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Red Sox GM Search & Other Front Office Moves
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Post by soxjim on Sept 29, 2019 1:29:10 GMT -5
For any who've not read through it, Henry was very open about the hiring and firing. He really echoed a lot of what was said on this site when Dombrowski was first brought on board, that there would be costs down the road. Those costs got too high for them. Many here knew that he would trade off assets to get where they wanted to go - too many at one time for my taste. But the guy also iced much of the team's budget on older pitchers. That worked (last year) till it didn't (this one).
The FO and ownership were trying to steer Dombrowski in a different direction after the WS, but that didn't happen. Most revealing was that they want to get under the first of the cap penalties. That is going to engender some pain. Werner has some Athletics and Brewers envy also! It's not been lost on them that they are being outflanked by low budget teams. They're going to reel in the spending so that the penalties don't kill their draft board, that much is clear. I have a feeling they appreciate the players they have been able to sign and the scouting and international side of the organization that did that, probably with little input from Dombrowski
I'm in agreement with Hatfield and Fenway. You'll want to ignore a lot of the media noise. Given the success the team has had in the last sixteen years - dragging away a quarter of the WS trophies - it's no surprise that a few knives are out. A lot of the chatter, such as getting rid of the bulk of their assets including Bogaerts(!), are completely laughable. So laugh and ignore it. I think Henry is grossly exaggerating. If Henry knew after the World Series that he had to get under the cap, then why would he sign Sale to an extension? That deal put them in a big bind to go under the $208M. Henry would've known this. If he signed Sale I would have thought he would've told DD that someone like JDM has to go otherwise he can't afford everyone and get under $208m. Henry is the boss and if he tells an employee they have to do something - and they don't- yeah you get fired. But the thing is-- Henry is the one who ultimately controls his payroll. He could've just told DD "No," in regards to Sale. For example the below in bold seems to be a ridiculous comment from Henry. At the start of the season the owner doesn't dictate the direction of the team as he wants it? Of course he does. So he lays on this crap that he was "hopeful to convince DD?" IMO that defies logic if you're the boss/owner. You tell DD what you want and you sign nothing unless it follows your direction. Not this "Gee I hope my employee follows my instructions." In addition, wasn't there some quote on this thread or another that Werner said they won't necessarily get under $208m? Isn't that contradicting this article? And to further that - the last quote on here from Henry--> "I think in this case, we were unanimous that we needed to make a change. But I don’t feel like we’re going through general managers.” ---> Really? Can he say that with a straight face? That's why this is in italics. Going to be four GM's in 10 years but they aren't going through General Managers? "I think it became clear to me that perhaps we weren’t going to be on the same wavelength going forward. But I was hopeful throughout the year that maybe that perception would change. It didn’t.”And I'm not sure what you mean by "outflanked." You mean for 1 year? Maybe 2? Because for the A"s when was the last time they made it to the World Series? And as for spending, the one time Billy Beane went for spending quite a bit he traded Cespedes and got Lester and his team collapsed. Am I wrong about that? They want to go in the direction of Oakland and happy to be a playoff team and that's it?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Sept 29, 2019 9:53:13 GMT -5
This sounds exactly right to me. I don't think he was MANDATED to sell for MLB-talent explicitly, but he quite clearly felt pressure to do so, and that probably wasn't just paranoia. Even so, he didn't do a good job on a talent evaluation level either. The Lackey trade has been discussed, they didn't trade Uehara before free agency, he spent too much money on Hanley and Sandoval, and--for a guy with a win-now mandate--he didn't seem to have much sense of what minor league talent he should be selling high on. He did an outstanding job building a system, but really struggled to turn that system into MLB wins. So yeah, I think ownership had a hand in some of the problems in the decision-making process. But the fact that Cherington hasn't gotten a top job kind of indicates to me the level at which the rest of the league thinks the poor decisions themselves were Cherington's. If that makes sense. I was more of a Cherington apologist at the time, but now that the dust from that era has settled a bit... yeah, those were some bad deals. Whatever pressure you're under, at some point you need to make a trade that isn't a disaster. It kind of makes me appreciate what Billy Beane does. Granted I think he has a much more harmonious relationship with ownership, but it is the same sort of pressure to get creative and find a way to improve your team without much room in the budget. The same season Lackey was traded, the A's traded for Jeff Samardzija, along with Jason Hammel, giving up Billy McKinney, Addison Russell, and Dan Straily. They got 111 innings of 3.14 ERA ball out of him. With a year of arb left, they traded him that offseason (with Michael Ynoa) to the White Sox for Chris Bassitt, Josh Phegley, Rangel Ravelo, and Marcus Semien. Semien was immediately the most valuable player in any of the transactions we're talking about and will complete a 7.6 fWAR season today. So for those keeping score at home, during the 2014 season, Beane got a much better return on buying Samardzija than Cherington got on selling Lackey.
