldis Chapman was worth 1.3 bWAR for the Cubs, and Gleyber Torres has been worth 7.1 bWAR for the Yankees. Torres is 16 days younger than Jimenez. Torres was closer to the majors than Jimenez, and Quintna was under contract for longer than Chapman. Ethical issues with Chapman aside, there's no way that trading nearly-ready Torres for two months of Chapman was less bad than trading two-years-away Jimenez for 2.5 years of Quintana. It's really not close. Both Torres and Jimenez were in high A when traded, Eloy actually made AA after the trade, Torres not till the following year. So I wouldn't say Torres was closer when the trade was made. Eloy was rated a lot higher than Torres when traded #8 and #14 by Baseball America and mlb.com, Torres #24. They also included their #2 prospect to get Quintana and two other guys. Yet what really stands out is the timing and performance. Chapman was like the best reliever in the game or very close to it and they had a great team. It made sense to go for it and get that Championship. Quintana trade was made when they were 5.5 games back and he wasn't pitching well and he's never really been what they truly wanted. You can look at this based on war, but I just don't think that tells the full story. What made Quintana so valuable was a 5 bwar pitching at his salary, but the 2 bwar version they got and the worst part is the writing was already on the wall when they made that deal.
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