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2020 Hall of Fame - Miller, Simmons in, (+Jeter, Walker)
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 8, 2019 20:33:01 GMT -5
Pete Abraham @peteabe · The Modern Era committee elected Marvin Miller and Ted Simmons to the Hall of Fame.
Dwight Evans did not make it. . . . . Bernie Sanders also didn't make it.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 8, 2019 20:44:39 GMT -5
I'm disappointed that Dwight Evans didn't make it. I don't believe this is the homer in me but I truly believe that Dwight Evans and Luis Tiant should be in the HOF.
I was happy that Ted Simmons was elected.
Marvin Miller should have been in a long time ago.
If I had to vote, I probably would have voted for four living players (although like I said Miller should have already been in). My votes would have went for Evans, Simmons, Whitaker, and Tommy John.
While I'm at it, I still think it's wrong that Buck O'Neil is not in the HOF for all around contributions to the game (including his scouting).
I think Gil Hodges should be in. I also think Bobby Grich should have gotten a much closer look than he has.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 8, 2019 20:56:58 GMT -5
Jayson Stark @jaysonst · 24m Voting results from the 16-person Modern Era Committee's Hall of Fame balloting (12 votes needed for election):
Ted Simmons 13 Marvin Miller 12 Dwight Evans 8 Dave Parker 7 Steve Garvey 6 Lou Whitaker 6
Results not released for remaining candidates
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 8, 2019 22:40:21 GMT -5
keithlaw @keithlaw ·
I'm glad Simmons and Miller got in, but this system of committees is consistently terrible, and the two most qualified player candidates (Whitaker and Evans) didn't get in.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Dec 8, 2019 22:49:00 GMT -5
keithlaw @keithlaw · I'm glad Simmons and Miller got in, but this system of committees is consistently terrible, and the two most qualified player candidates (Whitaker and Evans) didn't get in. Can't agree more on Evans and Sweet Lou not getting in. Those 2 deserved it and have for years. Wrote long post on MLBTR regarding Whitaker and not going to do the entire thing again, but just being half of probably the greatest long term DP combo of the last half century alone was enough reason with Alan Trammel. Both had the glove and bat for years. As for why Jim Kaat never gets mentioned any longer and Tommy John does.. That one is also baffling. I saw both pitch for years and Kaat was just as good, final career numbers are very close also.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Dec 9, 2019 0:12:33 GMT -5
Pete Abraham @peteabe · The Modern Era committee elected Marvin Miller and Ted Simmons to the Hall of Fame. Dwight Evans did not make it. . . . . Bernie Sanders also didn't make it.Haha, close but no cigar.... Rich DubroffMLB @richdubroffmlb · Marvin Miller is the first graduate of Brooklyn's James Madison High School to be elected to the Hall of Fame. Other notable graduates are Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Bernie Sanders, Marty Glickman, Frank Torre, Andrew Dice Clay,
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Post by jimed14 on Dec 9, 2019 5:23:03 GMT -5
keithlaw @keithlaw · I'm glad Simmons and Miller got in, but this system of committees is consistently terrible, and the two most qualified player candidates (Whitaker and Evans) didn't get in. Can't agree more on Evans and Sweet Lou not getting in. Those 2 deserved it and have for years. Wrote long post on MLBTR regarding Whitaker and not going to do the entire thing again, but just being half of probably the greatest long term DP combo of the last half century alone was enough reason with Alan Trammel. Both had the glove and bat for years. As for why Jim Kaat never gets mentioned any longer and Tommy John does.. That one is also baffling. I saw both pitch for years and Kaat was just as good, final career numbers are very close also. Well, Whitaker wasn't named in the title of a song like Johnny Evers.
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Post by bluechip on Jan 22, 2020 10:33:39 GMT -5
Jeter came one vote shy of unanimous yesterday. Walker made it.
Schilling probably makes it next year.
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Post by manfred on Jan 22, 2020 11:30:42 GMT -5
Walker is not a good selection. Guy played over 150 games once. Racked up numbers in Colorado, but still had only 2,160 hits. He was a very, very good player, but HOF?
