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Post by soxcentral on Dec 30, 2019 6:55:25 GMT -5
Didn't see a relevant thread for this...
Hoping, just as last winter, we can add one strong back end reliever to our current mix. This would be a nice fit if we could pull it off, IMO.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,961
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Post by cdj on Dec 30, 2019 11:34:28 GMT -5
Cape boyzzzz!
Let’s get Alex Powers from the Reds and get the party started! He struck me out on 3 pitches, very uncompetitive at-bat lol
Good to see some of these cape guys get so far. Not a lot of kids here these days and the high school ball is so-so
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Post by Smittyw on Dec 30, 2019 12:18:56 GMT -5
Guy from Massachusetts might want to pitch for Red Sox, but they probably won't pay for him... big (by this offseason's standards) if true.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 30, 2019 13:48:07 GMT -5
Guy from Massachusetts might want to pitch for Red Sox, but they probably won't pay for him... big (by this offseason's standards) if true. Not really surprising TBH. They need to lose more than $30 million of salary. They had little choice but to sign a guy like Perez to fill innings and I was surprised to see them spend $3 million on Peraza. Unfortunately, I think that signals that he will get a lot of ABs as opposed to just being a utility guy because for $0.5 million they could use Hernandez, Lin, or whoever and arguably get similar results. The Sox must think Peraza will match his career best figures with the Reds or it doesn't make sense spending that kind of money. Relating this back to the pen, they're not going to be able to spend substantial $ to improve the pen. Maybe then can spend $2 million or $3 million for an established guy? But Cichek will proably fetch more than that and if that's indeed the case, it's too bad but the Sox will not be able to sign him. It's really that kind of an offseason. Not a lot of fun.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Dec 30, 2019 16:36:32 GMT -5
Darwinzon Hernandez for a full season could be difference maker without adding salary. Maybe Tanner Houk could be introduced in a relief role if he looks strong enough in the spring, but they may well need him as a 5th starter once the salary reduction impact is complete.
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Post by telson13 on Dec 31, 2019 0:39:07 GMT -5
Darwinzon Hernandez for a full season could be difference maker without adding salary. Maybe Tanner Houk could be introduced in a relief role if he looks strong enough in the spring, but they may well need him as a 5th starter once the salary reduction impact is complete. It’s certainly a possibility. I think both Houck and Mata could be broken in in an opener-style situation in the 5 spot, providing bulk innings but also serving as middle-late options (6-8th inning). Feltman might also be a contributor if he rebounds from last year. I think with full years for Darwinzon and Taylor, maybe some rebound from Barnes and Brasier, more solid work from Walden and Workman (who I think could still be very, very good given that he had a clear approach change that explains his performance)...the bullpen could be quite solid.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 31, 2019 5:18:28 GMT -5
Guy from Massachusetts might want to pitch for Red Sox, but they probably won't pay for him... big (by this offseason's standards) if true. Not really surprising TBH. They need to lose more than $30 million of salary. They had little choice but to sign a guy like Perez to fill innings and I was surprised to see them spend $3 million on Peraza. Unfortunately, I think that signals that he will get a lot of ABs as opposed to just being a utility guy because for $0.5 million they could use Hernandez, Lin, or whoever and arguably get similar results. The Sox must think Peraza will match his career best figures with the Reds or it doesn't make sense spending that kind of money. Saw a great tweet on Twitter saying- "it seems like the whole roster construction is being held hostage until Price is traded." Completely agreed with that. Says a lot about Peraza and Perez that they had some money for them, but none for absolutely nothing else. Not even a backup catcher.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 31, 2019 5:24:13 GMT -5
Wouldn't surprise me to see Darwinzon closing games in June the latest.
If Cora takes a page out of his old manager Francona's book, he'll have Darwinzon closing the first save oportunity of the season and displacing Workman or whoever for that closer role (aka Papelbon in instead of Foulke). I think Cora was even a part of that 2005 team too. Papelbon got his taste in the majors in 2004. He had no closing experience but he was the most talented pitcher they had. Darwinzon got his taste last year and has no closing experience.
