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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 11, 2020 16:28:05 GMT -5
Would you trade Duran or Houck for a player with a performance history as short as Workman's? Very possible neither of them would make the White Sox Top 10. And, for what it's worth, Workman is making $3.5 million this year. If I was the White Sox, I would trade a top 10 prospect. The Twins are loaded offensively and you need every upgrade possible to possibly catch them in the division. But if Workman continues to pitch well April-June, if you're the White Sox, wouldn't you trade MORE at that time than you would now? Relief pitchers get insane returns at the deadline. Let's hope he continues to pitch well this year and the return in wins and/or trade value will be much greater.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 11, 2020 16:29:07 GMT -5
Would you trade Duran or Houck for a player with a performance history as short as Workman's? Very possible neither of them would make the White Sox Top 10. And, for what it's worth, Workman is making $3.5 million this year. If I was the White Sox, I would trade a top 10 prospect. The Twins are loaded offensively and you need every upgrade possible to possibly catch them in the division. Hypothetically: Suppose the Red Sox had kept Betts and Price and were about seven wins or so behind the Yankees according to projection systems. Also suppose (again hypothetically) that there were no major payroll constraints. Would you trade Jarren Duran for Liam Henriks? Just so I'm clear, not Kyle Henricks of the Cubs, but Liam Hendriks of the A's. Hendriks has a longer history of success than Workman and Duran would, again, be very borderline Top 10 in the White Sox system. I don't think I'd be thrilled with that, and I think Hendriks is quite good. EDIT: And I'll say that I'm not trying to force an opinion here. If you were like "heck yeah I would" I'd respect that just fine. Just trying to lay it out from the other perspective.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 11, 2020 16:38:26 GMT -5
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Post by baseballlifer34 on Feb 11, 2020 16:41:22 GMT -5
If I was the White Sox, I would trade a top 10 prospect. The Twins are loaded offensively and you need every upgrade possible to possibly catch them in the division. But if Workman continues to pitch well April-June, if you're the White Sox, wouldn't you trade MORE at that time than you would now? Relief pitchers get insane returns at the deadline. Let's hope he continues to pitch well this year and the return in wins and/or trade value will be much greater. Counterpoint, Workman could regress based off of history and selling high is right now.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 11, 2020 16:45:08 GMT -5
OK the Workman stuff is becoming Trade Proposal Subforum stuff and I'm not sure what the point of this thread is otherwise. Betts has been traded, so "post-Mookie planning" is now "general thoughts on things the Red Sox should do."
Not going to close this down yet but we're getting there. Again, specific ideas should get their own threads
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 11, 2020 16:50:47 GMT -5
I'd rather use him as a JBJ replacement and eat a little bit of money on JBJ to move him. Verdugo if healthy should be the guy in RF. Unless of course they are going to use Pillar as a kind of super sub outfielder who spells all 3 once a week.
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Post by huskies15 on Feb 11, 2020 17:04:41 GMT -5
The haste to trade JBJ is weird. He's not blocking anyone, they don't need to shed anymore money this year, and he clearly has minimal trade value. You may not rate him but he isn't hurting any development or progress.
Unless a better than expected offer comes along, he will be here through June/July at least, and that is fine.
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Post by congusgambler33 on Feb 11, 2020 17:58:41 GMT -5
Yes, some of the trade proposals are kind of all over the place, but I understand that they are just discussing certain proposals to help the team in the long run. I do agree with Chris that some of the proposals have veered away from the subject of helping the team this year. I would love the Sox signing Kevin Pillar as a back up outfielder. he is an excellent defender and in prior years showed a decent amount of pop. Seems he has struggled lately, but his defense is top notch. McHugh would make a decent no 5 also that seems to have picked up his game in the last year. Not as sold on him as Pillar, but those are the best out there for me.
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Post by soxaddict on Feb 11, 2020 18:19:51 GMT -5
Yes, some of the trade proposals are kind of all over the place, but I understand that they are just discussing certain proposals to help the team in the long run. I do agree with Chris that some of the proposals have veered away from the subject of helping the team this year. I would love the Sox signing Kevin Pillar as a back up outfielder. he is an excellent defender and in prior years showed a decent amount of pop. Seems he has struggled lately, but his defense is top notch. McHugh would make a decent no 5 also that seems to have picked up his game in the last year. Not as sold on him as Pillar, but those are the best out there for me. I think Pillar would be a great signing. That guy is a gamer. Not to mention we need a right handed bat in the outfield. He may even be a decent trade chip at the deadline if we’re way behind.
