SoxProspects News
|
|
|
|
Legal
Forum Ground Rules
The views expressed by the members of this Forum do not necessarily reflect the views of SoxProspects, LLC.
© 2003-2024 SoxProspects, LLC
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Home | Search | My Profile | Messages | Members | Help |
Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Chaim Bloom and the Red Sox Rebuild
|
Post by wcsoxfan on May 3, 2021 15:04:13 GMT -5
Since the question of whether Dombrowski "gutted" the farm system, or savvily got rid of a bunch of expendable guys in order to build a World Champion, occasionally comes up, but memories (my own, at least) of which guys he actually traded tend toward the hazy, I thought I'd try to compile a complete list of prospects he traded. The players traded for are underlined: Craig Kimbrel Logan Allen Carlos Asuaje Javier Guerra Manuel Margot Carson Smith, Roenis Elias Jonathan Aro Aaron Hill Wendell Rijo Aaron Wilkerson Brad Ziegler Luis Alejandro Basabe Jose Almonte Drew Pomeranz Anderson Espinoza Fernando Abad Pat Light Tyler Thornburg Mauricio Dubon Josh Pennington Travis Shaw Yeison Coca
Chris Sale Luis Alexander Basabe Victor Diaz Michael Kopech Yoan Moncada
Eduardo Nunez Shaun Anderson Gregory Santos Addison Reed Gerson Bautista Jamie Callahan Stephen Nogosek
Rajai Davis Rafael Rincones Nathan Eovaldi Jalen Beeks Ian Kinsler Ty Buttrey Williams Jerez Did I miss anybody?
I would have included prospects he traded for, too, but there weren't any, other than a few minor prospect-for-prospect swaps, like Swihart for Wilson. Of course that's partially due to the team being good throughout his reign. But it is notable that Bloom has found ways to add prospects to the system even while trying to be competitive in the present - e.g., Springs and Mazza for Hernandez; the Benintendi trade; the Ottavino trade - something Dombrowski never did.
I think the upshot of this is that the Thornburg and Nunez trades were dreadful. The Kinsler trade was bad but kind of hard to judge, given how it played out with Buttrey. He gave up a lot for Sale, but got... Sale, and that was probably worth it. Beeks for Eovaldi looks good so far. TBD on Espinoza for Pomeranz, but it looks better now than it did at the time. Opinions vary on the Kimbrel trade. The rest is pretty inconsequential.
Good list. A couple of reminders on the underlined (based on my memory): - At the time Buttrey for Kinsler looked like a gross overpay, but the main factor was that the Angels ate part of Kinsler's contract so that the Red Sox could remain under the luxury tax. The Red Sox going over the luxury tax anyway is the primary reason I believe Dombrowski was let go (not something I can prove). - Pomeranz had injury issues prior to the trade but the Padres hid these from the Red Sox. A couple of weeks after the trade the Red Sox were given the option of reversing the trade by MLB, but they chose not to as the trade deadline has passed so they were out of starting pitching options. (for this reason I think Dombrowski should be given some slack)
|
|
|
Post by manfred on May 3, 2021 15:07:19 GMT -5
Since the question of whether Dombrowski "gutted" the farm system, or savvily got rid of a bunch of expendable guys in order to build a World Champion, occasionally comes up, but memories (my own, at least) of which guys he actually traded tend toward the hazy, I thought I'd try to compile a complete list of prospects he traded. The players traded for are underlined: Craig Kimbrel Logan Allen Carlos Asuaje Javier Guerra Manuel Margot Carson Smith, Roenis Elias Jonathan Aro Aaron Hill Wendell Rijo Aaron Wilkerson Brad Ziegler Luis Alejandro Basabe Jose Almonte Drew Pomeranz Anderson Espinoza Fernando Abad Pat Light Tyler Thornburg Mauricio Dubon Josh Pennington Travis Shaw Yeison Coca
Chris Sale Luis Alexander Basabe Victor Diaz Michael Kopech Yoan Moncada
Eduardo Nunez Shaun Anderson Gregory Santos Addison Reed Gerson Bautista Jamie Callahan Stephen Nogosek
Rajai Davis Rafael Rincones Nathan Eovaldi Jalen Beeks Ian Kinsler Ty Buttrey Williams Jerez Did I miss anybody?
I would have included prospects he traded for, too, but there weren't any, other than a few minor prospect-for-prospect swaps, like Swihart for Wilson. Of course that's partially due to the team being good throughout his reign. But it is notable that Bloom has found ways to add prospects to the system even while trying to be competitive in the present - e.g., Springs and Mazza for Hernandez; the Benintendi trade; the Ottavino trade - something Dombrowski never did.
