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Post by rambo77 on Feb 12, 2020 12:24:45 GMT -5
Think flipping JBJ to the Pirates for 2 low A pitching Then fill in for the Angles in that dead with the Dodges in a salary dump Joc Pederson and Ross Stripling plus newly inquiring Brusdar Graterol for Matt Barnes and C J Chatham interesting...how much money does the sox have left...I've read 9 plus but spotrac said 16.5 mil
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nomar
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Post by nomar on Feb 12, 2020 12:30:49 GMT -5
The weird thing with Dombrowski is that he did a good job adding depth in-season, when it's harder to do (Nunez, Pearce, Eovaldi for example) and then in the off-season when depth was plentiful, he... he just signed the guys he already had to expensive deals. Not sure why you think stashing Leon is a *positive* for Dombrowski. I mean, I guess the stashing part itself was fine, but then deciding two weeks later that a guy who couldn't hit and couldn't get a major league deal should be the backup catcher gets pretty directly to the frustrations with him. Leon's probably something like the 150th best catcher alive, which is a credit to him. But he fact that he so often landed on the guy who was already there was the problem. When they won with holes, instead of filling them he just sort of assumed that those holes must not be so deep that they were an impediment. Not the end of the world, but DD also had to give up value to get those guys. Beeks could have been solid to have in a long relief/swingman role. Espinal might end up a utility guy and Anderson might end up a back end starter. It’s nice when you don’t have to give up potential future depth to get current depth. But DD made the right call with those moves at the time and should be commended for it.
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Post by Edward Hand on Feb 12, 2020 12:39:47 GMT -5
This is a nice move; surprised he lasted this long on the market. Kind of the ideal 4th outfielder/bench guy especially considering the amount of LH bats. Wonder if an innings eater is next.
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Post by James Dunne on Feb 12, 2020 13:14:24 GMT -5
The weird thing with Dombrowski is that he did a good job adding depth in-season, when it's harder to do (Nunez, Pearce, Eovaldi for example) and then in the off-season when depth was plentiful, he... he just signed the guys he already had to expensive deals. Not sure why you think stashing Leon is a *positive* for Dombrowski. I mean, I guess the stashing part itself was fine, but then deciding two weeks later that a guy who couldn't hit and couldn't get a major league deal should be the backup catcher gets pretty directly to the frustrations with him. Leon's probably something like the 150th best catcher alive, which is a credit to him. But he fact that he so often landed on the guy who was already there was the problem. When they won with holes, instead of filling them he just sort of assumed that those holes must not be so deep that they were an impediment. Not the end of the world, but DD also had to give up value to get those guys. Beeks could have been solid to have in a long relief/swingman role. Espinal might end up a utility guy and Anderson might end up a back end starter. It’s nice when you don’t have to give up potential future depth to get current depth. But DD made the right call with those moves at the time and should be commended for it. Sure. But if you don't have current depth, trading future depth is the smart way to do it. I like everyone they traded, I think Espinal in particular is an under-the-radar guy. That was part of the problem though, right? He wasn't finding those guys on the open market in the offseason, so he had to trade depth to get them. All of the trades were individually decent, but he had to make so many of those over the year that the depth of the system was really depleted. But he did a good job identifying the right pieces in-season, which is a credit to him.
