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Post by James Dunne on Jan 2, 2020 11:02:10 GMT -5
The Velazquez games were sorta bullpen games, but 2018 Johnson was more like a quick-hook type of starter - he went five or more innings in six of his 13 starts, and at least four in another five. The two games when he went shorter were because he wasn't effective, not because it was the plan. Those weren't bullpen games in the same sense that we're talking of the starter working once through the lineup.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 2, 2020 13:02:25 GMT -5
The Velazquez games were sorta bullpen games, but 2018 Johnson was more like a quick-hook type of starter - he went five or more innings in six of his 13 starts, and at least four in another five. The two games when he went shorter were because he wasn't effective, not because it was the plan. Those weren't bullpen games in the same sense that we're talking of the starter working once through the lineup. I think you have the microscope out and are over analyzing that. Is their really much difference between what you call a guy, quick-hook type and a bullpen starter. If a guy is dealing then he makes it thru the lineup twice thats your 5 or more innings. It is basically like having your 5,6,7 guys in the rotation be guys you hope to get 3 or 4 innings out of. Much different than having your short men coming in to start for 1 inning. If you don't have 5 legit starters, and how many do, then you ask your 5,6,7, to pitch knowing it is a shorter outing. Isn't this what is happening anyways? All the metrics are out there showing the #s based on how many times thru the lineup a pitcher goes and the fall off his performance is directly in line. Maybe not every single starter but the majority. With the 26 man rosters I think this is only going to become more prevelant right?
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 2, 2020 13:32:34 GMT -5
The Red Sox tried to use Hernandez in multiple innings last year and he was absolutely terrible after he came out for the 2nd inning just about every time. I don't think they're going to try to stretch him further than an inning like has been mentioned earlier in the thread.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 2, 2020 13:46:01 GMT -5
The Velazquez games were sorta bullpen games, but 2018 Johnson was more like a quick-hook type of starter - he went five or more innings in six of his 13 starts, and at least four in another five. The two games when he went shorter were because he wasn't effective, not because it was the plan. Those weren't bullpen games in the same sense that we're talking of the starter working once through the lineup. I think you have the microscope out and are over analyzing that. Is their really much difference between what you call a guy, quick-hook type and a bullpen starter. If a guy is dealing then he makes it thru the lineup twice thats your 5 or more innings. It is basically like having your 5,6,7 guys in the rotation be guys you hope to get 3 or 4 innings out of. Much different than having your short men coming in to start for 1 inning. If you don't have 5 legit starters, and how many do, then you ask your 5,6,7, to pitch knowing it is a shorter outing. Isn't this what is happening anyways? All the metrics are out there showing the #s based on how many times thru the lineup a pitcher goes and the fall off his performance is directly in line. Maybe not every single starter but the majority. With the 26 man rosters I think this is only going to become more prevelant right? In this context, I think so. In 2018, the Red Sox basically used Brian Johnson as the #6 starter the traditional sense - sliding into the rotation when there was an injury and pitching like a starter, as long as he could. There was never a "you're getting through the order once and coming out" feeling, which could be good or bad depending on the situation - Johnson was in a situation to pace himself and work through a lineup like a starter. Compare that with someone like Houck, whose stuff is more likely to play up in shorter stints and therefore might excel more with a once-through-the-lineup directive. Cora basically managed to the score when he used 2018 Johnson, in a good way - took him out in the fifth a couple times even when he was pitching relatively well, because he ran into trouble when the game was close. But it definitely was a case of him eating some innings and saving the bullpen, rather than using the whole bullpen to get through a game. In 2019 he wasn't effective, and it caused something of a chain reaction - they never really had a deep enough bullpen to combat the fact the swingmen didn't pitch well. The problem with having bullpen games - basically having two guys piggyback to get once through the order apiece - is that the population of pitchers who can do that might not be so long, and then what if a starter gets knocked out in those other four games? Do you have the depth to carry a third long reliever? Use other pitchers in longer roles? Just empty the bullpen, possibly leading to less effectiveness in future games? Then what do you with Eovaldi, who is terrible past the second time through the order? You'd ideally have a deep bullpen on his days as well. You have to manage the staff according to the arms that you have, not come up with a strategy first. If you're carrying 13 pitchers consistently now, maybe it's easier to do. I dunno.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 2, 2020 14:07:50 GMT -5
One thing for sure is that it is interesting to see how things in baseball are changing. The traditional roles are evolving. Not everyone likes the changes I am sure but change doesn't necessarily have to be bad. The new rule on facing 3 batters this coming season will be a big one. From how you build the staff down to game management their will be growing pains.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 2, 2020 15:04:45 GMT -5
I'd be interested to see what data supports bullpen games. Mainly because you need to look at the whole team, it adds tons of pressure to the coach and GM. It's going to be crazy hard to measure, because a bullpen game could can have effects games latter or even take like a half season to start to show effects of guys wearing down. You are going to be calling guys up and sending guys down all the time.