Darwinzon is the Red Sox' version of Billy Wagner. They'll need a second guy to close games to fill innings, but he's as good as they come in this bullpen and it's time for him to take over that role for the next 6 years.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Dec 31, 2019 7:26:27 GMT -5
Darwinzon Hernandez for a full season could be difference maker without adding salary. Maybe Tanner Houk could be introduced in a relief role if he looks strong enough in the spring, but they may well need him as a 5th starter once the salary reduction impact is complete. It’s certainly a possibility. I think both Houck and Mata could be broken in in an opener-style situation in the 5 spot, providing bulk innings but also serving as middle-late options (6-8th inning). Feltman might also be a contributor if he rebounds from last year. I think with full years for Darwinzon and Taylor, maybe some rebound from Barnes and Brasier, more solid work from Walden and Workman (who I think could still be very, very good given that he had a clear approach change that explains his performance)...the bullpen could be quite solid. I forgot all about Feltman. Yes, that would be terrific if he turned it around and rose quickly !
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Post by voiceofreason on Dec 31, 2019 7:31:00 GMT -5
Wouldn't surprise me to see Darwinzon closing games in June the latest. If Cora takes a page out of his old manager Francona's book, he'll have Darwinzon closing the first save oportunity of the season and displacing Workman or whoever for that closer role (aka Papelbon in instead of Foulke). I think Cora was even a part of that 2005 team too. Papelbon got his taste in the majors in 2004. He had no closing experience but he was the most talented pitcher they had. Darwinzon got his taste last year and has no closing experience. Darwinzon is the Red Sox' version of Billy Wagner. They'll need a second guy to close games to fill innings, but he's as good as they come in this bullpen and it's time for him to take over that role for the next 6 years. Something we can agree on, Darwinzon could be huge or nothing at all. Still young unproven but the potential is their to be a closer.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 31, 2019 8:26:19 GMT -5
Wouldn't surprise me to see Darwinzon closing games in June the latest. If Cora takes a page out of his old manager Francona's book, he'll have Darwinzon closing the first save oportunity of the season and displacing Workman or whoever for that closer role (aka Papelbon in instead of Foulke). I think Cora was even a part of that 2005 team too. Papelbon got his taste in the majors in 2004. He had no closing experience but he was the most talented pitcher they had. Darwinzon got his taste last year and has no closing experience. Darwinzon is the Red Sox' version of Billy Wagner. They'll need a second guy to close games to fill innings, but he's as good as they come in this bullpen and it's time for him to take over that role for the next 6 years. I think you meant 2005 as far as Papelbon goes. I could see Hernandez getting some closing opportunities, but his control is so spotty it's kind of hard to envision him walking the tightrope as a closer. Maybe later in the year if he succeeds in high leverage setup situations, he'll get a shot at closing. I just don't see it now. I think Papelbon was more of a finished product when he got his chance. I've yet to see Hernandez overcome his control demons. And I know you didn't mean a direct comparison to Wagner, but I don't see where he's comparable to Billy Wagner at all. I guess I just don't see it. Wagner was a smallish closer with good command who's borderline HOFer. Hernandez is just one of many guys with an electric arm and very little semblence of control/command and could go either way as a major league pitcher.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 31, 2019 10:52:40 GMT -5
Wouldn't surprise me to see Darwinzon closing games in June the latest. If Cora takes a page out of his old manager Francona's book, he'll have Darwinzon closing the first save oportunity of the season and displacing Workman or whoever for that closer role (aka Papelbon in instead of Foulke). I think Cora was even a part of that 2005 team too. Papelbon got his taste in the majors in 2004. He had no closing experience but he was the most talented pitcher they had. Darwinzon got his taste last year and has no closing experience. Darwinzon is the Red Sox' version of Billy Wagner. They'll need a second guy to close games to fill innings, but he's as good as they come in this bullpen and it's time for him to take over that role for the next 6 years. Papelbon was a college reliever/closer at Mississippi State who the Red Sox were converting to a starting pitcher while in the minors. Based on his comments, he preferred and felt more comfortable as a closer.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 31, 2019 12:18:21 GMT -5
Papelbon was a college reliever/closer at Mississippi State who the Red Sox were converting to a starting pitcher while in the minors. Based on his comments, he preferred and felt more comfortable as a closer. He also did walk seven and a half batters per nine innings last year. I like the guy but if anything he's more of a middle innings guy who's used in situations where you'd rather give up the walk than the hit.