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Feb 12, 2020 13:24:29 GMT -5
it will be great to rave about depth over the next X amount of years, when we have to compete against the MFY for division titles. doesnt mean much without All Stars leading the squad
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 12, 2020 14:51:09 GMT -5
Not the end of the world, but DD also had to give up value to get those guys. Beeks could have been solid to have in a long relief/swingman role. Espinal might end up a utility guy and Anderson might end up a back end starter. It’s nice when you don’t have to give up potential future depth to get current depth. But DD made the right call with those moves at the time and should be commended for it. Sure. But if you don't have current depth, trading future depth is the smart way to do it. I like everyone they traded, I think Espinal in particular is an under-the-radar guy. That was part of the problem though, right? He wasn't finding those guys on the open market in the offseason, so he had to trade depth to get them. All of the trades were individually decent, but he had to make so many of those over the year that the depth of the system was really depleted. But he did a good job identifying the right pieces in-season, which is a credit to him. Dombrowski's strength was "We need X, go find the best player to fill Need X." The in-season acquisitions listed (Nunez, Pearce, Eovaldi) were all that. Dombrowski was very bad at finding creative solutions to anything, which is probably why he was never good at building a bullpen, an area where that is necessary. That's the kind of skill that lends to building the fringes of the roster well - the other 15 spots on the 40-man and those who are lurking just off of it, for example. He rarely made transactions based on opportunity arising (in other words, like the numerous waiver moves Bloom has already made). Even Colten Brewer was a single player they tried multiple times to acquire, likely at the behest of Bannister I bet. He never made moves that were an opportunity to marginally upgrade spot 28 on the 40-man roster and the like. I mean that figuratively because I don't have time to do the research, but also wouldn't be surprised if it were literally true. I think the number of players who have cleared waivers off the 40-man this offseason is telling on this score. If you read Homegrown, this becomes even clearer. We all kinds of figured this out watching him because it was pretty obvious, and the book confirms it.
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Post by sibbysisti on Feb 12, 2020 15:10:52 GMT -5
This does give Bloome an opportunity to consider trading Bradley for pitching. Pillar can help bridge the gap until Duran is ready. Neither Pillar or Puello should be a starter. This is for a 4th outfielder only. Why not? He’s only 31 and has been a starter his whole career (156 games last year). He’s only signed for one year. Since this looks like a rebuilding season, getting one or two pitching prospects for Jackie can help for next year or in the future.
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radiohix
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'At the end of the day, we bang. We bang. We're going to swing.' Alex Verdugo
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Post by radiohix on Feb 12, 2020 15:17:33 GMT -5
Why's the tone in the different threads is "we should be rebuilding this year, let's try to trade everyone"? I know it'll be hard to clinch the AL East, but a Wild Card spot is very much in play by all the projections. After we get there, anything is possible.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on Feb 12, 2020 15:45:19 GMT -5
Neither Pillar or Puello should be a starter. This is for a 4th outfielder only. Why not? He’s only 31 and has been a starter his whole career (156 games last year). He’s only signed for one year. Since this looks like a rebuilding season, getting one or two pitching prospects for Jackie can help for next year or in the future. Because:
1) It's not a rebuilding season; it's a season where you're in the mix for the WC and can absolutely steal a spot if the guys with upsides have good years. Guys like, you know, JBJ. Remember that most post-season clubs get there because they have guys who exceed their projections.
2) Pillar is now well below average and has no apparent upside.
Trading JBJ does make sense if a bunch of the following things are true, to a sufficient total degree.
0. Pillar is as good as Statcast defensively says he's been, rather than below average as DRS and UZR say. (It's "0" because it's likely.)
1. They've spotted a batting tweak for Pillar and/or Puello that others have missed.
2. Someone already has made an unusually attractive offer for JBJ.
3. They've concluded that there's no way to shorten JBJ's slumps and hence realize his upside.
1 would be the most credible main rationale, and if that's it, they would wait until ST to see if it looks like it's working.
2 would help justify a deal, and isn't that unlikely. (If a team is convinced they know how to shorten his slumps, they'd be all over him. And this isn't abstract; I believe I figured out why Carlos Pena's slumps were so long with the data available to me, and it's possible that the Rays spotted the same reason when they shortened them dramatically and turned him into a star.)
3 would help but seems dubious.
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Post by sibbysisti on Feb 12, 2020 16:26:12 GMT -5
Perhaps “rebuilding” does not adequately describe the upcoming season. So let’s say “retooling”. Sound better? With the uncertain health of two of the starting pitchers and the question marks about the bottom two, pitching is the key to this team’s success. Trading JBJ could interest a team with pitching to spare.