And... who didn’t vote for Jeter? Just stupid.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 22, 2020 11:36:12 GMT -5
Walker is not a good selection. Guy played over 150 games once. Racked up numbers in Colorado, but still had only 2,160 hits. He was a very, very good player, but HOF? And... who didn’t vote for Jeter? Just stupid. Just someone trying to make a point.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Jan 22, 2020 11:37:34 GMT -5
Walker is not a good selection. Guy played over 150 games once. Racked up numbers in Colorado, but still had only 2,160 hits. He was a very, very good player, but HOF? And... who didn’t vote for Jeter? Just stupid. Just someone trying to make a point. Jeter was a lock, you gotta do what you have to to make sure Brad Penny gets representation
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 22, 2020 11:47:54 GMT -5
16 voters left of GREG MADDUX when he was elected. Eight voters left off Cal Ripken, who was basically Jeter's offense, plus more power, actual shortstop defense, and not being such a me-first primadonna that he actually moved off shortstop when it was clear how much he was killing his team there. Can't believe anyone is upset about Derek Jeter, something like the 80th best player in history, not being unanimous.
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Post by manfred on Jan 22, 2020 11:54:43 GMT -5
16 voters left of GREG MADDUX when he was elected. Eight voters left off Cal Ripken, who was basically Jeter's offense, plus more power, actual shortstop defense, and not being such a me-first primadonna that he actually moved off shortstop when it was clear how much he was killing his team there. Can't believe anyone is upset about Derek Jeter, something like the 80th best player in history, not being unanimous. I’m not upset. The Hall is largely a fiasco. But it is another example of its stupidity. If not moving off of shortstop is me-first, not voting for obvious first ballot guy is worst form of voter me-first. No excuse.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 22, 2020 11:55:48 GMT -5
Walker is not a good selection. Guy played over 150 games once. Racked up numbers in Colorado, but still had only 2,160 hits. He was a very, very good player, but HOF? And... who didn’t vote for Jeter? Just stupid. Career road numbers: Larry Walker .278/.370/.495 Jim Rice .277/.330/.459 Dave Winfield .289/.356/.485 Reggie Jackson .268/.362/.499 And hits? As the standard? In this day and age? He twice led the league in OBP, finished Top five four other times. Who cares about his number of hits?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 22, 2020 12:05:08 GMT -5
Walker is not a good selection. Guy played over 150 games once. Racked up numbers in Colorado, but still had only 2,160 hits. He was a very, very good player, but HOF? And... who didn’t vote for Jeter? Just stupid. Career road numbers: Larry Walker .278/.370/.495 Jim Rice .277/.330/.459 Dave Winfield .289/.356/.485 Reggie Jackson .268/.362/.499 And hits? As the standard? In this day and age? He twice led the league in OBP, finished Top five four other times. Who cares about his number of hits? Also not sure why 150 games is the standard. He played 127 or more games 11 times. He played until he was 38. If not playing 150 games every year got him the 325 games he played from his age 36-38 seasons, then that was smart, not something to knock him for.
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Post by levi on Jan 22, 2020 12:16:15 GMT -5
16 voters left of GREG MADDUX when he was elected. Eight voters left off Cal Ripken, who was basically Jeter's offense, plus more power, actual shortstop defense, and not being such a me-first primadonna that he actually moved off shortstop when it was clear how much he was killing his team there. Can't believe anyone is upset about Derek Jeter, something like the 80th best player in history, not being unanimous. Exactly. He's actually probably not even the 100th best player in history. Even though he was consistent at the plate, he was one of the worst defensive SS in his era. Since the inception of DRS, Jeter had the worst DRS total of -152.
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Post by manfred on Jan 22, 2020 12:19:06 GMT -5
Hits should be a standard. They demonstrate long term excellence. And games matter... can’t be a HOFer from the DL.
