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Post by manfred on Feb 10, 2021 23:10:54 GMT -5
You mean because Duran will hit a lot? Fair. Duran and me will hit just a smidge fewer. You do know Cordero let the minor leagues in triples in ‘16 and ‘17? Or are you just posting garbage because you enjoy it? Ok. He is going to be 27 this year and has sucked in 4 cups of coffee. It isn’t like they got a prospect like Khalil Lee or something. When you think prospect profile, is 26-27, multiple brutal call ups what you picture? Benny is 2 months older and has likely already done more than Cordero will ever do. But wait... we got the guy guy the Mets had thrown into the Matz deal. Ok. Cool. Yeah, there are the PTBNL. I’ll be ready to party.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 10, 2021 23:13:46 GMT -5
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 10, 2021 23:18:01 GMT -5
Exactly. People forget there was no MILB season last year. So scouting reports are very outdated
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 10, 2021 23:18:41 GMT -5
You do know Cordero let the minor leagues in triples in ‘16 and ‘17? Or are you just posting garbage because you enjoy it? Ok. He is going to be 27 this year and has sucked in 4 cups of coffee. It isn’t like they got a prospect like Khalil Lee or something. When you think prospect profile, is 26-27, multiple brutal call ups what you picture? Benny is 2 months older and has likely already done more than Cordero will ever do. But wait... we got the guy guy the Mets had thrown into the Matz deal. Ok. Cool. Yeah, there are the PTBNL. I’ll be ready to party. Dude your Constant negativity is tiring
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Post by incandenza on Feb 10, 2021 23:18:53 GMT -5
You do know Cordero let the minor leagues in triples in ‘16 and ‘17? Or are you just posting garbage because you enjoy it? Ok. He is going to be 27 this year and has sucked in 4 cups of coffee. It isn’t like they got a prospect like Khalil Lee or something. When you think prospect profile, is 26-27, multiple brutal call ups what you picture? Benny is 2 months older and has likely already done more than Cordero will ever do. But wait... we got the guy guy the Mets had thrown into the Matz deal. Ok. Cool. Yeah, there are the PTBNL. I’ll be ready to party. Every manfred comment:
[Red Sox sign a reliever off waivers.]
"Pfft. I guess that's supposed to make up for losing Mookie Betts or something? What a dumpster fire."
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Post by manfred on Feb 10, 2021 23:19:19 GMT -5
By the way, for the this-was-painful-but folks.... This is meant to be entertainment. At some point when you trade away a lot of popular players, you deserve to be criticized unless you are killlling it. Maybe. Look at the video again of guys no longer here doing their celebration. The prospect of going into a season scrapping to get ghe second wildcard wouldn’t feel so sucky if I had guys who I’d long loved to root for. Watching shifting platoons try to get to 87 wins? Guys who are here on a one, maybe two year drive by? Hardly creates an emotional bond.
Beny was our biggest draft pick in forever. People are dumping on him because he had part of a bad season and then in the Covid asterisk season was way off.... who knows why? Personally, I see giving away a 26-year-old former top prospect who has actually been good as not endearing.
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Post by foreverred9 on Feb 10, 2021 23:19:21 GMT -5
The Sox must've been adamant that they wanted an arm to come back in the trade, otherwise I don't see why they wouldn't have done Franchy, Khalil + 2 PTBNL.
One other consideration is that Khalil would have had to have gone on the 40-man, but it doesn't seem like Winckowski does.
Definitely another trade where they were going after depth.
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Post by beasleyrockah on Feb 10, 2021 23:19:23 GMT -5
I'm discovering a lot of posters know what a PTBNL means, but don't understand the variance of quality that comes from players given that title. Guys, being a PTBNL doesn't automatically mean you have no value. If these three players are organizational filler you can be mad about it once they are identified. Crushing this trade before we know the full details is extremely unreasonable and only serves to undermine the opinions of the posters who feel the need to be reactionary before they have the information to make an informed evaluation. So many sports fans act personally offended any time all the details aren't immediately know to a trade, contract, etc.
