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Post by Chris Hatfield on Nov 4, 2019 16:15:55 GMT -5
Dewey Evans on the Modern Area ballot for the Hall next year.
2020 Modern Baseball Era Ballot Announced
Dwight Evans, BOS/BAL RF, 1972-1991
Steve Garvey, LAD/SDP 1B, 1969-1987
Tommy John, NYY/CHW/LAD/CAL/CLE/OAK SP, 1963-1989
Don Mattingly, NYY 1B, 1982-1995
Marvin Miller, Exec. director of MLB Players Association, 1966-1982
Thurman Munson, NYY C, 1969-1979
Dale Murphy, ATL/PHI/COL OF, 1976-1993
Dave Parker, PIT/CIN/OAK/MIL/CAL/TOR RF, 1973-1991
Ted Simmons, STL/MIL/ATL C, 1968-1988
Lou Whitaker, DET 2B, 1977-1995
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Post by artfuldodger on Nov 4, 2019 16:32:31 GMT -5
Just saw that Dwight Evans will be up in December for the Hall as part of the Modern Baseball Era committee. Hopefully, it is his time to get in.
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Post by artfuldodger on Nov 4, 2019 19:14:21 GMT -5
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 4, 2019 19:23:03 GMT -5
With somewhat of a watering down of the HOF recently, I'd go with Simmons & Whitaker as definites, Evans & John as bubbles.
Marvin Miller should also be there.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 4, 2019 19:28:59 GMT -5
Hope I'm wrong but I don't know that the non-analytic crowd will vote for Evans. They've already missed the boat on Tiant.
But I so hope Dewey gets in. He's very deserving. He was taking walks when nobody gave players credit for doing so. He was tremendous defensively and he became a better hitter as he aged. The power numbers were really good for that time. I'd like to see #24 for Evans get retired while he can still enjoy it.
FWIW, I'd go for Whitaker, Simmons, and Miller.
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ericmvan
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Supposed to be working on something more important
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 5, 2019 1:53:22 GMT -5
Here are the players ranked by my Hall Worthiness metric, without an adjustment for era. HW is WAR of 5 best seasons plus 1/2 of career WAR. That combination was derived empirically and does the best possible job of discriminating who's in and who's out from the pre-expansion era. I later discovered that it also does a great job separating guys who got in on the first ballot versus those who waited. Every single pre-expansion position player with an HW of more than 64.0 is is the Hall. The only missing pitcher is Wes Ferrell, and he qualifies only if you add his hitting (as you should). If you have a 64.0+, there's no coherent argument that you're "borderline" according to our current understanding of player greatness.
I've added the passed-over guys with 60.0+.
72.3 Bobby Grich 67.3 Luis Tiant
67.0 Rick Reuschel
66.7 Buddy Bell 66.3 Graig Nettles65.7 Dwight Evans, BOS/BAL RF, 1972-1991 65.6 Ted Simmons, STL/MIL/ATL C, 1968-1988 65.4 Lou Whitaker, DET 2B, 1977-1995 62.9 Keith Hernandez62.0 Thurman Munson, NYY C, 1969-1979 61.9 Sal Bando 61.4 Reggie Smith 60.5 Frank Tanana
60.4 Darrel Evans
57.2 Tommy John, NYY/CHW/LAD/CAL/CLE/OAK SP, 1963-1989 55.2 Dale Murphy, ATL/PHI/COL OF, 1976-1993 52.4 Dave Parker, PIT/CIN/OAK/MIL/CAL/TOR RF, 1973-1991 50.0 Don Mattingly, NYY 1B, 1982-1995 41.0 Steve Garvey, LAD/SDP 1B, 1969-1987 The list mostly tells you how inept baseball writers of old were at identifying players worthy of recognition. Playing 3B was almost a disqualification (Dick Allen, from the previous era, is 66.8). And compiling a high hit total was considered far more important than getting on base, hitting for power, or fielding your position well.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Nov 5, 2019 1:59:06 GMT -5
Positions players who are in the Hall with a lower HW than Dwight Evans:
Richie Ashburn Roberto Alomar Elmer Flick Paul Molitor Willie Keeler Buck Ewing Bill Terry John McGraw Monte Ward Billy Williams Jimmy Collins Ralph Kiner Bid McPhee Harmon Killebrew Billy Herman Zack Wheat Willie Stargell Roy Campanella Vladimir Guerrero Joe Medwick Jake Beckley Dave Winfield Bobby Doerr Larry Doby Tony Perez Hugh Duffy Frank Chance Sam Thompson Dave Bancroft Max Carey Earl Averill Kiki Cuyler Joe Sewell Joe Tinker Tony Lazzeri Roger Bresnahan Jim Rice Phil Rizzuto Chuck Klein Hack Wilson Ernie Lombardi Kirby Puckett Nellie Fox Johnny Evers Travis Jackson Orlando Cepeda Harry Hooper Edd Roush Sam Rice Heinie Manush Luis Aparicio Earle Combs Red Schoendienst Rabbit Maranville Lou Brock Ross Youngs Jim Bottomley George Kell Pie Traynor Freddie Lindstrom Chick Hafey Rick Ferrell Ray Schalk Bill Mazeroski High Pockets Kelly
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 5, 2019 8:43:02 GMT -5
Dwight Evans had 14 3.0+ bWAR seasons, so the consistency qualification is there easily. He's a player whose quality wasn't recognized in his time and that's used as a justification to underrate him now. "He only made three All-Star teams" is true, sure - but he also had three 5.0+ bWAR seasons where he wasn't named an All-Star!.