My point is that Walker’s stats are not significantly better than a LOT of guys from that era. Heck, both Jim Edmonds and Ellis Burks should wonder where the love is. John Olerud had numbers akin to Walker. Juan Gonzalez, 2 MVPs, more HRs, .295 career BA, 132 career OPS+ etc etc.
I’ve said before: I’m a definite small-Hall guy. It is for legends. Larry Walker was a very, very good player, but no one turns their lonely eyes to him.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 22, 2020 12:27:03 GMT -5
16 voters left of GREG MADDUX when he was elected. Eight voters left off Cal Ripken, who was basically Jeter's offense, plus more power, actual shortstop defense, and not being such a me-first primadonna that he actually moved off shortstop when it was clear how much he was killing his team there. Can't believe anyone is upset about Derek Jeter, something like the 80th best player in history, not being unanimous. I'm certainly not mad that Jeter wasn't unanimous, but it makes it all the weirder that Mariano Rivera was the first, and so far only, unanimous choice. He certainly deserved to be in the Hall but there were non-crazy arguments against it - only a reliever, pitched fewer than 1300 innings in his career, paltry WAR total, had only one pitch, and you could very legitimately argue that there were 10 more deserving guys on last year's Hall of Fame ballot. It's so surprising to me that those arguments didn't win out with a single voter. I would enjoy it, though, if the one person who abstained from voting in Jeter did so on grounds of his lack of integrity.
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Post by incandenza on Jan 22, 2020 12:39:02 GMT -5
Hits should be a standard. They demonstrate long term excellence. And games matter... can’t be a HOFer from the DL. My point is that Walker’s stats are not significantly better than a LOT of guys from that era. Heck, both Jim Edmonds and Ellis Burks should wonder where the love is. John Olerud had numbers akin to Walker. Juan Gonzalez, 2 MVPs, more HRs, .295 career BA, 132 career OPS+ etc etc. I’ve said before: I’m a definite small-Hall guy. It is for legends. Larry Walker was a very, very good player, but no one turns their lonely eyes to him. Career wRC+, which corrects for ballpark effects: Walker - 140 Edmonds - 132 Olerud - 130 Gonzalez - 129 Burks - 125 Walker was meaningfully better offensively than all those guys, and he was also better defensively than all but Edmonds. (And now that you point it out... Edmonds really should have gotten more of a look.)
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 22, 2020 12:40:38 GMT -5
Hits should be a standard. They demonstrate long term excellence. And games matter... can’t be a HOFer from the DL. My point is that Walker’s stats are not significantly better than a LOT of guys from that era. Heck, both Jim Edmonds and Ellis Burks should wonder where the love is. John Olerud had numbers akin to Walker. Juan Gonzalez, 2 MVPs, more HRs, .295 career BA, 132 career OPS+ etc etc. I’ve said before: I’m a definite small-Hall guy. It is for legends. Larry Walker was a very, very good player, but no one turns their lonely eyes to him. Times on base demonstrates long term excellence, not hits. By your standard, players should be swinging at bad pitches instead of walking. That's a great way to become a worse hitter. In a plate appearance that results in a walk, the player has a 100% chance of reaching first base. In a plate appearance that results in the batter putting the ball in play, the player has about a 30-35% chance of reaching first base. And yeah, he could move beyond first base, but swinging at pitches out of the strike zone isn't a good way to do that. I understand the old school way of thinking to a point. But really simple concepts like this should be understood by everyone once it's explained the first time.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 22, 2020 12:47:35 GMT -5
16 voters left of GREG MADDUX when he was elected. Eight voters left off Cal Ripken, who was basically Jeter's offense, plus more power, actual shortstop defense, and not being such a me-first primadonna that he actually moved off shortstop when it was clear how much he was killing his team there. Can't believe anyone is upset about Derek Jeter, something like the 80th best player in history, not being unanimous. I'm certainly not mad that Jeter wasn't unanimous, but it makes it all the weirder that Mariano Rivera was the first, and so far only, unanimous choice. He certainly deserved to be in the Hall but there were non-crazy arguments against it - only a reliever, pitched fewer than 1300 innings in his career, paltry WAR total, had only one pitch, and you could very legitimately argue that there were 10 more deserving guys on last year's Hall of Fame ballot. It's so surprising to me that those arguments didn't win out with a single voter. I would enjoy it, though, if the one person who abstained from voting in Jeter did so on grounds of his lack of integrity. I think it's somewhat disrespectful to all of the far superior players throughout baseball history to vote someone in unanimously over them. Someone like Mike Trout should have been the first one because he's the only guy who could stand up to historical greats like Ruth, Williams, Mays, Aaron, etc. Mariano Rivera is a failed starter who wouldn't even have been in the majors except for the era he pitched in. And Jeter isn't even half the shortstop Honus Wagner was. Jeter was a borderline HOF player, not a unanimous first ballot one.