Acquiring Pillar who has had over 150 games for most of his career can fill the of void at least for this season. Perhaps after ST, once teams assess their needs, Bloom can trigger a move to address the pitching concerns.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 12, 2020 16:31:26 GMT -5
Perhaps “rebuilding” does not adequately describe the upcoming season. So let’s say “retooling”. Sound better? With the uncertain health of two of the starting pitchers and the question marks about the bottom two, pitching is the key to this team’s success. Trading JBJ could interest a team with pitching to spare. Acquiring Pillar who has had over 150 games for most of his career can fill the of void at least for this season. Perhaps after ST, once teams assess their needs, Bloom can trigger a move to address the pitching concerns. Well, the Red Sox don't have a JBJ to spare. Pillar is not a JBJ replacement.
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Post by Ryanod1 on Feb 12, 2020 16:43:43 GMT -5
Perhaps “rebuilding” does not adequately describe the upcoming season. So let’s say “retooling”. Sound better? With the uncertain health of two of the starting pitchers and the question marks about the bottom two, pitching is the key to this team’s success. Trading JBJ could interest a team with pitching to spare. Acquiring Pillar who has had over 150 games for most of his career can fill the of void at least for this season. Perhaps after ST, once teams assess their needs, Bloom can trigger a move to address the pitching concerns. There can be a million names for it. Suppose the word can always be "remodeling" as well. The Sox seem to be looking at this as a top to bottom thing which I love! Its not a lets clear house type thing per se, but they are fixing what needs to be fixed. It wasn't sustainable to keep upgrading their top guys (signing same guys to contracts or too much money for individuals) while neglecting to steadily update the fringes. Puello and Pillar are nice additions to a team that finally has 4th OF depth I love.
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Post by jackiebradleyjrjr on Feb 12, 2020 16:57:09 GMT -5
Why's the tone in the different threads is "we should be rebuilding this year, let's try to trade everyone"? I know it'll be hard to clinch the AL East, but a Wild Card spot is very much in play by all the projections. After we get there, anything is possible. Precisely. And if we’re wrong, then we’ll be major sellers at the trade deadline with a variety of interesting players to offer. So let’s compete and go from there.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 12, 2020 17:07:32 GMT -5
Why's the tone in the different threads is "we should be rebuilding this year, let's try to trade everyone"? I know it'll be hard to clinch the AL East, but a Wild Card spot is very much in play by all the projections. After we get there, anything is possible. And if you were, say a St. Louis Cardinals fan, with no vested interest in the Red Sox and have to objectively evaluate the Red Sox, would you have them that much better than a .500 team with that pitching staff? Losing Mookie should be a 4 or 5 game dropoff. I don't see this team as a 90 win team. I think if Sale isn't acelike and/or Eovaldi doesn't stay healthy, this team could get off to a bad start and start selling off JBJ and JDM by July. Every year you have different expectations of what the Sox' chances are. They have not improved their team at all and other teams have, and have caught up to and surpassed the Sox. Realistically they're a fringy wild card team. Objectively, I'd select TB and Oakland ahead of the Red Sox, and I'd think any of Cleveland, Anaheim, or even possibly Toronto or Chicago could wind up with a better record. Anything is possible. It's a much lower bar to clear for this team to pleasantly surprise, but it also wouldn't even be shocking if they were a sub-.500 when all is said and done. They'll have better seasons and expectations than 2020.
