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Worst large free agent signing ever?
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Post by bluechip on Nov 23, 2019 20:01:33 GMT -5
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 23, 2019 20:19:47 GMT -5
Is this going by total dollars, or just by what the player produced? if it's produced, I'd nominate the 2/10m deal signed by Wayne Garland way back in the winter of '77. nearly uneard of amount for a player at the time and he blew out his rotator cuff after the 1st year, hardly pitching again.
1 thing new players could take from this was he did retire after a few years and forgive some of his salary.. Good or bad. However one looks at it. believe showman Bill Veeck was the owner of the Tribe when he was inked.
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Post by djsilva on Nov 23, 2019 23:20:50 GMT -5
What, no Rusney?
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Post by bluechip on Nov 24, 2019 3:52:47 GMT -5
Personally, for me it’s that Pujols contract. He has been an absolute shell of his former self for that entire contract. It’s actually pretty sad, when he was clearly the game’s best hitter for the first decade of his career. He an albatross holding back Mike Trout’s Angels.
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Post by dmaineah on Nov 24, 2019 4:44:28 GMT -5
He’s not listed (and it was an extension) so I didn’t vote but for me I believe it will end up being Chis Sale, time will tell.
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 24, 2019 8:25:27 GMT -5
David Price shouldn't be in this conversation, and if Steve Pearce wasn't walking around with Price's WS MVP Award then he wouldn't be. Even outside the dominant playoff run, he has 10.8 bWAR in the regular season. Far from the worst FA contract of all time, I'd say that's really close to a wash. Even if he's a zero in the last three years he's a foolish inclusion.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 24, 2019 9:16:37 GMT -5
David Price shouldn't be in this conversation, and if Steve Pearce wasn't walking around with Price's WS MVP Award then he wouldn't be. Even outside the dominant playoff run, he has 10.8 bWAR in the regular season. Far from the worst FA contract of all time, I'd say that's really close to a wash. Even if he's a zero in the last three years he's a foolish inclusion. David Price for Albert Pujols, who says no?
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 24, 2019 9:36:30 GMT -5
Red Sox (foolish, overconfident): We're going to pay Carl Crawford like he's a five win player.
Me (wise, skeptical): Crawford's hitting skills still aren't that great and he's probably more like a three and a half win player.
Carl Crawford (*signs contract*): I'm actually a zero win player now.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 24, 2019 9:46:41 GMT -5
Chris Davis has been worth a total of -1.6 fWAR for the first 4 years of his 7 year $161M contract (the poll does not have the correct dollar amount). I can't believe he still has 3 more seasons. I can't believe that the Orioles haven't cut him. Playing literally anyone else would improve the team.
How is it not a run away?
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 24, 2019 10:01:57 GMT -5
Chris Davis has been worth a total of -1.6 fWAR for the first 4 years of his 7 year $161M contract (the poll does not have the correct dollar amount). I can't believe he still has 3 more seasons. I can't believe that the Orioles haven't cut him. Playing literally anyone else would improve the team. How is it not a run away? I hadn't noticed the Davis salary discrepancy. I changed my vote to Davis from Pujols. It's not a runaway though. Pujols contract is for $ 80m more and he has produced less than 1 WAR/yr. for the first 8. If the Angels and O's cut them both right now, the Angels would have the bigger total loss.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Nov 24, 2019 10:25:20 GMT -5
From a team perspective and relevant to the dollars at the time, Mike Hampton's 2000 121m 8 year contract with the Rockies was a disaster for them because they ended up eating almost all of it as he pitched for the Braves. He flat out couldn't pitch in Coors.
The Yankees paid 42m for -3 fWAR of Vernon Wells which was originally a Blue Jays disaster..
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Post by incandenza on Nov 24, 2019 10:30:54 GMT -5
I took this in the spirit of: what was the worst contract, given what the team could reasonably foresee at the time? Fielder isn't so bad by that metric; Davis, Crawford, and Ellsbury aren't completely awful; but Pujols, boy... they signed him for his age 32-41 seasons, following a year where he had already shown significant decline. What did they think was gonna happen?
I think there's a pretty good chance Bryce Harper ends up in this conversation at some point.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,720
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Post by mobaz on Nov 24, 2019 14:59:14 GMT -5
If you read the article, Chris Davis includes present value of the contract, which has a ton of deferred money.