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Post by Jimmy on Feb 10, 2021 23:20:01 GMT -5
I think as the details come in for this trade the floor (not to mention the ceiling) for this trade is a lot higher than what the people who overreacted early on thought. Let’s start with the Mets side. The Mets picked up KC’s #8 prospect. Since it now appears that it’s the Red Sox sending money to KC (and not the Mets) you’d think that Winckovski + the PTBNL is more valuable than KC’s #8 prospect in Chaim’s opinion. Otherwise there’s no reason to include the Mets in this trade, we would have just taken Lee. Now let’s talk about the misconception surrounding ‘PTBNL’ pieces. There was no minor league season last year. Tough to get a read on other team farms. It would actually make a lot of since for there to be a pool of previously agreed upon names the Sox can pick from based on what they see from certain guys in the minors this year. This point was made by Red Sox Stats on Twitter, I agree with it, and I think it is validated by the paragraph above. Let’s move on to the Royals. Cordero. Obviously not proven in the majors, but there’s a lot to like in terms of upside. Another user posted this story earlier in the thread and I thought it was a great read: www.pitcherlist.com/franch-ise-player-why-franchy-cordero-is-the-ultimate-sleeper/I think the way I would look at it is similar upside with a lot lower floor. Plus one extra year of control than we had on Benny. With where the team is at now that’s not a terrible adjustment considering there is additional return. I don’t know if the $2.8M added in is what got us Cordero in addition to the prospect coming back from the Mets or if it will help extract additional value out of the PTBNL’s. The Royals PTBNLs are tougher to speculate on compared to the Mets. At worst it’s two lottery tickets but I have a gut feeling at least one of them will be in the 10-15 range (or better) in our system. Cherry on top, we freed up $2M on the CBT to go shop for a guy who can be useful this season and/or as a trade cheap at deadline (Moreland / JBJ). So obviously there is a lot that we still need to find out in terms of return, but I think I’ve laid out a good case to there being an at least decent return here. As an aside, a lot of you guys are incredibly impatient. You don’t go from a team devoid of young talent with a bunch of shit contracts to AL version of Dodgers in 12 months. Chaim is building this team with zero regard for the impatient naysayers and complete regard for the future and how many NET CHAMPIONSHIPS the Red Sox can win in the next 10 or so years. And I love every bit of it. If you don’t think championships are all that matters then you have a loser mentality. Be patient. All these moves that a lot of you hate right now are going to pay off long term.
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Post by kevfc89 on Feb 10, 2021 23:21:53 GMT -5
You do know Cordero let the minor leagues in triples in ‘16 and ‘17? Or are you just posting garbage because you enjoy it? Ok. He is going to be 27 this year and has sucked in 4 cups of coffee. It isn’t like they got a prospect like Khalil Lee or something. When you think prospect profile, is 26-27, multiple brutal call ups what you picture? Benny is 2 months older and has likely already done more than Cordero will ever do. But wait... we got the guy guy the Mets had thrown into the Matz deal. Ok. Cool. Yeah, there are the PTBNL. I’ll be ready to party. His multiple so-called "brutal" call ups have still resulted in a career 97 wRC+ so his downside isn't even a black hole offensively. Benintendi has also been a league average hitter since the second half of 2018. I'm guessing health has been an issue for Cordero though because he hasn't played much?
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 10, 2021 23:22:15 GMT -5
By the way, for the this-was-painful-but folks.... This is meant to be entertainment. At some point when you trade away a lot of popular players, you deserve to be criticized unless you are killlling it. Maybe. Look at the video again of guys no longer here doing their celebration. The prospect of going into a season scrapping to get ghe second wildcard wouldn’t feel so sucky if I had guys who I’d long loved to root for. Watching shifting platoons try to get to 87 wins? Guys who are here on a one, maybe two year drive by? Hardly creates an emotional bond. Beny was our biggest draft pick in forever. People are dumping on him because he had part of a bad season and then in the Covid asterisk season was way off.... who knows why? Personally, I see giving away a 26-year-old former top prospect who has actually been good as not endearing. I trust our scouts over random message-borders. He has not had a good season in almost two years.
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Post by julyanmorley on Feb 10, 2021 23:22:41 GMT -5
So the Red Sox have a list of players from the Mets and they get to wait until May or whenever and pick whichever one has the best start to their season? I would never agree to a deal like that if I were the Mets unless everyone on the list was minor league roster filler.
The Mets presumably had to commit to giving away something legit to get Lee here. I have the imagine the Royals aren't giving much else.
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Post by manfred on Feb 10, 2021 23:23:03 GMT -5
Ok. He is going to be 27 this year and has sucked in 4 cups of coffee. It isn’t like they got a prospect like Khalil Lee or something. When you think prospect profile, is 26-27, multiple brutal call ups what you picture? Benny is 2 months older and has likely already done more than Cordero will ever do. But wait... we got the guy guy the Mets had thrown into the Matz deal. Ok. Cool. Yeah, there are the PTBNL. I’ll be ready to party. Every manfred comment:
[Red Sox sign a reliever off waivers.]
"Pfft. I guess that's supposed to make up for losing Mookie Betts or something? What a dumpster fire."
Would be awesome were it true. Again: look at the Ottavino thread. Look at the Hiro thread. Very stoked. Look at the Duran thread. Very stoked. I think there are too many people who think when in doubt the GM is right.
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Post by mikeyg413 on Feb 10, 2021 23:24:38 GMT -5
Jesus everyone is ripping apart this trade. We all know if he was struggling in 2021 and we didn’t trade him there would be “WhY DiDnt BloOm TrY aNd GeT AnyThing FoR HiM”. It looks like he didn’t want to take that gamble and tried to maximize his return as best as he could. Yes the return isn’t that flashy but we’re also talking Cordero and a pitching prospect PLUS 3 players to be named. Even if one of those comes out like he could be something, then the Sox already won this deal. Even if Beni turns it on in KC, there’s no guarantee he would if he stayed put. I hate to see him go, but I’m glad they were able to get something in return for him to try and put the focus onto long term building. Cordero isn’t a slouch either. Even if he has to platoon with Renfroe that’s a dangerous platoon. Both can hit bombs. And they can run. Maybe Cordero fixes his LHP struggles and turns into an everyday guy. Who knows. But it’s not like they got nothing for him. I trust Chaim into building the best team possible to his ability.
