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Red Sox linked to using video replay room illegally
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Post by Oregon Norm on Jan 8, 2020 11:53:04 GMT -5
I'll say this again. Technology has radically changed the terms of the debate. Scope and scale matter. "Everyone does it" from second base is a hell of a lot different than "everyone does it" using a set of broadly distributed high-def video cameras feeding back to a central server where sophisticated algorithms parse the digital stream into finely resolved pitch sequencing based on identified sign combinations. That's where all of this is headed. Networked computing power has changed every business it's touched. Why should baseball be any different?
I'm not a fan of this commissioner but this has to be dealt with. That said, there is every possibility for serious recriminations if what posters have said is true, that everybody does it. It's easy to imagine a flood of finger pointing as voiceofreason suggests. This will not be easy.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 8, 2020 11:54:28 GMT -5
What you bring up about players coming forward to rat is the reason it is hard to believe the vast majority of conspiracy theories. How do you keep everyone happy and silent when they know the truth about something. Can you blame pitchers for getting pissed off if they know everyone is trying to do it, including the team they are playing for. It is their lively hood that is being threatened. MLB is in an interesting position of having to lay down the law on 2 teams that got caught doing something that they know most teams are trying to do. I think they will come down hard as it is all they can do to curb the behavior in the future. Is it just me or has doing absolutely anything, regardless of right or wrong, to win become acceptable in this country. I'll stay out of the potential political stuff that your question could be construed to raise despite my strong opinions on that and just say that I was a big UCONN Huskies fan - in Connecticut there was the Whalers and nothing else to call your own and then when the Whalers faded out and soon moved the only real Connecticut team of significance were the UCONN Huskies college basketball team (for the sake of this question I'll exclude the UCONN Ladies who have done just about everything you could ask for in their excellence and their ability to stay virtually controversy free - Geno Auriemma has been wonderful), but the UCONN men's team - they reminded me a bit of the Sox - never a winner, had their share of heartbreaks, and then one day they finally slayed their dragon (Duke) in the 1999 NCAA finals after finally breaking through to finally make the Final 4. Eventually they sustained success but around the time Jim Calhoun was leaving there started to be the stench of recruiting violations and things that were being done that were not above board and it continued into the Kevin Ollie era. So there were suddenly 4 championships (just like the Sox), but it didn't feel so kosher anymore. Then I root for the Patriots who were the league joke for many years. Then suddenly the Patriots are the greatest dynasty in football history, but every five minutes there are controversies with that team, although I do think Deflategate was the stupidest thing I've ever heard of - that should never have been a thing. Now between Manny and Ortiz accused of PEDs (in Manny's case it's nore than an accusation - the question is WHEN was he doing it?) and now the controversy with 2018, which should be a sacred year in Red Sox history, only behind 2004 and perhaps even with 2013 and 1967 and 1912), and that now has a stain on it, even if the Sox were doing what pretty much everybody else was doing. All those championships have some scent of stain on them which is a shame because it is about winning it all. I mean I don't remember hearing controversies about how my teams won - when they weren't winning, and I certainly have enjoyed the past two decades of the golden era than the previous two decades than my fandom stretches back to, but yeah, in the end it's all about the winning and virtually everybody is cheating in some form to get that edge to win. So it has become acceptable I suppose even if some of that detracts a little bit afterwards because it's not like you know it's actually happening when it's happening. You always find out afterwards at some point and then groan to yourself and shake your head, but hey, it's not like I'm going to tear down my shrine room of Championships, so what does that say about me and my morals (and before Yankee fans act superior how do they win Game 7 without Juicin' Giambi's 2 homers off Pedro)? Absolutely love the reply but yes I was making a bit of an inference as to the political landscape, which is rightly not brought up here. Thank God LOL
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 8, 2020 12:00:01 GMT -5
An organization can be dumb and still be allowed to punish people they catch breaking the rules. "The thing we got caught exploiting was an easily exploitable thing" isn't much of a defense. By way of analogy, there's a huge home goods store in the mall near me that never has any employees in the half of the store near the entrance to the mall. It would be very, very, very easy to steal things from that store. If I stole something from there and got caught, "I only did it because they were foolish to set up a store that's easy to shoplift from" would not help me escape penalty. It's just annoying that they'd only prosecute the Red Sox fans while letting the Yankees fans walk free. That's up there with your umpires conspiracy. Their calls are anti-Red Sox, and pro-Yankees. The Red Sox were caught with that apple watch thing and then warned not to screw up again. They did so now they're facing penalties for ignoring Manfred. Houston is getting punished too, so it's not just the Red Sox. Sooner or later it will extend to the Yankees. I'm willing to guess they're not 100% above board either.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 8, 2020 12:11:50 GMT -5
It's just annoying that they'd only prosecute the Red Sox fans while letting the Yankees fans walk free. That's up there with your umpires conspiracy. Their calls are anti-Red Sox, and pro-Yankees. The Red Sox were caught with that apple watch thing and then warned not to screw up again. They did so now they're facing penalties for ignoring Manfred. Houston is getting punished too, so it's not just the Red Sox. Sooner or later it will extend to the Yankees. I'm willing to guess they're not 100% above board either. It's not going to extend to the Yankees with this commissioner. This goes back to the Red Sox pushing for Werner to become commissioner over Manfred. Who of course was a Yankees fan for his entire life.