I don't mind planning on that as your #6 starter, I'm not a fan of planning on that for your #5 starter. Like what happens when injuries happen? Two bullpen games a week likely kill the team. Like there's a difference using an opener then using a guy like Beeks who is basically a starter, then doing a full on bullpen game as a plan to start the season.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Jan 2, 2020 15:24:51 GMT -5
The Red Sox tried to use Hernandez in multiple innings last year and he was absolutely terrible after he came out for the 2nd inning just about every time. I don't think they're going to try to stretch him further than an inning like has been mentioned earlier in the thread. www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=hernada02&t=p&year=2019He pitched over an inning six times and only gave up runs in one of those six games. So I don't know what you are talking about besides one game. I have to ask when did young players stop getting better as they gain more experience and become what they are when they get their first taste of the majors? First Chavis, now Hernandez. The guy needs innings to work on his issues, he has the build to pitch a ton of innings. If he's not ready to be a starter, which he isn't. I'm going to find ways to get him innings. Way to early to say he's a one inning reliever. The stats show he did just fine pitching more than an inning.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 3, 2020 8:32:36 GMT -5
I'd be interested to see what data supports bullpen games. Mainly because you need to look at the whole team, it adds tons of pressure to the coach and GM. It's going to be crazy hard to measure, because a bullpen game could can have effects games latter or even take like a half season to start to show effects of guys wearing down. You are going to be calling guys up and sending guys down all the time. I don't mind planning on that as your #6 starter, I'm not a fan of planning on that for your #5 starter. Like what happens when injuries happen? Two bullpen games a week likely kill the team. Like there's a difference using an opener then using a guy like Beeks who is basically a starter, then doing a full on bullpen game as a plan to start the season. I think the data that supports the bullpen usage isn't going to be purely in numbers that say it is effective but more in what is not effective, like starters who can't get thru the lineup more than twice with out their numbers blowing up. Like I said before it is about quality pitches vs quantity, that's why a guy like Porcello has value even when his numbers climb. It is managers trying to get quality pitching when the starters are can't get outs. Like Eck said the hitters are bigger, stronger and just better so you have to match that up with better pitching. Better pitching "usually" comes with fewer pitches right? Isn't that what they say about putting guys in the pen, their stuff will play up. It all makes sense from that point of view unless you are lucky and have a great rotation that stays healthy. These are the reasons we are seeing the bullpens usage expanding and evolving. Throw on top of that the move towards guys who can dial up 98 and it is just one more reason.
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Addam603
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Post by Addam603 on Jan 11, 2020 17:26:12 GMT -5
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Jan 11, 2020 19:47:10 GMT -5
Throwing a bunch of em at the wall and seeing what sticks
That’s honestly a smart way to build a bullpen imo. There’s too much volatility involved to invest a ton of money into relief arms
Hildenberger has a good change up
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 19, 2020 4:35:24 GMT -5
Assuming Price is traded, there are 9 bullpen / opener spots. Workman, Barnes, Hernandez, Taylor, Brice (out of options, and plenty good enough), and Hembree are sure things, and Walden would have to pitch himself off the roster. That leaves two spots for, deep breath:
Hector Velazquez Ryan Brasier Colten Brewer Ryan Weber Chris Mazza
Josh Osich Kyle Hart Jeffrey Springs Matt Hall
Not to mention the non-roster invitees. (And I'm not!)
We liked the idea of picking up a Colten Brewer type last year; Bloom is showing how it's done by picking up five more. Based on track record, Osich would seem to be the favorite among the LHR; any of the RHR other than Mazza would be unsurprising (and even that wouldn't be a shock).
Of course, one or two guys of the top 11 will likely be hurt, so 3 or even 4 of these guys could start the season ... but I can't remember the last time the team had 9 candidates for as few as 2 spots.
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Post by dmaineah on Jan 19, 2020 7:04:09 GMT -5
Might as well throw Reyes, Shawaryn & Aybar into the mix. Weber is also out of options so unless he pitches himself off the team I think it’s only 1 spot. I think they let it play out into the season & keep all the bodies they can. Do you think Price will get traded? I don’t.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jan 21, 2020 10:51:33 GMT -5
Might as well throw Reyes, Shawaryn & Aybar into the mix. Weber is also out of options so unless he pitches himself off the team I think it’s only 1 spot. I think they let it play out into the season & keep all the bodies they can. Do you think Price will get traded? I don’t. Reyes didn't pitch well in Portland last year and Aybar was in Salem. So no on those guys, at least until much later in the year.