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Post by sibbysisti on Feb 12, 2020 19:06:00 GMT -5
Perhaps “rebuilding” does not adequately describe the upcoming season. So let’s say “retooling”. Sound better? With the uncertain health of two of the starting pitchers and the question marks about the bottom two, pitching is the key to this team’s success. Trading JBJ could interest a team with pitching to spare. Acquiring Pillar who has had over 150 games for most of his career can fill the of void at least for this season. Perhaps after ST, once teams assess their needs, Bloom can trigger a move to address the pitching concerns. Well, the Red Sox don't have a JBJ to spare. Pillar is not a JBJ replacement. Your opinion, to which I disagree. It’s clear that Jackie is the premier defensive center fielder in the league. However, he’s a strikeout machine who, after all these years has been unable to lay off the slider on the low outside of the plate; or the high hard one also outside. What Pillar lacks in comparison to Jackie defensively (and he’s no slouch in that department), he makes up for it with contact. Just compare his most recent numbers to JBJ.
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Post by dmaineah on Feb 12, 2020 21:50:43 GMT -5
Pillar? Really?
I continue to be unimpressed
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Post by caseytins on Feb 12, 2020 22:06:56 GMT -5
Pillar? Really? I continue to be unimpressed Unimpressed by Bloom? I know you preferred Puig, but really, can we just let this play out a bit? I'm curious what your thoughts are on the new 3 batter rule. As a mathematician, I love it, because I can use it to my advantage.
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Post by sibbysisti on Feb 12, 2020 22:11:10 GMT -5
Pillar? Really? I continue to be unimpressed Really. Have you checked out the numbers? Let Baseball Reference be your friend. Look at his SO per ABs last season compared to our strikeout machine. To say nothing of the fact he outhit JBJ by 30 points.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 12, 2020 23:11:50 GMT -5
Pillar? Really? I continue to be unimpressed He got Jeter Downs for you. What else do you want?
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 12, 2020 23:14:21 GMT -5
Pillar? Really? I continue to be unimpressed Really. Have you checked out the numbers? Let Baseball Reference be your friend. Look at his SO per ABs last season compared to our strikeout machine. To say nothing of the fact he outhit JBJ by 30 points. Wasn't his OPS about the same or less than JBJ? I mean Pillar doesn't strike out a lot, but he also doesn't walk at all, and it's not like he has a high batting average, so his OBP is usually at or under .300 which isn't good. He's a mediocre player, but a better bet against lefties than JBJ, so he's here for a year.
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Post by caseytins on Feb 12, 2020 23:36:45 GMT -5
Really. Have you checked out the numbers? Let Baseball Reference be your friend. Look at his SO per ABs last season compared to our strikeout machine. To say nothing of the fact he outhit JBJ by 30 points. Wasn't his OPS about the same or less than JBJ? I mean Pillar doesn't strike out a lot, but he also doesn't walk at all, and it's not like he has a high batting average, so his OBP is usually at or under .300 which isn't good. He's a mediocre player, but a better bet against lefties than JBJ, so he's here for a year. He might be here for more than a year. That is the beauty of the signing. Wait for Bradley to go on one of his "hot" months, and then trade him for pitching mid-season.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 13, 2020 0:17:43 GMT -5
Wasn't his OPS about the same or less than JBJ? I mean Pillar doesn't strike out a lot, but he also doesn't walk at all, and it's not like he has a high batting average, so his OBP is usually at or under .300 which isn't good. He's a mediocre player, but a better bet against lefties than JBJ, so he's here for a year. He might be here for more than a year. That is the beauty of the signing. Wait for Bradley to go on one of his "hot" months, and then trade him for pitching mid-season. I'd hope he wouldn't unless he's strictly a backup. If they're trading JBJ, then it's kind of a lost season anyways. At that point, he's JAG in CF. Losing games with Pillar in CF is not exciting. Even if JBJ goes on one of his one month long hot streaks, it's not like he's going to fool anybody at this point. He is what he is. I'd think they'd be able to trade him, but I wouldn't think they'd get anything of significance. Maybe an interesting middle relief arm, which they can always use. Now, if Duran was to force his way into the majors, as very unlikely as that would be, even if they're losing, if he's getting his feet wet in the majors, then that's interesting to watch, a guy on his way up as opposed to a mediocrity like Pillar.