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Post by vermontsox1 on Feb 10, 2021 23:26:49 GMT -5
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Post by incandenza on Feb 10, 2021 23:27:16 GMT -5
I'm discovering a lot of posters know what a PTBNL means, but don't understand the variance of quality that comes from players given that title. Guys, being a PTBNL doesn't automatically mean you have no value. If these three players are organizational filler you can be mad about it once they are identified. Crushing this trade before we know the full details is extremely unreasonable and only serves to undermine the opinions of the posters who feel the need to be reactionary before they have the information to make an informed evaluation. So many sports fans act personally offended any time all the details aren't immediately know to a trade, contract, etc. Yes, on top of which, while I'm not a big defer-to-authority guy, I'm pretty sure Bloom realizes that he could have just had Khalil himself if he wanted, and if he chose to loop the Mets in it's because he thought he could do better than that.
So all we know is that the Red Sox got Winckowski + PTBNL from the Mets, Bloom values that package more than Khalil Lee, and the Mets value it less than Lee. That's literally all we know.
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Post by grandsalami on Feb 10, 2021 23:29:11 GMT -5
So the Red Sox have a list of players from the Mets and they get to wait until May or whenever and pick whichever one has the best start to their season? I would never agree to a deal like that if I were the Mets unless everyone on the list was minor league roster filler.
The Mets presumably had to commit to giving away something legit to get Lee here. I have the imagine the Royals aren't giving much else.
Yes. PTBNL are different this year because we had no freaking MILB season last year. So if all the players were announced now it would literally be a wild card trade given a majority of MILB players have not played a professional game in year.
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Post by buffs4444 on Feb 10, 2021 23:30:12 GMT -5
This is the second offseason in a row that it feels like, as a fan, I’ve been traded to a low-revenue team which plays in a non-baseball market....
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,216
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Post by cdj on Feb 10, 2021 23:32:13 GMT -5
Also people can say Cordero has “sucked” as a hitter but if he does exactly what he’s done his entire career he is pretty much the definition of league average at the plate. OPS is .737, OPS+ is 99.
But there’s upside to him- we’ll see what he can do with regularish playing time and *possible* improvement in contact skills.
And there are 4 other pieces coming too.
Cundall pointed out Cordero’s minor league platoon splits on twitter. Yeah he’s a masher of righties. Pairs well with a masher of lefties like Renfroe
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Post by manfred on Feb 10, 2021 23:33:59 GMT -5
Serious question: they *have* to resign JBJ now, right? They have one full-time outfielder.
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Post by blizzards39 on Feb 10, 2021 23:34:15 GMT -5
This is the second offseason in a row that it feels like, as a fan, I’ve been traded to a low-revenue team which plays in a non-baseball market.... Sox have the 2nd highest payroll in baseball so I wouldn’t go that far. We all know DD sold out but we got a WS. I’m hoping to be competitive this year. Maybe surprise. As for the ptnl, they usually aren’t much. But considering the Mets got the royals 8th prospect I’m optimistic we may get something decent yet
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Post by mikeyg413 on Feb 10, 2021 23:35:58 GMT -5
Also people can say Cordero has “sucked” as a hitter but if he does exactly what he’s done his entire career he is pretty much the definition of league average at the plate. OPS is .737, OPS+ is 99. But there’s upside to him- we’ll see what he can do with regularish playing time and *possible* improvement in contact skills. And there are 4 other pieces coming too. I think people are in love with what Benintendi used to be and think they should’ve gotten more for him instead of what the actual return was. He’s dropped off pretty heavily since second half of ‘18 so getting 5 pieces back in a deal with two of them being potentially MLB contributors isn’t bad at all. And plus those 3 PTBNL could be significant. A lot of variables but Cordero looks promising and that RHP looks like he could be filthy in a pen role
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Post by incandenza on Feb 10, 2021 23:36:49 GMT -5
Serious question: they *have* to resign JBJ now, right? They have one full-time outfielder. They could still go with Pillar or something.
But I keep coming back to the fact that if this does allow them to sign JBJ, which they otherwise couldn't have, then they effectively just traded Benintendi for JBJ, Cordero, and 4 other guys.
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cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,216
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Post by cdj on Feb 10, 2021 23:37:12 GMT -5
Winckowski seems like if his secondaries don’t really get refined enough they can throw him in the pen and he’ll pump high 90’s. Kinda like German in that way (though command seems to be German’s biggest knock)
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Post by mikeyg413 on Feb 10, 2021 23:37:51 GMT -5
Serious question: they *have* to resign JBJ now, right? They have one full-time outfielder. They could still go with Pillar or something.
But I keep coming back to the fact that if this does allow them to sign JBJ, which they otherwise couldn't have, then they effectively just traded Benintendi for JBJ, Cordero, and 4 other guys.
I don’t think they commit to JBJ but it all hinges on how Duran develops also I would think. They wouldn’t want to block him.
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