He was also my favorite player as a kid so I am tremendously biased here. I am right, but also tremendously biased.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Nov 5, 2019 8:51:39 GMT -5
Dwight Evans had 14 3.0+ bWAR seasons, so the consistency qualification is there easily. He's a player whose quality wasn't recognized in his time and that's used as a justification to underrate him now. "He only made three All-Star teams" is true, sure - but he also had three 5.0+ bWAR seasons where he wasn't named an All-Star!. He was also my favorite player as a kid so I am tremendously biased here. I am right, but also tremendously biased. On all-star games: Evans for his career slugged .453 in the first half, .492 in the second. In 1982 for example, it was 467 first half, 606 second, in the crucial 1986 it was .438, .529
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 5, 2019 9:01:32 GMT -5
That was a big part of it, along with the fact that nobody really cared about OBP yet. He had a .398 OBP at the break in '82, but that wasn't really on people's radar. (Also, there was just no good reason for him not to be an All-Star in '84).
The other thing that sorta hurts Evans is that his defense was great in the '70's and his bat in the '80's, but he really just had those couple years in the 1981-82 sweet spot where it all came together at the same time. The lack of interest in OBP probably hurt him as he tried to extend his career as well. In his last two seasons (the "bad" on in 1990 and the weird Orioles season in '91) he hit .283/.415/.398 against left-handed pitching. And he didn't retire by choice - he was released in Spring Training 1992 and never got signed.
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Post by ortiz34 on Nov 5, 2019 10:23:25 GMT -5
Dewey is sadly not going to get in, as much as I want him to. The thing to watch for is whether Clemens or Schilling get in. After Jeter, its kind of gets murky. If Bonds,Clemens,or Schilling arn't next. It would be Larry Walker. There are questions about him because of how much Coors Field helped. Same goes to Todd Helton. How about Andrew Jones, Gary Sheffield, Paul Konerko, or Billy Wagner.
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,962
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Post by jimoh on Nov 6, 2019 19:53:50 GMT -5
That was a big part of it, along with the fact that nobody really cared about OBP yet. He had a .398 OBP at the break in '82, but that wasn't really on people's radar. (Also, there was just no good reason for him not to be an All-Star in '84). The other thing that sorta hurts Evans is that his defense was great in the '70's and his bat in the '80's, but he really just had those couple years in the 1981-82 sweet spot where it all came together at the same time. The lack of interest in OBP probably hurt him as he tried to extend his career as well. In his last two seasons (the "bad" on in 1990 and the weird Orioles season in '91) he hit .283/.415/.398 against left-handed pitching. And he didn't retire by choice - he was released in Spring Training 1992 and never got signed. He also had some sciatica problems near the end, and could not really make the transition to 1b in part because, ironically, he couldn't throw the ball like an infielder. This is a great story by Gammons, subscription only, about the 101 degree day in July of 1980 that Evans first worked with Hriniak, with Yaz watching, and Yaz could tell he had turned a corner. I had forgotten that beanings had made him a little tentative; the story says that Hriniak's teaching gave him a reassuring sense of balance. "During the 1980s, [led mlb] in extra-base hits and ranked second to Rickey Henderson in times on base, with 2,447... led the American League in homers (256) ... second in RBI (900), total bases (2,657), and walks (919)." Competitors were Murray, Yount, Henderson, HOF. "from 1972-1991, he was first in the AL in walks, second in homers, third in RBI, second in runs scored, third in doubles." theathletic.com/1355829/2019/11/06/gammons-the-hall-of-fame-case-for-dwight-evans/
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Post by dirtdog on Nov 6, 2019 22:58:40 GMT -5
Like to see Dewey and Ted Simmons get in. Two of the most under rated players of their ERA.
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