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Post by James Dunne on Dec 31, 2019 12:25:16 GMT -5
Darwinzon is the Red Sox' version of Billy Wagner. He's not in the Hall, but this gets a thwap with the nerf gun. That's a totally unreasonable expectation for the dude, Wagner's probably the second best reliever of the last 20 years. Wagner was a smallish closer with good command who's borderline HOFer. . Ehhhh, I don't really agree with that. Wagner was kind of a lefty version of Kimbrel's good seasons, only with consistency. He didn't always hit his spots, but his fastball velocity and slider velocity/movement were so superb that it didn't matter. - he was basically throwing his FB 100 and his slider 88-90 in his prime. Hitters had to guess one and were hopeless when wrong, even if he wasn't staying in the zone. Physical differences aside, that's a similar profile to Hernandez (though Hernandez doesn't have the same slider velocity)... but as we know, you can't just project a prospect to be the best sort of player with a certain profile.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Dec 31, 2019 13:18:50 GMT -5
Rivera was better but Wagner was more influential.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Dec 31, 2019 13:58:48 GMT -5
To be clear, if Lee Smith and Trevor Hoffman get a pass to the HoF, at the very least Wagner deserves consideration. Hernandez has a few hills to climb before he gets there.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 31, 2019 14:38:13 GMT -5
Papelbon was a college reliever/closer at Mississippi State who the Red Sox were converting to a starting pitcher while in the minors. Based on his comments, he preferred and felt more comfortable as a closer. He also did walk seven and a half batters per nine innings last year. I like the guy but if anything he's more of a middle innings guy who's used in situations where you'd rather give up the walk than the hit. ... Don't let reading get in the way of replying...
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Post by DesignatedForAssignment on Dec 31, 2019 14:46:57 GMT -5
Peraza, 2B. Can pitch. 9th man in the bullpen.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 13,961
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Post by cdj on Dec 31, 2019 15:10:05 GMT -5
Wasn’t billy Wagner a righty for a bit or something?
Maybe that right arm is fresh and he can be our 8th inning guy
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Dec 31, 2019 15:11:11 GMT -5
Darwinzon is the Red Sox' version of Billy Wagner. He's not in the Hall, but this gets a thwap with the nerf gun. That's a totally unreasonable expectation for the dude, Wagner's probably the second best reliever of the last 20 years. Wagner was a smallish closer with good command who's borderline HOFer. . Ehhhh, I don't really agree with that. Wagner was kind of a lefty version of Kimbrel's good seasons, only with consistency. He didn't always hit his spots, but his fastball velocity and slider velocity/movement were so superb that it didn't matter. - he was basically throwing his FB 100 and his slider 88-90 in his prime. Hitters had to guess one and were hopeless when wrong, even if he wasn't staying in the zone. Physical differences aside, that's a similar profile to Hernandez (though Hernandez doesn't have the same slider velocity)... but as we know, you can't just project a prospect to be the best sort of player with a certain profile. Good command is stretching it but compared to Hernandez, Wagner is Greg Maddux-like.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Dec 31, 2019 15:29:06 GMT -5
Wasn’t billy Wagner a righty for a bit or something? Maybe that right arm is fresh and he can be our 8th inning guy He was/is a righty who learned to throw left-handed when he was young due to an injured right arm. Would be interesting to see him try.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Dec 31, 2019 15:47:42 GMT -5
Threw the Wagner comparisons to Darwinzon because of the age (he's 22 and shouldn't see another game in the minors) and stuff. Even if he doesn't reach it, Boston would have had it's own light copy of him in Darwinzon.
Wagner is the best left handed reliever in MLB history so far and he's a HOF in my book. That's what I think Darwinzon can be with good health.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 1, 2020 16:21:11 GMT -5
Just my two cents but isn't Hernandez more like Barnes? I truly believe Papelbon could have been a very good starter and he was a top 100 guy for two years. Barnes keeps getting better, but it's a slow process and his issues still pop up at times.
If you really want to compete this year it makes sense to add a guy or two. You can't expect everyone to be the same as last year when it looks like we had a bunch of guys playing at levels they never have before like Braiser in 2018.
Even if Workman is a new pitcher he's not going to basically give up no HRs again and he's add velocity issues to start most years. Getting better as the year goes along.
I'd also point out that our bullpen last year had a lot of easy innings and wasn't that good in high leverage. So a proven guy makes sense unless you want to spend a 1/3 of a season figuring out who is going to be good this year.
I'm not a fan of a opener or bullpen games as a regular plan, just not enough data to show it works. Plus it puts a ton of pressure on the coaches and you need to cycle a ton of guys up and down so you have enough arms. That being said, the one thing we have a ton of is bullpen arms. Guys that can go multiple innings. It would be an easier way to break in guys like Houck having to go 3-4 innings and not 5-6 innings. Hernandez needs innings. I'd be interested to see if combining two guys like Houck and Hernandez gives you 5-7 innings every 5 days. We have a good amount of guys like that. Can go multiple innings, yet don't seem to be actual starters that can go 5-7 innings.