I think the upshot of this is that the Thornburg and Nunez trades were dreadful. The Kinsler trade was bad but kind of hard to judge, given how it played out with Buttrey. He gave up a lot for Sale, but got... Sale, and that was probably worth it. Beeks for Eovaldi looks good so far. TBD on Espinoza for Pomeranz, but it looks better now than it did at the time. Opinions vary on the Kimbrel trade. The rest is pretty inconsequential.
Good list. A couple of reminders on the underlined (based on my memory): - At the time Buttrey for Kinsler looked like a gross overpay, but the main factor was that the Angels ate part of Kinsler's contract so that the Red Sox could remain under the luxury tax. The Red Sox going over the luxury tax anyway is the primary reason I believe Dombrowski was let go (not something I can prove). - Pomeranz had injury issues prior to the trade but the Padres hid these from the Red Sox. A couple of weeks after the trade the Red Sox were given the option of reversing the trade by MLB, but they chose not to as the trade deadline has passed so they were out of starting pitching options. (for this reason I think Dombrowski should be given some slack) The crazy thing about Pomeranz... unrelated to any of this topic... is iirc he resisted moving to the pen. But the past three years, after finally going back to full time relieving, he’s basically Andrew Miller. If he’d only done that earlier!
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
|
Post by TearsIn04 on May 3, 2021 16:13:16 GMT -5
Let’s look at a bigger picture. Bloom took over a team that had the talent at the big league club to have its best season ever in 2018. So when you say he is making moves for the future but also to be competitive... he’s actually not winning that latter battle. They are competitive because there was already a great team. But the outfield is *significantly* worse for Bloom’s actions. Now, we can agree those check the future box... but you can’t say it is good for the present. Conversely, the lineup when DD arrived was: Swihart C Napoli 1b Pedey Xander Pablo Hanley LF Mookie Some combo of JBJ, Victorino etc Papi (who had only one more season). Rotation: Wade Miley Porcello Joe kelly ERod Buchholz (Owens for depth) Bullpen: Koji (age 40) Tazawa Alexi Ogando Robbie Ross Tommy Lane Craig Breslow They were coming off a 78 win season that followed a 71 win season. Even without trying to argue better/worse, the situations are night and day. Dombrowski was brought into a dumpster fire. Yes, some of those young guys became studs, but you can kinda get a sense of where some of the urgency might have come from. Napoli and Victorino were already gone. And their previous season was the one with 71 wins. The one before that was a champagne spray. You call it a Dumpster fire, but any executive would like to take over just in time to reap the benefits of the young and ascending X, JBJ, Betts, E-Rod, Devers, C-Vaz, Moncada, Koppech and Margot. He was brought in to turn some of those future assets into present-day impact and he did that with the Kimbrel and Sale trades. He spent big for Price. These were luxuries not too many new execs inherit and he handled it well. He deserved the clothed bath he took in the beer bin after game 5 in LA. He did not handle the aftermath well. The Sale and Eo signings were expensive mistakes. Going over the LT threshold in 2018 - which appears to have been a mistake caused by carelessness - cost them their first-round pick in 2019. Watching the MFYs play the Tigers this weekend with fat, slow Miguel Cabrera lumbering around with his 27 OPS-plus, -.6WAR and $30 million AAV reminded me of how happy I am that D-Dom isn't here any longer. He would have done the same thing here with a few guys beyond Sale and Eo if management had let him. Those Miggy numbers are not a misprint. He's on pace for -3 WAR. And he has two years left after this one. No thanks.
|
|
|
Post by grandsalami on May 3, 2021 17:00:25 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by dyoungteach on May 3, 2021 17:56:51 GMT -5
Since the question of whether Dombrowski "gutted" the farm system, or savvily got rid of a bunch of expendable guys in order to build a World Champion, occasionally comes up, but memories (my own, at least) of which guys he actually traded tend toward the hazy, I thought I'd try to compile a complete list of prospects he traded. The players traded for are underlined: Craig Kimbrel Logan Allen Carlos Asuaje Javier Guerra Manuel Margot Carson Smith, Roenis Elias Jonathan Aro Aaron Hill Wendell Rijo Aaron Wilkerson Brad Ziegler Luis Alejandro Basabe Jose Almonte Drew Pomeranz Anderson Espinoza Fernando Abad Pat Light Tyler Thornburg Mauricio Dubon Josh Pennington Travis Shaw Yeison Coca
Chris Sale Luis Alexander Basabe Victor Diaz Michael Kopech Yoan Moncada
Eduardo Nunez Shaun Anderson Gregory Santos Addison Reed Gerson Bautista Jamie Callahan Stephen Nogosek
Rajai Davis Rafael Rincones Nathan Eovaldi Jalen Beeks Ian Kinsler Ty Buttrey Williams Jerez Did I miss anybody?