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Post by Smittyw on Feb 11, 2020 18:25:40 GMT -5
Approve.
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Post by libertine on Feb 11, 2020 21:54:12 GMT -5
I am focused on SP. With Price and Porcello gone we have Sale, E-Rod and Eovaldi left fill the 5 starters roles. We are short 2 SP and 2 of them we already have had major/significant arm troubles last season and were out for extended periods. Add to that I get the distinct impression that the club isn't interested in bringing in someone that will significantly add $$$ to the payroll this season. Golden opportunities for our top pitching prospects?
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Post by libertine on Feb 11, 2020 21:56:06 GMT -5
Oh, I forgot we got Martin Perez didn't we. OK we need one starter...
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Post by soxaddict on Feb 11, 2020 22:22:08 GMT -5
Oh, I forgot we got Martin Perez didn't we. OK we need one starter... Not much left out there. McHugh. Maybe Walker. Sanchez, Salazar, Helickson or Buchholz on a minor league deal.
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,966
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Post by jimoh on Feb 12, 2020 7:31:52 GMT -5
When I see Pillar and Perez and Verdugo and Downs, what am I asking myself is: have we hired a GM (so to speak) who has superior judgement in projecting performance? Not with certainty of course, but is he acquiring players who have a better chance of performing well than conventional wisdom suggests? We won't know this for a while.
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Feb 12, 2020 8:09:15 GMT -5
The core of this team over the next few years should be Xander, Devers, Benny, Verdugo, Downs, Casas, Dalbec/Chavis, Sale and probably JD if he doesn't opt-out. Wong might end up becoming the Sox version of Marwin Gonzalez. The problem here is that besides Sale there is no other pitcher in the organization that you can definitively say will be here in 2 years. E-Rod is going to want to be paid. Would you feel comfortable given his injury history handing E-Rod a 20 million a year contract? The top two arms in the pen, Barnes, and Workman will most likely be gone by this time as well. The disparity between the lineup and pitching staff is very alarming. They need to hit in the draft over the next couple of seasons, specifically with pitching. Or embrace having an amazing lineup full of cost-controlled players/players on good deals and having to spend like pirates on any top-flight pitcher on the market. The Cubs model if you will. It makes too much sense to move on from Chavis or Dalbec if it results in pitching coming back.
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Post by dirtdog on Feb 12, 2020 19:17:39 GMT -5
If it makes any of you feel any better, Mookie when asked at his introductory press conference, if he would talk about an extension with the Dodgers, was 100% non committal. Would not even discuss.
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Post by incandenza on Feb 12, 2020 19:28:46 GMT -5
If it makes any of you feel any better, Mookie when asked at his introductory press conference, if he would talk about an extension with the Dodgers, was 100% non committal. Would not even discuss. I don't know if this means he was refusing to answer the question or was committing 100% to not signing an extension.
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Post by dirtdog on Feb 12, 2020 19:33:46 GMT -5
If it makes any of you feel any better, Mookie when asked at his introductory press conference, if he would talk about an extension with the Dodgers, was 100% non committal. Would not even discuss. I don't know if this means he was refusing to answer the question or was committing 100% to not signing an extension. Said he was there to play baseball when asked about the extension. Would not answer beyond that. I took it to mean he will test the market based on the tone of the answer and what he said when he was here.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 12, 2020 19:45:19 GMT -5
I've been trying to think through an extension for Devers as a way for the Red Sox to spend the savings from Price.
I think something in the range of this would get it done: 1, 11, 16.5, 22 + 2 team options @ 27
Main issues is that would put us AAV at 12.625 and with the Pillar signing that brings them within 4 mil. That 4 mil covers potential bonuses, Eduardo potentially winning his arb case and a few extra bucks for peripheral minimum MLB signings and not much else. So Bloom would have next to no room to operate on the chance the Red Sox play well and become buyers.
The AAV number also assumes no buyouts for the option years.
Figuring out a way to make this happen would be the best way to take the sting out from the Mookie trade.