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Post by James Dunne on Jan 8, 2020 12:46:44 GMT -5
Let's keep the paranoid conspiracy theories out of here. This has nothing to do with the Yankees, and your insistence on always bringing them up when mentioning Red Sox getting disciplined says nothing about Manfred and everything about you. Domingo German just got the harshest penalty yet under the domestic violence policy. There is not some Manfred-led conspiracy to help the Yankees and screw the Red Sox.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 8, 2020 13:13:55 GMT -5
Let's keep the paranoid conspiracy theories out of here. This has nothing to do with the Yankees, and your insistence on always bringing them up when mentioning Red Sox getting disciplined says nothing about Manfred and everything about you. Domingo German just got the harshest penalty yet under the domestic violence policy. There is not some Manfred-led conspiracy to help the Yankees and screw the Red Sox. And the MLBPA didn't even appeal the German suspension even though there was no police report probably because there were several baseball players and their wives as witnesses of the event that took place at a party thrown by CC Sabathia. I know, there's no place for anything that goes against the official narrative decreed from above by the gods of truth in any aspect of life anymore. Just call those wackos crazy to discredit them forever while everyone else piles on. Yes of course, Jeffery Epstein killed himself. Some unknown officials said so and that's good enough. No one ever lies except conspiracy theorists. I was taught to question everything and don't care if I'm ridiculed for it. And now I'm done with it, just like you asked.
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shagworthy
Veteran
My neckbeard game is on point.
Posts: 1,482
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Post by shagworthy on Jan 8, 2020 13:29:33 GMT -5
Like several posters have said previously. Regardless of the suspicion that 99.9% of MLB clubs employ some similar tactic to steal signs, the fact remains that the Red Sox have now been named twice in 4 years in regards to the matter. They were warned after the last incident, and now they will be made an example of.
Do I think it will change anything? No.
Do I think it provides that great of an advantage statistically? Also no.
I'm probably on an island here, but the game has evolved as technology around the game has evolved, and the splitting hairs notion of what is an acceptable form of cheating versus what is an offense to god, and your mother is as grey as any of the other nonsensical unwritten rule(s) of baseball. Cheating/Gamesmanship and whatever else will continue to be prevalent as long as there is a financial incentive to do so, Baseball players and coaches are still humans, and humans do some pretty s*itty stuff in the pursuit of wealth and fame.
At the end of the day, Baseball, and any other sport, is entertainment. This will be a hotly discussed topic until something new comes along and takes it's place, and the larger public moves on to the next "crisis" like sheep being lead to the butcher.