Price is not in the same league as any of these guys.
I voted Pujols. Davis and Crawford are pretty bad. Sandoval at least had a shorter duration and total value than some.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 24, 2019 15:49:17 GMT -5
Looked at every big deal from Sandoval and up. Only two players never gave their teams a plus bwar season, Sandoval and Zimmerman. So while I want to say Sandoval, I went with Zimmerman because it was a bigger contract.
Guys like Hamilton, Pujols, Ellsbury, Fielder, Crawford, and even Davis gave at least one season of plus bwar baseball. It's hard watching Pujols, but he has put up decent bwar numbers compared to some of these guys. Ellsbury had a few decent years and even Davis had a 3 bwar season and a zero bwar season.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Nov 24, 2019 15:57:52 GMT -5
Is this going by total dollars, or just by what the player produced? if it's produced, I'd nominate the 2/10m deal signed by Wayne Garland way back in the winter of '77. nearly uneard of amount for a player at the time and he blew out his rotator cuff after the 1st year, hardly pitching again. 1 thing new players could take from this was he did retire after a few years and forgive some of his salary.. Good or bad. However one looks at it. believe showman Bill Veeck was the owner of the Tribe when he was inked. Never heard of Wayne Garland and 10 million would have been a ton in 1977, so I looked it up. I see he signed a 10 year 2.3 million deal. He was also very good in 1977 before that injury posting a 4.1 bwar season. Still a lot of money back then, but 5 million a year would have been crazy money back then.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Nov 24, 2019 18:38:20 GMT -5
Is this going by total dollars, or just by what the player produced? if it's produced, I'd nominate the 2/10m deal signed by Wayne Garland way back in the winter of '77. nearly uneard of amount for a player at the time and he blew out his rotator cuff after the 1st year, hardly pitching again. 1 thing new players could take from this was he did retire after a few years and forgive some of his salary.. Good or bad. However one looks at it. believe showman Bill Veeck was the owner of the Tribe when he was inked. Never heard of Wayne Garland and 10 million would have been a ton in 1977, so I looked it up. I see he signed a 10 year 2.3 million deal. He was also very good in 1977 before that injury posting a 4.1 bwar season. Still a lot of money back then, but 5 million a year would have been crazy money back then. That mistake was on me for not fixing after noticing my mistake. Should have been 10/2m instead. believe is longest pitching contract ever given not counting for deferred money and one of the earliest FA contracts for pitchers period. remember Messersmith, Fingers, Hunter of course earlier and that winter garland signed was the 1st kind of big season, so FA contracts were something new. Bill Campbell signed with Boston that winter and threw nearly 140IP in RELIEF and was never the same again, thanks to the worst sox manager in my time as a fan.. Don Zimmer.
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Post by jimed14 on Nov 24, 2019 19:56:32 GMT -5
I took this in the spirit of: what was the worst contract, given what the team could reasonably foresee at the time? Fielder isn't so bad by that metric; Davis, Crawford, and Ellsbury aren't completely awful; but Pujols, boy... they signed him for his age 32-41 seasons, following a year where he had already shown significant decline. What did they think was gonna happen? I think there's a pretty good chance Bryce Harper ends up in this conversation at some point. The Davis and Fielder contracts were also so insane because literally only one team was interested in signing each of them.
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Post by michael on Nov 24, 2019 22:37:04 GMT -5
I'd offer for consideration Albert FKA Joey Belle. Big got the late 90s money and had only a good first year, a damage induced poor 2nd and somewhat like Ellsbury unable to play the last three years.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 25, 2019 20:00:00 GMT -5
I took this in the spirit of: what was the worst contract, given what the team could reasonably foresee at the time? Fielder isn't so bad by that metric; Davis, Crawford, and Ellsbury aren't completely awful; but Pujols, boy... they signed him for his age 32-41 seasons, following a year where he had already shown significant decline. What did they think was gonna happen? I think there's a pretty good chance Bryce Harper ends up in this conversation at some point. Not technically a free agent signing, but Ryan Howard has to be got to be the greatest "we tried to warn you" contract of all time.