I would have included prospects he traded for, too, but there weren't any, other than a few minor prospect-for-prospect swaps, like Swihart for Wilson. Of course that's partially due to the team being good throughout his reign. But it is notable that Bloom has found ways to add prospects to the system even while trying to be competitive in the present - e.g., Springs and Mazza for Hernandez; the Benintendi trade; the Ottavino trade - something Dombrowski never did.
I think the upshot of this is that the Thornburg and Nunez trades were dreadful. The Kinsler trade was bad but kind of hard to judge, given how it played out with Buttrey. He gave up a lot for Sale, but got... Sale, and that was probably worth it. Beeks for Eovaldi looks good so far. TBD on Espinoza for Pomeranz, but it looks better now than it did at the time. Opinions vary on the Kimbrel trade. The rest is pretty inconsequential.
Good list. A couple of reminders on the underlined (based on my memory): - At the time Buttrey for Kinsler looked like a gross overpay, but the main factor was that the Angels ate part of Kinsler's contract so that the Red Sox could remain under the luxury tax. The Red Sox going over the luxury tax anyway is the primary reason I believe Dombrowski was let go (not something I can prove). - Pomeranz had injury issues prior to the trade but the Padres hid these from the Red Sox. A couple of weeks after the trade the Red Sox were given the option of reversing the trade by MLB, but they chose not to as the trade deadline has passed so they were out of starting pitching options. (for this reason I think Dombrowski should be given some slack) What’s being missed here is this. Kimbrel could have been replaced for cheaper Hill- big money for no production Ziegler- money for no production Pomeranz- big money. No production big time prospect Thorn burg- Big money. No production. Vast overpay Sale- eh ok. Nunez- major money ( $8 mil) quality starter for a bit Reed- again good money. Eovaldi- big money. Kinsler- horrible money. Buttrey was a closer for a year So how much $$$ did he overspend while giving away some good prospects??? Dombrowski was great at identifying studs. And tossing either big time prospects to get them or big time $$$. But the bottom of both roster and 40 man he just struggles to have quality pieces where he doesn’t have to continually spend that $5-$10 million to fill. Which take 3-4 of them and you get some cash. That and he goes a year to long on extensions. Tearsin04 is spot on with who dombrowski is. He will win and handcuff you for years while winning. Did it in Florida. Did it in Detroit. Did it in Boston.
|
|
|
Post by voiceofreason on May 3, 2021 18:11:10 GMT -5
DD did a good job with the position the team was in at that time. He brought us the magical 2018 season and did what he does best along the way. Which is to trade from the farm system for guys who would put the team over the top, ultimately building a super team at the expense of the future.
Bloom is doing a good job with the position the team was in when he took over. The Sox had to get under the cap and rebuild the farm system all while also trying to stay competitive in a market that doesn't like losing. I would say he is doing a good job of that with many under the radar moves that seem to be working.
Without getting into all the particulars that you guys already know I would say we have reason to be happy with both, mistakes and all. After this years draft along with some solid guys already on the farm I would like to think the system is climbing up to respectable again. And right now much of the team on the field is surprisingly good. As I said somewhere else, if the team is strong enough to have Kiki and Marwin as super utility guys coming off the bench then that is a tough team. How do we get there? Either this year or next? Add Sale and a few solid pieces and this team has turned it around again.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on May 3, 2021 18:14:30 GMT -5
Good list. A couple of reminders on the underlined (based on my memory): - At the time Buttrey for Kinsler looked like a gross overpay, but the main factor was that the Angels ate part of Kinsler's contract so that the Red Sox could remain under the luxury tax. The Red Sox going over the luxury tax anyway is the primary reason I believe Dombrowski was let go (not something I can prove). - Pomeranz had injury issues prior to the trade but the Padres hid these from the Red Sox. A couple of weeks after the trade the Red Sox were given the option of reversing the trade by MLB, but they chose not to as the trade deadline has passed so they were out of starting pitching options. (for this reason I think Dombrowski should be given some slack) What’s being missed here is this. Kimbrel could have been replaced for cheaper Hill- big money for no production Ziegler- money for no production Pomeranz- big money. No production big time prospect Thorn burg- Big money. No production. Vast overpay Sale- eh ok. Nunez- major money ( $8 mil) quality starter for a bit Reed- again good money. Eovaldi- big money. Kinsler- horrible money. Buttrey was a closer for a year So how much $$$ did he overspend while giving away some good prospects??? Dombrowski was great at identifying studs. And tossing either big time prospects to get them or big time $$$. But the bottom of both roster and 40 man he just struggles to have quality pieces where he doesn’t have to continually spend that $5-$10 million to fill. Which take 3-4 of them and you get some cash. That and he goes a year to long on extensions. Tearsin04 is spot on with who dombrowski is. He will win and handcuff you for years while winning. Did it in Florida. Did it in Detroit. Did it in Boston. Side note: 8 of the top 10 prospects, plus post-prospect Bobby Dalbec were DD picks.