This isn't to say I condone the behavior, I don't, and the Red Sox should be punished, fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, shame on you. I've just resigned myself to the fact that the punishment will be significant, even if the precedent it sets is still ignored in the name of the almighty dollar.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 8, 2020 14:07:25 GMT -5
Let's keep the paranoid conspiracy theories out of here. This has nothing to do with the Yankees, and your insistence on always bringing them up when mentioning Red Sox getting disciplined says nothing about Manfred and everything about you. Domingo German just got the harshest penalty yet under the domestic violence policy. There is not some Manfred-led conspiracy to help the Yankees and screw the Red Sox. Correct and Manfred also went out of his way to do just about everything to absolve Big Papi of his positive testing for 2003.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 8, 2020 15:33:16 GMT -5
T
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 8, 2020 15:47:16 GMT -5
They're clearly going after the Houston team the hardest, so stop the "everyone is out to get Boston" persecution complex. Also the Patriots get punished a lot because they get caught doing little cheaty things a lot. You can't complain that they "haven't fixed it" when they're trying to fix it. To be fair, jimed has the right approach here, we should all drop the pretense and embrace the homer in us. When the other team is caught cheating, they're cheaters and should be disbanded. When our team is caught cheating, we were set up and there are a lot of attenuating circumstances. There should be no conflicting feelings when it comes to sports.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 8, 2020 16:31:51 GMT -5
They're clearly going after the Houston team the hardest, so stop the "everyone is out to get Boston" persecution complex. Also the Patriots get punished a lot because they get caught doing little cheaty things a lot. You can't complain that they "haven't fixed it" when they're trying to fix it. To be fair, jimed has the right approach here, we should all drop the pretense and embrace the homer in us. When the other team is caught cheating, they're cheaters and should be disbanded. When our team is caught cheating, we were set up and there are a lot of attenuating circumstances. There should be no conflicting feelings when it comes to sports. Yup, at the end of the day we all root for laundry, even if it gets soiled.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 8, 2020 18:41:18 GMT -5
They're clearly going after the Houston team the hardest, so stop the "everyone is out to get Boston" persecution complex. Also the Patriots get punished a lot because they get caught doing little cheaty things a lot. You can't complain that they "haven't fixed it" when they're trying to fix it. To be fair, jimed has the right approach here, we should all drop the pretense and embrace the homer in us. When the other team is caught cheating, they're cheaters and should be disbanded. When our team is caught cheating, we were set up and there are a lot of attenuating circumstances. There should be no conflicting feelings when it comes to sports. I don't know Don. The Red Sox already look bad enough by pulling this crap. Now the fans of the Red Sox come out pointing the finger at Manfred because he's somehow biased as the commissioner of baseball. It makes the fans look just as bad who point the finger at anyone but the Sox here. It also makes them foolish too imo.
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Post by jimed14 on Jan 8, 2020 18:46:30 GMT -5
To be fair, jimed has the right approach here, we should all drop the pretense and embrace the homer in us. When the other team is caught cheating, they're cheaters and should be disbanded. When our team is caught cheating, we were set up and there are a lot of attenuating circumstances. There should be no conflicting feelings when it comes to sports. I don't know Don. The Red Sox already look bad enough by pulling this crap. Now the fans of the Red Sox come out pointing the finger at Manfred because he's somehow biased as the commissioner of baseball. It makes the fans look just as bad who point the finger at anyone but the Sox here. It also makes them foolish too imo. And you make all Boston fans look foolish for crying about every team not going undefeated every year. If you don't want to interact with me, then stop poking.
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Post by dirtywater43 on Jan 8, 2020 18:49:41 GMT -5
I don't know Don. The Red Sox already look bad enough by pulling this crap. Now the fans of the Red Sox come out pointing the finger at Manfred because he's somehow biased as the commissioner of baseball. It makes the fans look just as bad who point the finger at anyone but the Sox here. It also makes them foolish too imo. And you make all Boston fans look foolish for crying about every team not going undefeated every year. If you don't want to interact with me, then stop poking. Every fan wants to win every year, if the had the chance. Just pointing out the obvious. The Sox broke the same rule TWICE, shame on them
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Post by Don Caballero on Jan 8, 2020 23:50:57 GMT -5
I don't know Don. The Red Sox already look bad enough by pulling this crap. Now the fans of the Red Sox come out pointing the finger at Manfred because he's somehow biased as the commissioner of baseball. It makes the fans look just as bad who point the finger at anyone but the Sox here. It also makes them foolish too imo. Fans are expected to go DARVO and honestly I prefer that to talks about Cora getting fired. We're not going to get anyone's sympathy here anyway.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Jan 9, 2020 3:09:24 GMT -5
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Post by kman22 on Jan 9, 2020 11:28:49 GMT -5
How do you prove this one?
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 9, 2020 13:30:35 GMT -5
Couple things here. While I don't think Cora gets fired, it's concerning out of his 2 seasons with the club, his historical WS year is tied into a cheating scandal while year 2 was a major thud and disappointment starting with entering the season completely unprepared. I will say though that if this is coming out now in 2020 then why was he cheating in 2018 and not 2019? Unless he was spoken to and stopped or his "cheating" wasn't as big of a deal as people are making it sound. I'm curious how you explain the drop off between years if you credit the cheating to his success.