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Post by caseytins on Feb 12, 2020 20:01:20 GMT -5
The core of this team over the next few years should be Xander, Devers, Benny, Verdugo, Downs, Casas, Dalbec/Chavis, Sale and probably JD if he doesn't opt-out. Wong might end up becoming the Sox version of Marwin Gonzalez. The problem here is that besides Sale there is no other pitcher in the organization that you can definitively say will be here in 2 years. E-Rod is going to want to be paid. Would you feel comfortable given his injury history handing E-Rod a 20 million a year contract? The top two arms in the pen, Barnes, and Workman will most likely be gone by this time as well. The disparity between the lineup and pitching staff is very alarming. They need to hit in the draft over the next couple of seasons, specifically with pitching. Or embrace having an amazing lineup full of cost-controlled players/players on good deals and having to spend like pirates on any top-flight pitcher on the market. The Cubs model if you will. It makes too much sense to move on from Chavis or Dalbec if it results in pitching coming back. A few things - they will be getting under the cap. That was the goal. There should be starting pitching options over the next couple of years. Also, Song's ruling is still very much up in the air (sigh), Groome has a huge year coming up, Mata has very good promise, along with Ward. There are promising arms in the system not too far away..
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 12, 2020 20:19:08 GMT -5
I've been trying to think through an extension for Devers as a way for the Red Sox to spend the savings from Price. I think something in the range of this would get it done: 1, 11, 16.5, 22 + 2 team options @ 27 Main issues is that would put us AAV at 12.625 and with the Pillar signing that brings them within 4 mil. That 4 mil covers potential bonuses, Eduardo potentially winning his arb case and a few extra bucks for peripheral minimum MLB signings and not much else. So Bloom would have next to no room to operate on the chance the Red Sox play well and become buyers. The AAV number also assumes no buyouts for the option years. Figuring out a way to make this happen would be the best way to take the sting out from the Mookie trade. Is Devers officially signed for this year? If he is, any extension wouldn't count 2020 in the AAV calculations. Yeah, I was going to say the same. Just start it next year. You'd probably need to give him buyouts on the option years.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Feb 12, 2020 22:09:27 GMT -5
Is Devers officially signed for this year? If he is, any extension wouldn't count 2020 in the AAV calculations. Yeah, I was going to say the same. Just start it next year. You'd probably need to give him buyouts on the option years. It used to be that if you signed before the start of the season your extension's AAV automatically included the current year (e.g. signing now would include 2020 season) but that was changed so that teams with luxury tax concerns wouldn't keep waiting for the year to start as it causes concern for both the team and player. So now teams have the 'option' of applying the extension to begin in the current year (if done prior to the season beginning) or for the proceeding year, in instances where they want to keep the current year AAV low. Last year, for example, Nolan Arenado, Aaron Hicks and Blake Snell signed extensions between Feb 25th and March 13th which all began in 2019 (both in real salary and in AAV). Unless something changed for 2020 and I missed it, I'm pretty certain the option of when the extension begins still holds up. This may be a reason the Red Sox chose to get themselves 19.6 million under the tax after the Betts/Price deal as an extension signed this year would greatly reduce the AAV and save ownership money in 2021 and 2022 when they are paying the luxury tax.
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Post by Addam603 on Feb 12, 2020 22:27:25 GMT -5
If it makes any of you feel any better, Mookie when asked at his introductory press conference, if he would talk about an extension with the Dodgers, was 100% non committal. Would not even discuss. Honestly, he didn't look happy at that press conference. It will be interesting to see what numbers he puts up in that park, especially in the first half of the season. My cruel heart wants to see him go into a major slump, depreciate at least a bit of market value, and come back to Boston, (inappropriate content deleted. - Mods). Anyone that wishes poorly on Mookie after all he gave the Red Sox has no place calling themselves a Red Sox fan. Especially because he isn’t the one that made the trade. Be upset with the front office all you want but get out of here with that crap. I hope Mookie kills it in LA.
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mobaz
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Post by mobaz on Feb 13, 2020 8:49:21 GMT -5
Honestly, he didn't look happy at that press conference. It will be interesting to see what numbers he puts up in that park, especially in the first half of the season. My cruel heart wants to see him go into a major slump, depreciate at least a bit of market value, and come back to Boston, (inappropriate content deleted. - Mods).Anyone that wishes poorly on Mookie after all he gave the Red Sox has no place calling themselves a Red Sox fan. Especially because he isn’t the one that made the trade. Be upset with the front office all you want but get out of here with that crap. I hope Mookie kills it in LA. I'm hoping they put up Mookiewood signs and start selling bowling pins with his name on it (can't think of a better analog to the Manny Ramirez dreadlock hats). Go get it, Mookie. I do hope he comes back, however unlikely.
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gerry
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Post by gerry on Feb 13, 2020 17:26:46 GMT -5
Will visit our former Sox heroes (Betts, Roberts, Price) in Phoenix; and wish them all well. Also looking forward to visiting them and the $100M Smith inspired improvements in Dodger stadium. Go Mookie. Play it again Price. Go Verdugo. Go Bloom.
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