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Post by soxin8 on Nov 26, 2019 16:40:38 GMT -5
The Mike Hampton contract probably should be an option to choose. I always felt like that set the Rockies franchise back for a number of years.
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Post by patford on Nov 26, 2019 17:58:08 GMT -5
David Price shouldn't be in this conversation, and if Steve Pearce wasn't walking around with Price's WS MVP Award then he wouldn't be. Even outside the dominant playoff run, he has 10.8 bWAR in the regular season. Far from the worst FA contract of all time, I'd say that's really close to a wash. Even if he's a zero in the last three years he's a foolish inclusion. I totally agree and am really pleased to see this. Price should have been the WS MRP and if there was a post season MVP that would have been him as well. More than any other player you can say the Sox would NOT have been champions without him. It's notable to see the continuous hostility directed at Price with numerous posts saying the Sox should dump him. And yet you never see anyone suggest the Sox should dump Sale. Let me know when "the Eck" wins his next game for the Sox. BTW. I like Sale and believe he is a great pitcher when he is on. My problem with him is he has a very evident track record of wearing down and was mediocre to sub-par during the 2nd half and post season in 2018.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 26, 2019 18:29:26 GMT -5
David Price shouldn't be in this conversation, and if Steve Pearce wasn't walking around with Price's WS MVP Award then he wouldn't be. Even outside the dominant playoff run, he has 10.8 bWAR in the regular season. Far from the worst FA contract of all time, I'd say that's really close to a wash. Even if he's a zero in the last three years he's a foolish inclusion. I totally agree and am really pleased to see this. Price should have been the WS MRP and if there was a post season MVP that would have been him as well. More than any other player you can say the Sox would NOT have been champions without him. It's notable to see the continuous hostility directed at Price with numerous posts saying the Sox should dump him. And yet you never see anyone suggest the Sox should dump Sale. Let me know when "the Eck" wins his next game for the Sox. BTW. I like Sale and believe he is a great pitcher when he is on. My problem with him is he has a very evident track record of wearing down and was mediocre to sub-par during the 2nd half and post season in 2018. Yes, Price > Sale during the World Series and during the ALCS. Sale was > Price against NYY in ALDS. All of the above is a small sample size. During the past three seasons at no point has Price > Sale like at all. They were comparable last season and Sale was superior to Price in 2017 and 2018. Sale is capable of pitching like an ace the bulk of the season. Price is no longer capable of pitching like an ace except for stretches that he does have. All in all, Sale has been better the past three years. You are putting exceptional weight on the post-season. That would be like me saying that you only judge Price on Yankees starts. The fact that Sale wears down as the season goes on doesn't make Price better because when you weigh the whole season Sale has been better. As far as 2020 goes, if Sale isn't healthy, then yeah, Price should be better, but then again Price has had his injuries as well although I think Sale's health is a little bit scarier at this point. The reason Price gets hostility is because he acts like a nozzle at times, towards Eck and towards the media in general and makes it pretty clear he's not crazy about being a Red Sox as opposed to Chris Sale who does love being a Red Sox. That said, that doesn't make Price superior or inferior to Sale. Just makes it easier to root for Sale. But on the numbers alone Sale is better than Price - if health is equal. I will always be thankful that the law of averages finally found Price in the 2018 post-season and he was a huge reason why the Sox won and he would have been a deserving MVP of the WS. If Pearce didn't hit his 3rd HR in two days and his 4th extra base hit, Price would have won. I would have given it to Price but was ok with Pearce getting it. After a demoralizing loss that could have tilted the momentum back to LA, Pearce hit the big HR to tie the game and then cleared the bases to not only win the game but allow the Sox to withstand Kimbrel's adventurous 9th. Then he set the tone with a quick strike 2-run HR in the 1st in Game 5 which gave the Sox all the runs they needed, but he added a HR later on anyways. I'll never consider Price's contract a bust. The Sox got their money's worth even if they never truly do recoup true value (what free agent ever does give full true value?)