What I'm most fascinated in is how this could impact Betts trade value. Altuve hasn't had the same pop since and Betts was an MVP 2 seasons ago. Should we reasonably expect last year to be his new norm (still all-star caliber) or can we expect him to be capable of flashing Mike Trout type of numbers?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Jan 9, 2020 13:45:58 GMT -5
Couple things here. While I don't think Cora gets fired, it's concerning out of his 2 seasons with the club, his historical WS year is tied into a cheating scandal while year 2 was a major thud and disappointment starting with entering the season completely unprepared. I will say though that if this is coming out now in 2020 then why was he cheating in 2018 and not 2019? Unless he was spoken to and stopped or his "cheating" wasn't as big of a deal as people are making it sound. I'm curious how you explain the drop off between years if you credit the cheating to his success. What I'm most fascinated in is how this could impact Betts trade value. Altuve hasn't had the same pop since and Betts was an MVP 2 seasons ago. Should we reasonably expect last year to be his new norm (still all-star caliber) or can we expect him to be capable of flashing Mike Trout type of numbers? The Red Sox pitching tanked last year. That has very little to do with cheating and probably more to do with Cora's usage of his starters out of the pen in the post-season and the lack of proper spring training. That's utilization, not cheating. I mean, Mookie's numbers fell off to mere human high standards, but Devers blossomed, Bogaerts improved, and Vazquez was drastically better.....so did they cheat in 2019 and not cheat in 2018? The Red Sox drop in 2019 was a lot more their pitching and lack of depth of pitching than it was their offense although their offense had an annoying knack for failing in clutch situations of close games, but to chalk that up to no longer cheating - that doesn't make sense either. Honestly, the cheating helps obviously, but I think the impact can be a bit overblown. I mean, if you have Sale dropping off - I know maybe the rest of the league was doing a better job of cheating in 2019 - and you have injuries to Sale, Price had injuries, Porcello having a terrible year, Eovaldi's year being a washout and a mediocre bullpen, why wouldn't you expect the Sox to do a lot worse than a team that actually exceeded it's pythag record in 2018 by five games as well? I think Cora's (the manager's) impact is overstated.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Jan 9, 2020 13:52:20 GMT -5
I am firmly in the camp of my team I want my team to win and the rest of it isn't that consequential.
What is fascinating to me is who had the ax to grind. How can any of this be "secretive". The whistleblowers can't expect anonymity in the future. That is why you had to kind of respect Friers.
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Post by fenwaythehardway on Jan 9, 2020 14:46:59 GMT -5
Couple things here. While I don't think Cora gets fired, it's concerning out of his 2 seasons with the club, his historical WS year is tied into a cheating scandal while year 2 was a major thud and disappointment starting with entering the season completely unprepared. I will say though that if this is coming out now in 2020 then why was he cheating in 2018 and not 2019? Unless he was spoken to and stopped or his "cheating" wasn't as big of a deal as people are making it sound. I'm curious how you explain the drop off between years if you credit the cheating to his success. What I'm most fascinated in is how this could impact Betts trade value. Altuve hasn't had the same pop since and Betts was an MVP 2 seasons ago. Should we reasonably expect last year to be his new norm (still all-star caliber) or can we expect him to be capable of flashing Mike Trout type of numbers? No amount of cheating can stop your rotation from being garbage.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 9, 2020 16:40:18 GMT -5
Couple things here. While I don't think Cora gets fired, it's concerning out of his 2 seasons with the club, his historical WS year is tied into a cheating scandal while year 2 was a major thud and disappointment starting with entering the season completely unprepared. I will say though that if this is coming out now in 2020 then why was he cheating in 2018 and not 2019? Unless he was spoken to and stopped or his "cheating" wasn't as big of a deal as people are making it sound. I'm curious how you explain the drop off between years if you credit the cheating to his success. What I'm most fascinated in is how this could impact Betts trade value. Altuve hasn't had the same pop since and Betts was an MVP 2 seasons ago. Should we reasonably expect last year to be his new norm (still all-star caliber) or can we expect him to be capable of flashing Mike Trout type of numbers? The Red Sox pitching tanked last year. That has very little to do with cheating and probably more to do with Cora's usage of his starters out of the pen in the post-season and the lack of proper spring training. That's utilization, not cheating. I mean, Mookie's numbers fell off to mere human high standards, but Devers blossomed, Bogaerts improved, and Vazquez was drastically better.....so did they cheat in 2019 and not cheat in 2018? The Red Sox drop in 2019 was a lot more their pitching and lack of depth of pitching than it was their offense although their offense had an annoying knack for failing in clutch situations of close games, but to chalk that up to no longer cheating - that doesn't make sense