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Post by jimed14 on Sept 29, 2019 9:53:24 GMT -5
My recollection is the same as James'. That decision as well as the Panda and Hanley deals were what did Cherington in. Well they're now saying they're going to subtract a ton of payroll but they are not going to have a bridge year. The last time they said they weren't going to have a bridge year were the moves made in 2014 for 2015. Really it doesn't matter if it's coming from above or not, but this time it was actually Henry who said it before they hired anyone.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 29, 2019 10:24:36 GMT -5
My recollection is the same as James'. That decision as well as the Panda and Hanley deals were what did Cherington in. And it’s prob the Sale deal with a touch of Eolvaldi that did in Dombrowski. That and 20-20 hindsight on not making the rumored Benintendi for Yellich deal when Miami was burning down the house. But mostly it’s Sale (which, if not made, would I believe get ownership their coveted reset.
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Post by Guidas on Sept 29, 2019 10:27:54 GMT -5
My recollection is the same as James'. That decision as well as the Panda and Hanley deals were what did Cherington in. Well they're now saying they're going to subtract a ton of payroll but they are not going to have a bridge year. The last time they said they weren't going to have a bridge year were the moves made in 2014 for 2015. Really it doesn't matter if it's coming from above or not, but this time it was actually Henry who said it before they hired anyone. Yeah, it’s like a politician saying during a recession “the recovery has already begun.” Something between a flat-out lie and a slippery, rationalization with a sub-5% potential outcome.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Sept 29, 2019 11:28:09 GMT -5
It all depends on Henry's ownership style. We have no idea how much autonomy he gave Dombrowski and how that played out, or how much say the rest of the FO had in the decision making. He may be lying through his teeth, but if he is he wouldn't be the only one in the front office who knows what went down. That wouldn't be great for team building.
It could very well be that, because he did give a bit of control to Cherrington and Dombrowski, they got to hang themselves. We don't know. They both made some dubious choices. It would be interesting to know how much pressure they were under, or if those were theirs to own.
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Post by orion09 on Sept 29, 2019 15:43:56 GMT -5
My recollection is the same as James'. That decision as well as the Panda and Hanley deals were what did Cherington in. And it’s prob the Sale deal with a touch of Elvaldi that did in Dombrowski. That and 20-20 hindsight on not making the rumored Benintendi for Yellich deal when Miami was burning down the house. But mostly it’s Sale (which, if not made, would I believe get ownership their coveted reset. There’s a bit of a narrative that the Sale deal was the last straw for Dombrowski. One thing I haven’t seen mentioned is that Henry came out and essentially said, “It was a mistake not signing Lester, we’re not going to make that mistake again.” That makes me think the Sale deal came right from the top - or certainly wasn’t at odds with what ownership wanted. So I believe Henry when he says that Dombrowski was the wrong guy going forward (too much spending, not enough development), but I’m not sure how much the Sale deal had to do with it.
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Post by larrycook on Sept 29, 2019 20:25:04 GMT -5
Chicago has let madden go as manager. Some turmoil exists there.
Will we interview either of theo’s Chief assistants to replace desperate Dave?
Or are we going to still make a run at Theo?
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Post by vermontsox1 on Oct 8, 2019 10:46:29 GMT -5
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Oct 8, 2019 11:14:35 GMT -5
I like it. This “Gang of Friends” are having a solid run of insider decision making so far. If they are preparing the way for, and taking heat off a new boss, these are good moves.
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Post by jdb on Oct 8, 2019 11:22:06 GMT -5
Shouldn’t the new Baseball Opps or GM have a vote in these decisions? I almost think there’s one in place.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 8, 2019 11:45:30 GMT -5
Shouldn’t the new Baseball Opps or GM have a vote in these decisions? I almost think there’s one in place. There are actually 4 in place now, each responsible for their specific areas.
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steveofbradenton
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Post by steveofbradenton on Oct 8, 2019 13:32:19 GMT -5
Ray Searage or Jim Hickey sound good?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Oct 8, 2019 14:34:40 GMT -5
Ray Searage or Jim Hickey sound good? Searage coached Cole and Glasnow in Pittsburg, hard pass on that guy.