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Post by ramireja on Jan 21, 2020 12:11:22 GMT -5
Moved some general bullpen discussion to this thread as we stockpile more arms.
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Post by soxcentral on Jan 21, 2020 12:50:17 GMT -5
And on that note, one intriguing arm that we brought in is Hildenberger. Quirky delivery, 2 more option years...I can see him doing something positive at some point for us.
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Jan 21, 2020 15:16:03 GMT -5
I don’t hate the idea of stockpiling live arms with options and just rolling with hot hands throughout the season. Just have to be confident in your ability to know when to cut bait
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Post by dmaineah on Jan 21, 2020 16:38:53 GMT -5
The Red Sox traded right-hander Travis Lakins to the Cubs in exchange for a player to be named later or cash, both teams announced Tuesday afternoon. The Sox added that left-hander Bobby Poyner went unclaimed on outright waivers and has been assigned to Triple-A www.mlbtraderumors.com/
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Post by manfred on Jan 30, 2020 11:25:08 GMT -5
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Jan 31, 2020 20:39:36 GMT -5
Assuming Price is traded, there are 9 bullpen / opener spots. Workman, Barnes, Hernandez, Taylor, Brice (out of options, and plenty good enough), and Hembree are sure things, and Walden would have to pitch himself off the roster. That leaves two spots for, deep breath:
Hector Velazquez Ryan Brasier Colten Brewer Ryan Weber Chris Mazza
Josh Osich Kyle Hart Jeffrey Springs Matt Hall
Not to mention the non-roster invitees. (And I'm not!)
We liked the idea of picking up a Colten Brewer type last year; Bloom is showing how it's done by picking up five more. Based on track record, Osich would seem to be the favorite among the LHR; any of the RHR other than Mazza would be unsurprising (and even that wouldn't be a shock).
Of course, one or two guys of the top 11 will likely be hurt, so 3 or even 4 of these guys could start the season ... but I can't remember the last time the team had 9 candidates for as few as 2 spots. Now it looks like Price is staying, which I've always liked as an idea.
They have one spot open, and Weber is out of options. So that's 8 guys competing to fill the spots opened up by injury, or to steal Walden's job if everyone is healthy.
And then there's Johnson and Houck, and the potential Brazier / Walden style breakouts in Hildenberger, Alvarez, Tapia, and Leyer ... and Mata and maybe Feldman before year's end.
This is tremendous depth,and it won't show up in any projections or prognostications.
One upshot of this is that they may well be able to trade Hembree while both improving the pen, and gaining another $0.9M in space for a deadline deal. That has to be part of the plan.
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Post by mwgray13 on Feb 3, 2020 12:21:25 GMT -5
I really see this as a two man race between Brice, and Weber. I'm rooting for Weber based on his multiple inning upside.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Feb 4, 2020 2:19:07 GMT -5
I am remembering how, this time last year, we were all frustrated that so many good closer-experienced relievers were signing with other teams. I remember my surprise that so many of those elite RP’s had awful seasons, which taught me (again) how unpredictable RP’s can be.
So I really like what Bloom is doing, keeping the most promising RP’s of 2019 and adding previously successful depth to 2020. Several posters have opined that the Sox are adding openers and long men to support injuries, as well as support for SP’s like Martin and Eovaldi who are most successful during the first 2X through the order. It just makes sense with this rotation. We should know soon if even more talent will be added by trade.
I think the 13 pitchers who break camp will be most effective if their diverse strengths are used creatively/proactively; especially with the depth Bloom is creating. Football is mercifully over. The C’s and B’s are playoff bound. Pitchers and catchers report next week. All is right with the world.
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Post by manfred on Feb 9, 2020 13:25:39 GMT -5
Interesting to see MLB.com has Workman as #17 closer in baseball. That might seem mediocre, but the names above him are largely awesome. I am really curious to see if he can repeat.
At the same time, names at the bottom are real cautionary tale. Last place: Wade Davis. When closers collapse, it is painful.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Feb 10, 2020 3:02:53 GMT -5
Interesting to see MLB.com has Workman as #17 closer in baseball. That might seem mediocre, but the names above him are largely awesome. I am really curious to see if he can repeat. At the same time, names at the bottom are real cautionary tale. Last place: Wade Davis. When closers collapse, it is painful. The Shredder has Workman at #7 among MLB closers. Don’t know about you but seeing that made me feel much better in general and also about the fill level in my rosy colored glass.
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