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Post by James Dunne on Nov 27, 2019 11:59:45 GMT -5
The reason Price gets hostility is because he acts like a nozzle at times, towards Eck and towards the media in general and makes it pretty clear he's not crazy about being a Red Sox as opposed to Chris Sale who does love being a Red Sox. This feels very much like projection. You like one player more than the other, which is fine. The idea that Sale loves being a Red Sox and is a true believer while Price is just some merc? That's you reflecting how you feel about them as being their actual feelings. Chris Sale certainly isn't a warm-and-fuzzy "I LOVE BOSTON THIS IS MY CITY" David Ortiz type, on any level. It's not his style, and we shouldn't expect it to be. So using it as a reason to like him reflects something in you, not him. The point wasn't that Price has been *better* than Sale - it's that Price gets all kinds of grief and Sale doesn't, despite some similar durability issues and Price being the one, rather than Sale, who was so good in the playoffs. And, as an aside... I think Eck is a lot of fun as a commentator, but the list of people and players who didn't get along with him over the last 45 years in the game is a lot longer than David Price. People keep going back to it, and it really feels like an excuse for people already pre-disposed to having an issue with Price for one reason or another.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Nov 27, 2019 12:17:32 GMT -5
The reason Price gets hostility is because he acts like a nozzle at times, towards Eck and towards the media in general and makes it pretty clear he's not crazy about being a Red Sox as opposed to Chris Sale who does love being a Red Sox. This feels very much like projection. You like one player more than the other, which is fine. The idea that Sale loves being a Red Sox and is a true believer while Price is just some merc? That's you reflecting how you feel about them as being their actual feelings. Chris Sale certainly isn't a warm-and-fuzzy "I LOVE BOSTON THIS IS MY CITY" David Ortiz type, on any level. It's not his style, and we shouldn't expect it to be. So using it as a reason to like him reflects something in you, not him. The point wasn't that Price has been *better* than Sale - it's that Price gets all kinds of grief and Sale doesn't, despite some similar durability issues and Price being the one, rather than Sale, who was so good in the playoffs. And, as an aside... I think Eck is a lot of fun as a commentator, but the list of people and players who didn't get along with him over the last 45 years in the game is a lot longer than David Price. People keep going back to it, and it really feels like an excuse for people already pre-disposed to having an issue with Price for one reason or another. I don't feel like I'm projecting anything. Sale has never been anything but complimentary of the Red Sox, the fans, staying a Red Sox, etc. David Price has a very prickly personality and comes off badly. It's not hard to remember his back and forth with David Ortiz when Big Papi had the audacity to hit two playoff HRs off of him. His stuff with Eckersley is embarrassing. His "I hold all the cards now" thing after they just won the World Series made me cringe and wish they were interviewing somebody else. Everything felt jovial and happy and there he is with a sneer. I mean, was the media supposed to pretend that he hadn't been 0-9 in post-season starts and that those 3 wins he got were huge? I mean, really? Just say, I'm so glad I was able to make good on my promise about saving the post-seasons wins for the Red Sox. If he says something like that, well that's classy and I applaud. He does his "nah, nah, nah, nah" thing and I don't respect that honestly. I find it much easier to root for Sale than for Price personally. That is my opinion. I don't think I'm in the minority with this opinion. All that said, that has NOTHING to do with who's been a better pitcher, etc. Has nothing to do with any on-field type of stuff. I always got the sense that Sale has wanted to stick around and that Price wishes he could have had this money with just about any other team in baseball other than the Red Sox. You may say it's projecting, and that's fine, but I do listen to what these guys say and watch their body language when they talk. Sale can be ornery, but normally he's too busy beating himself up to be rude to others. He'll get silly with things such as cutting up uniforms or making up belly button ring injuries if he feels that he's at a competitive disadvantage. Again that's my opinion. I think that's a more popular opinion than not, but that doesn't make me right or your opinion any less valid.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Nov 27, 2019 12:31:00 GMT -5
His "I hold all the cards now" thing after they just won the World Series made me cringe and wish they were interviewing somebody else. Everything felt jovial and happy and there he is with a sneer. I mean, was the media supposed to pretend that he hadn't been 0-9 in post-season starts and that those 3 wins he got were huge? I mean, really? Just say, I'm so glad I was able to make good on my promise about saving the post-seasons wins for the Red Sox. If he says something like that, well that's classy and I applaud. He does his "nah, nah, nah, nah" thing and I don't respect that honestly. I mean, god forbid a player ever admits they're thinking the thing that everyone knows they're thinking.
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