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 11, 2019 18:13:06 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Oct 11, 2019 19:57:25 GMT -5
Without having read the article yet: - Something like the Puig/Bailey trade is the sort of creativity the club needs. - Looking at the trades just from this year, there's a lot of moves around the margins of the roster - the kind of stuff Dombrowski did but not nearly as often (think, like, Colten Brewer deal, but there are like 2x as many). So yeah, I think it'd work. That said, he was making like 2x what Dombrowski was...
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 11, 2019 21:24:11 GMT -5
Without having read the article yet: - Something like the Puig/Bailey trade is the sort of creativity the club needs. - Looking at the trades just from this year, there's a lot of moves around the margins of the roster - the kind of stuff Dombrowski did but not nearly as often (think, like, Colten Brewer deal, but there are like 2x as many). So yeah, I think it'd work. That said, he was making like 2x what Dombrowski was... I think it may be closer to a Billy Beane dream of 2002 than worrying about salary.
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Post by boydhurstlovechild on Oct 12, 2019 0:32:57 GMT -5
Lot of talk out here in Los Angeles that the reason Friedman and Dodgers haven't signed a new deal is because he's contemplating the Sox gig. I would be so stoked if he came here. Doesn't make mistakes with huge contracts, and even more exciting for this website, is a master of building up the farm system. Look at their 2016 draft. I don't think you can nail it much better than that. Also saying Roberts might be canned and perhaps they'll go the Yankees Boone route and hire someone like Chase Utley. Seems like Roberts would get hired immediately by the Padres.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Oct 12, 2019 8:41:00 GMT -5
Outside of money or location why would Friedman want to come to the Red Sox? That Dodger team is set up better than any team in Baseball. Nevermind the expectations in Boston are just crazy, we expect Championships every few years now. He'd be royalty in LA for winning one, not so much in Boston. Then you have the owners who do 180s after a bad season and have flip flopped for years on how to build the teams. Henry seems to only trust a GM when they are winning. Things go bad and that trust goes right out the window and he wants another path and vision.
That Puig trade is crazy easy to make when you have MLB ready OF and SP to easily replace guys like Puig and Alex Woods no?
If he makes so many trades where are the big impact ones? Most of that roster is free agents or prospects from the system.
Are we going to give him credit for the farm system? He deserves credit for not trading it away, but the Dodgers scouting and development are the reason for the talent no?
I like Friedman and he'd be a very good hire. It's just the most impressive thing about the Dodgers is that farm system. Something Friedman isn't directly responsible for.
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iii
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Post by iii on Oct 12, 2019 12:34:56 GMT -5
Someone finally got it rigth, Peter Abarham.
Winning the World Series is all that matters.
The Dodgers have won seven consecutive division championships and assembled a player development machine that churns out high-end talent. But they still haven’t won a championship since 1988.
The Yankees have done everything right under Brian Cashman, investing in analytics and building up their farm system. But they have one championship in the last 18 seasons.
For all the cognoscenti who laud the Athletics for their enlightened frugality, their last World Series was in 1990.
The poor Twins have managed to lose 16 postseason games in a row since 2004. But that’s better than the Mariners, who were last in the postseason in 2001. Jamie Moyer, who won 20 games for that team, turns 57 next month.
The point is that championships are precious and the opportunity to win another one can’t be treated casually.
So how in the world are the Red Sox even considering the idea of trading Mookie Betts?
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Post by jimed14 on Oct 12, 2019 12:45:52 GMT -5
Someone finally got it rigth, Peter Abarham. Winning the World Series is all that matters. The Dodgers have won seven consecutive division championships and assembled a player development machine that churns out high-end talent. But they still haven’t won a championship since 1988. The Yankees have done everything right under Brian Cashman, investing in analytics and building up their farm system. But they have one championship in the last 18 seasons. For all the cognoscenti who laud the Athletics for their enlightened frugality, their last World Series was in 1990. The poor Twins have managed to lose 16 postseason games in a row since 2004. But that’s better than the Mariners, who were last in the postseason in 2001. Jamie Moyer, who won 20 games for that team, turns 57 next month. The point is that championships are precious and the opportunity to win another one can’t be treated casually. So how in the world are the Red Sox even considering the idea of trading Mookie Betts? Championships may be all that matters, but team builders can only put teams in a position to win them (by winning divisions), they cannot ever guarantee it. 2018 playoffs wRC+: Mookie Betts: 53 Xander Bogaerts: 62 Steve Pearce: 187 2019 playoffs: Cody Bellinger: 52 Didi Gregorius: 216 2018 George Springer: 247 2019 George Springer: -13 I guess if you could predict that, you'd win all the championships. But no one can.