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Post by oldfaithful2019 on Jan 1, 2020 19:53:53 GMT -5
Just my two cents but isn't Hernandez more like Barnes? I truly believe Papelbon could have been a very good starter and he was a top 100 guy for two years. Barnes keeps getting better, but it's a slow process and his issues still pop up at times. If you really want to compete this year it makes sense to add a guy or two. You can't expect everyone to be the same as last year when it looks like we had a bunch of guys playing at levels they never have before like Braiser in 2018. Even if Workman is a new pitcher he's not going to basically give up no HRs again and he's add velocity issues to start most years. Getting better as the year goes along. I'd also point out that our bullpen last year had a lot of easy innings and wasn't that good in high leverage. So a proven guy makes sense unless you want to spend a 1/3 of a season figuring out who is going to be good this year. I'm not a fan of a opener or bullpen games as a regular plan, just not enough data to show it works. Plus it puts a ton of pressure on the coaches and you need to cycle a ton of guys up and down so you have enough arms. That being said, the one thing we have a ton of is bullpen arms. Guys that can go multiple innings. It would be an easier way to break in guys like Houck having to go 3-4 innings and not 5-6 innings. Hernandez needs innings. I'd be interested to see if combining two guys like Houck and Hernandez gives you 5-7 innings every 5 days. We have a good amount of guys like that. Can go multiple innings, yet don't seem to be actual starters that can go 5-7 innings. I really like your idea of bringing along Houk/ Hernandez in a job share manner. Maybe even alternate who gets the start each go round to expose both to 2nd time around the order opportunities. The best outcome from this would be two young starting pitchers ready to take on the 5-7 inning load in 2021. Assuming a 12 pitcher staff, that still leaves 6 relievers available each game without using those two. Potentially they could be used for an inning here and there between start shares. I hate to see Hernandez typed as a reliever when his power arm and body suggest he could handle a 100 pitch workload at some point. Of course he does need to learn to get more of those pitches in the zone and add more pitches to his repertoire.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 2, 2020 7:55:46 GMT -5
Just my two cents but isn't Hernandez more like Barnes? I truly believe Papelbon could have been a very good starter and he was a top 100 guy for two years. Barnes keeps getting better, but it's a slow process and his issues still pop up at times. If you really want to compete this year it makes sense to add a guy or two. You can't expect everyone to be the same as last year when it looks like we had a bunch of guys playing at levels they never have before like Braiser in 2018. Even if Workman is a new pitcher he's not going to basically give up no HRs again and he's add velocity issues to start most years. Getting better as the year goes along. I'd also point out that our bullpen last year had a lot of easy innings and wasn't that good in high leverage. So a proven guy makes sense unless you want to spend a 1/3 of a season figuring out who is going to be good this year. I'm not a fan of a opener or bullpen games as a regular plan, just not enough data to show it works. Plus it puts a ton of pressure on the coaches and you need to cycle a ton of guys up and down so you have enough arms. That being said, the one thing we have a ton of is bullpen arms. Guys that can go multiple innings. It would be an easier way to break in guys like Houck having to go 3-4 innings and not 5-6 innings. Hernandez needs innings. I'd be interested to see if combining two guys like Houck and Hernandez gives you 5-7 innings every 5 days. We have a good amount of guys like that. Can go multiple innings, yet don't seem to be actual starters that can go 5-7 innings. I am surprised you are still not a fan of bullpen games being part of a regular plan and have to disagree on the data. On a micro level you might have to look close but on a macro level pitch counts have been trending down for a long time and wouldn't that be the true test? Hardly anyone goes over what used to be the threshold and now is really hard to reach, 200 innings. On a micro level just look at Johnson and Velazquez from 2018, I would take that combined performance from a #5 every year. It would be a different story if you could find enough starters capable of giving you 7 good innings most nights but in todays baseball that is becoming rare as it is about quality pitches not quantity. Can't get away with throwing meatballs up there anymore or the ball is getting crushed, who knows maybe the answer is to soften the ball or raise the mound. It is kind of mind boggling to look at how much pitching has changed when you look at pitch counts for a season. But it does seem the future is more arms fewer innings, no getting around that and the data supports it.
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