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Post by Canseco on Jan 22, 2020 12:50:34 GMT -5
Jeter drinks his own pee.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 22, 2020 12:52:22 GMT -5
Times on base demonstrates long term excellence, Agree strongly. Jeter was a borderline HOF player. Which is why this is also off the mark.
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Post by manfred on Jan 22, 2020 12:55:54 GMT -5
Hits should be a standard. They demonstrate long term excellence. And games matter... can’t be a HOFer from the DL. My point is that Walker’s stats are not significantly better than a LOT of guys from that era. Heck, both Jim Edmonds and Ellis Burks should wonder where the love is. John Olerud had numbers akin to Walker. Juan Gonzalez, 2 MVPs, more HRs, .295 career BA, 132 career OPS+ etc etc. I’ve said before: I’m a definite small-Hall guy. It is for legends. Larry Walker was a very, very good player, but no one turns their lonely eyes to him. Times on base demonstrates long term excellence, not hits. By your standard, players should be swinging at bad pitches instead of walking. That's a great way to become a worse hitter. In a plate appearance that results in a walk, the player has a 100% chance of reaching first base. In a plate appearance that results in the batter putting the ball in play, the player has about a 30-35% chance of reaching first base. And yeah, he could move beyond first base, but swinging at pitches out of the strike zone isn't a good way to do that. I understand the old school way of thinking to a point. But really simple concepts like this should be understood by everyone once it's explained the first time. I don’t disagree, exactly.... I did not mean hits exclusively. But I’d say, to paraphrase an old saw, you shouldn’t walk into the HOF. I am not paying to watch guys walk, smart as it may be. Still, sure, overall times on base is key. But lots of that should be hits.
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Post by manfred on Jan 22, 2020 13:00:02 GMT -5
I'm certainly not mad that Jeter wasn't unanimous, but it makes it all the weirder that Mariano Rivera was the first, and so far only, unanimous choice. He certainly deserved to be in the Hall but there were non-crazy arguments against it - only a reliever, pitched fewer than 1300 innings in his career, paltry WAR total, had only one pitch, and you could very legitimately argue that there were 10 more deserving guys on last year's Hall of Fame ballot. It's so surprising to me that those arguments didn't win out with a single voter. I would enjoy it, though, if the one person who abstained from voting in Jeter did so on grounds of his lack of integrity. I think it's somewhat disrespectful to all of the far superior players throughout baseball history to vote someone in unanimously over them. Someone like Mike Trout should have been the first one because he's the only guy who could stand up to historical greats like Ruth, Williams, Mays, Aaron, etc. Mariano Rivera is a failed starter who wouldn't even have been in the majors except for the era he pitched in. And Jeter isn't even half the shortstop Honus Wagner was. Jeter was a borderline HOF player, not a unanimous first ballot one. This is the argument that drives me crazy. Because obvious guys weren’t unanimous, everyone forever shouldn’t be. Then why not have a ceremonial blank ballot that is ritually burned before voting? Compounding silliness is, well, silly. Absolutely obvious HOFers are actually somewhat rare, but when they come along, it takes a truly contrary voter to deny it. If Derek Jeter is not a HOFer, shut it down... and I hate the guy.
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