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Post by soxjim on Oct 12, 2019 23:14:22 GMT -5
Someone finally got it rigth, Peter Abarham. Winning the World Series is all that matters. The Dodgers have won seven consecutive division championships and assembled a player development machine that churns out high-end talent. But they still haven’t won a championship since 1988. The Yankees have done everything right under Brian Cashman, investing in analytics and building up their farm system. But they have one championship in the last 18 seasons. For all the cognoscenti who laud the Athletics for their enlightened frugality, their last World Series was in 1990. The poor Twins have managed to lose 16 postseason games in a row since 2004. But that’s better than the Mariners, who were last in the postseason in 2001. Jamie Moyer, who won 20 games for that team, turns 57 next month. The point is that championships are precious and the opportunity to win another one can’t be treated casually. So how in the world are the Red Sox even considering the idea of trading Mookie Betts?His points other than the bold are spot on. But he's asking the wrong question. If the Sox thought they were a contending team then that's the right question. But if they don't feel they are a contending team unless they spend more than the owner wants, then why wouldn't they trade Mookie? I think they can be a contending team. If you trade Mookie you probably don't think you can. And if you feel you aren't then you really should trade him. But if
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Post by larrycook on Oct 13, 2019 0:14:13 GMT -5
Lot of talk out here in Los Angeles that the reason Friedman and Dodgers haven't signed a new deal is because he's contemplating the Sox gig. I would be so stoked if he came here. Doesn't make mistakes with huge contracts, and even more exciting for this website, is a master of building up the farm system. Look at their 2016 draft. I don't think you can nail it much better than that. Also saying Roberts might be canned and perhaps they'll go the Yankees Boone route and hire someone like Chase Utley. Seems like Roberts would get hired immediately by the Padres. Friedman would be a huge win for us. When he joined the dodgers they were in a similar position to us at the major league level. Bloated payroll, lots of dead weight contracts. The dodgers did have a better minor league system. Friedman put together a Short/intermediate/long range plan, surrounded himself with tons of talented guys in the front office, including some he stole from us and has won consistently while resetting the salary cap and building up the farm. Maybe he has not won it all yet, but this guy is the real deal, knows analytics, knows how to scout, draft and develop starters, and needs to be our next head of baseball operations. It will not be easy as we have a ton of sore armed pitchers, thanks desperate Dave, and a thin minor league system, but I have faith this is the guy!
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Post by marrcus on Oct 13, 2019 2:51:57 GMT -5
He is. And I would have hoped we've got by this long before now. Nobody wants to trade Betts. That said nobody thinks he should be made the highest payed player in the game. It's pretty simple.
If staying in Boston means he's going to want to be compensated that way, the RS shouldn't do it. Like Gammons has said it may not be possible to move Betts, he may just have to play out his deal. As for the new GM with all this time to consider things I wonder if ownership would consider naming their selection prior to the WS? Let's get on with it.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Oct 13, 2019 8:05:01 GMT -5
Lot of talk out here in Los Angeles that the reason Friedman and Dodgers haven't signed a new deal is because he's contemplating the Sox gig. I would be so stoked if he came here. Doesn't make mistakes with huge contracts, and even more exciting for this website, is a master of building up the farm system. Look at their 2016 draft. I don't think you can nail it much better than that. Also saying Roberts might be canned and perhaps they'll go the Yankees Boone route and hire someone like Chase Utley. Seems like Roberts would get hired immediately by the Padres. Friedman would be a huge win for us. When he joined the dodgers they were in a similar position to us at the major league level. Bloated payroll, lots of dead weight contracts. The dodgers did have a better minor league system. Friedman put together a Short/intermediate/long range plan, surrounded himself with tons of talented guys in the front office, including some he stole from us and has won consistently while resetting the salary cap and building up the farm. Maybe he has not won it all yet, but this guy is the real deal, knows analytics, knows how to scout, draft and develop starters, and needs to be our next head of baseball operations. It will not be easy as we have a ton of sore armed pitchers, thanks desperate Dave, and a thin minor league system, but I have faith this is the guy! You mean antsy Andrew, for all his genius, whose teams have won a combined 0 World Championships?
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