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Post by caseytins on Feb 13, 2020 0:43:34 GMT -5
He might be here for more than a year. That is the beauty of the signing. Wait for Bradley to go on one of his "hot" months, and then trade him for pitching mid-season. I'd hope he wouldn't unless he's strictly a backup. If they're trading JBJ, then it's kind of a lost season anyways. At that point, he's JAG in CF. Losing games with Pillar in CF is not exciting. Even if JBJ goes on one of his one month long hot streaks, it's not like he's going to fool anybody at this point. He is what he is. I'd think they'd be able to trade him, but I wouldn't think they'd get anything of significance. Maybe an interesting middle relief arm, which they can always use. Now, if Duran was to force his way into the majors, as very unlikely as that would be, even if they're losing, if he's getting his feet wet in the majors, then that's interesting to watch, a guy on his way up as opposed to a mediocrity like Pillar. True enough, however, he has minimal trade value currently. Who knows what could happen if he has a hot June and there is a desperate contender at the deadline. I think I am being optimistic, but there is a decent chance that we can get good value for him. Oh, and by the way, I am waving the white flag on this season. I just hope we helped out the Dodgers enough to hold off the Yankees.
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 13, 2020 0:51:30 GMT -5
I'd hope he wouldn't unless he's strictly a backup. If they're trading JBJ, then it's kind of a lost season anyways. At that point, he's JAG in CF. Losing games with Pillar in CF is not exciting. Even if JBJ goes on one of his one month long hot streaks, it's not like he's going to fool anybody at this point. He is what he is. I'd think they'd be able to trade him, but I wouldn't think they'd get anything of significance. Maybe an interesting middle relief arm, which they can always use. Now, if Duran was to force his way into the majors, as very unlikely as that would be, even if they're losing, if he's getting his feet wet in the majors, then that's interesting to watch, a guy on his way up as opposed to a mediocrity like Pillar. True enough, however, he has minimal trade value currently. Who knows what could happen if he has a hot June and there is a desperate contender at the deadline. I think I am being optimistic, but there is a decent chance that we can get good value for him. Oh, and by the way, I am waving the white flag on this season. I just hope we helped out the Dodgers enough to hold off the Yankees. Perhaps the opposite. David Price pitching in any series (let alone 2 World Series starts) against the Yankees is not normally a pretty picture.
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Post by Ryanod1 on Feb 13, 2020 5:23:53 GMT -5
Wasn't his OPS about the same or less than JBJ? I mean Pillar doesn't strike out a lot, but he also doesn't walk at all, and it's not like he has a high batting average, so his OBP is usually at or under .300 which isn't good. He's a mediocre player, but a better bet against lefties than JBJ, so he's here for a year. He might be here for more than a year. That is the beauty of the signing. Wait for Bradley to go on one of his "hot" months, and then trade him for pitching mid-season. That's what makes this signing even better. Like you said just wait for one of his "hot" months. The Sox signing both Puello and Pillar allows them to strike while the irons hot. I know they don't HAVE to do anything, but assuming they want to. It will certainly help knowing they can trade JBJ the moment they feel like its time, and not have to be overly concerned about who replaces him. Pillar would be more than adequate to take the place of JBJ for whatever remaining time necessary (date of trade to end of season). Another added value with Puello and Pillar is upside. Particularly with Pillar you know what your going to get typically, but he does have the talent on up years to be a fairly valuable trade asset. 4th OF depth, and injury replacements hold good value later in the season. I am not holding my breath on anything, but it is something to consider. I am NOT saying that JBJ's value will skyrocket, or that Pillar will become some stud. What I AM saying is that JBJ doing well + his other worldly D is certainly big for someone making a push. A player as good as him on D is probably just as good as a decent hitter brought in when it comes to a playoff push (I kind of think a little more valuable Dave Roberts). When Pillar has a good season he is also a good addition. This is all just an opinion of course. I would venture to say that Pillar is an above average bench option on almost any MLB team.
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