either. Honestly, the cheating helps obviously, but I think the impact can be a bit overblown. I mean, if you have Sale dropping off - I know maybe the rest of the league was doing a better job of cheating in 2019 - and you have injuries to Sale, Price had injuries, Porcello having a terrible year, Eovaldi's year being a washout and a mediocre bullpen, why wouldn't you expect the Sox to do a lot worse than a team that actually exceeded it's pythag record in 2018 by five games as well? I think Cora's (the manager's) impact is overstated. It's also possible Betts was having "down year" during a cheating year. It'll be interesting to see how well the hitters fare in 2020 that's for sure. I also feel like this will be an unfortunate year+ ordeal now where if Xander isn't quite Xander or Devers regresses then we start to see post after post, radio segment after radio segment about how much the "cheating" impacted their performance. I'm actually more annoyed about this than the actual act. I just hope that Devers, Xander, and Betts continue to progress and continue being great hitters. I wouldn't be surprised if Vazquez, like JBJ, was a flash in the pan. I mean, juiced ball aside, Vazquez really had a year no one ever expected out of him.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 9, 2020 16:52:04 GMT -5
Let's keep the paranoid conspiracy theories out of here. This has nothing to do with the Yankees, and your insistence on always bringing them up when mentioning Red Sox getting disciplined says nothing about Manfred and everything about you. Domingo German just got the harshest penalty yet under the domestic violence policy. There is not some Manfred-led conspiracy to help the Yankees and screw the Red Sox. And the MLBPA didn't even appeal the German suspension even though there was no police report probably because there were several baseball players and their wives as witnesses of the event that took place at a party thrown by CC Sabathia. I know, there's no place for anything that goes against the official narrative decreed from above by the gods of truth in any aspect of life anymore. Just call those wackos crazy to discredit them forever while everyone else piles on. Yes of course, Jeffery Epstein killed himself. Some unknown officials said so and that's good enough. No one ever lies except conspiracy theorists. I was taught to question everything and don't care if I'm ridiculed for it. And now I'm done with it, just like you asked. This thread is wild. Just reading back and somehow Jeffrey Epstein got thrown into the conversation.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Jan 9, 2020 16:59:32 GMT -5
The Cardinals were fined 2 million and lost their first 2 picks in the 2017 draft for hacking the Astros computers mining for information. Will it be this bad? Like I said before, if they know everyone is trying to do it does it make the punishment more or less. It is a quandary for MLB but I think the Sox are going to get smacked around pretty good for this. "Hacking" is such an overstated term in what actually happened. They never changed any of their passwords after he left the organization. I can all but guarantee the IT people got fired for that. I don't think it'll be THAT bad on an organizational level because while what the Red Sox are being accused of could impact on the field W-L, what the Cardinals did was get scouting information on players and saw what another organization thought of certain players. Maybe the Astros were heavily interested in a later round pick that the Cardinals knew was going to be off the board, so they swooped in and took a flyer on them leaving them to take a less desirable player. There's a much longer impact on stealing an organization's information than immediate on the field W-L. I think the coaching staff (mainly the manager) will be given a strict suspension (up to a year) and the team will lose a 3rd or 4th just because this is another incident after the whole Apple watch incident.
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Post by voiceofreason on Jan 10, 2020 12:06:06 GMT -5
The Cardinals were fined 2 million and lost their first 2 picks in the 2017 draft for hacking the Astros computers mining for information. Will it be this bad? Like I said before, if they know everyone is trying to do it does it make the punishment more or less. It is a quandary for MLB but I think the Sox are going to get smacked around pretty good for this. "Hacking" is such an overstated term in what actually happened. They never changed any of their passwords after he left the organization. I can all but guarantee the IT people got fired for that. I don't think it'll be THAT bad on an organizational level because while what the Red Sox are being accused of could impact on the field W-L, what the Cardinals did was get scouting information on players and saw what another organization thought of certain players. Maybe the Astros were heavily interested in a later round pick that the Cardinals knew was going to be off the board, so they swooped in and took a flyer on them leaving them to take a less desirable player. There's a much longer impact on stealing an organization's information than immediate on the field W-L. I think the coaching staff (mainly the manager) will be given a strict suspension (up to a year) and the team will lose a 3rd or 4th just because this is another incident after the whole Apple watch incident. In regards to hacking I couldn't think of a better word and didn't know the details as you stated about the passwords.
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