|
|
|
Post by incandenza on May 3, 2021 18:31:13 GMT -5
What’s being missed here is this. Kimbrel could have been replaced for cheaper Hill- big money for no production Ziegler- money for no production Pomeranz- big money. No production big time prospect Thorn burg- Big money. No production. Vast overpay Sale- eh ok. Nunez- major money ( $8 mil) quality starter for a bit Reed- again good money. Eovaldi- big money. Kinsler- horrible money. Buttrey was a closer for a year So how much $$$ did he overspend while giving away some good prospects??? Dombrowski was great at identifying studs. And tossing either big time prospects to get them or big time $$$. But the bottom of both roster and 40 man he just struggles to have quality pieces where he doesn’t have to continually spend that $5-$10 million to fill. Which take 3-4 of them and you get some cash. That and he goes a year to long on extensions. Tearsin04 is spot on with who dombrowski is. He will win and handcuff you for years while winning. Did it in Florida. Did it in Detroit. Did it in Boston. Side note: 8 of the top 10 prospects, plus post-prospect Bobby Dalbec were DD picks. That's pretty much inevitable given that he captained the ship 2-5 years ago, no? So what you're saying is that he's responsible for a farm system that is bottom third in the majors.
|
|
|
Post by manfred on May 3, 2021 18:38:35 GMT -5
Side note: 8 of the top 10 prospects, plus post-prospect Bobby Dalbec were DD picks. That's pretty much inevitable given that he captained the ship 2-5 years ago, no? So what you're saying is that he's responsible for a farm system that is bottom third in the majors. Of course. And who knows how they work out. But people are very excited about Houck, Duran, and Casas... and go back and look at 2013-2015 and see how little there was to show for those. I’m merely responding to the idea he left the team “handcuffed,” when he left a lot of young guys at the MLB level and had actually drafted better than they had in previous years. Anyway, ratio has shifted with May rankings.
|
|
|
Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 3, 2021 18:38:53 GMT -5
What were the personnel shifts between 2018 and 2019? Holt for Nunez at second. Kimbrel became Workman. Otherwise... same team. Well you tell me then... why did the greatest team in Sox history turn into a mediocrity the very next season?
I think it's fine to credit Dombrowski with much of the success of the 2018 team and say that the price paid was worth it. But you seem to want to charge Bloom with that bill, when it's Dombrowski who wrote the IOUs.
Most of the core of 2018 was drafted and signed under Cherington and Theo. DD signed JD Martinez, Price, and traded for Sale and Kimbrel (also Thornberg 😖), but most of the team was already in place. Does the 2018 win the WS without Sale, Price, Pearce, no it probably does not, but the majority was in place when DD got to Boston and he does not deserve all the credit nor all the blame for the needed roster turnover.
|
|
cdj
Veteran
Posts: 14,185
Member is Online
|
Post by cdj on May 3, 2021 19:14:18 GMT -5
Good list. A couple of reminders on the underlined (based on my memory): - At the time Buttrey for Kinsler looked like a gross overpay, but the main factor was that the Angels ate part of Kinsler's contract so that the Red Sox could remain under the luxury tax. The Red Sox going over the luxury tax anyway is the primary reason I believe Dombrowski was let go (not something I can prove). - Pomeranz had injury issues prior to the trade but the Padres hid these from the Red Sox. A couple of weeks after the trade the Red Sox were given the option of reversing the trade by MLB, but they chose not to as the trade deadline has passed so they were out of starting pitching options. (for this reason I think Dombrowski should be given some slack) What’s being missed here is this. Kimbrel could have been replaced for cheaper Hill- big money for no production Ziegler- money for no production Pomeranz- big money. No production big time prospect Thorn burg- Big money. No production. Vast overpay Sale- eh ok. Nunez- major money ( $8 mil) quality starter for a bit Reed- again good money. Eovaldi- big money. Kinsler- horrible money. Buttrey was a closer for a year So how much $$$ did he overspend while giving away some good prospects??? Dombrowski was great at identifying studs. And tossing either big time prospects to get them or big time $$$. But the bottom of both roster and 40 man he just struggles to have quality pieces where he doesn’t have to continually spend that $5-$10 million to fill. Which take 3-4 of them and you get some cash. That and he goes a year to long on extensions. Tearsin04 is spot on with who dombrowski is. He will win and handcuff you for years while winning. Did it in Florida. Did it in Detroit. Did it in Boston. “Pomeranz = no production” is not accurate at all As for the thread I feel really good about what Bloom has done so far and the approach he’s taken, I feel like we are on the right track. Not flawless but very good
|
|
TearsIn04
Veteran
Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
Posts: 2,837
|
Post by TearsIn04 on May 3, 2021 19:34:27 GMT -5
What’s being missed here is this. Kimbrel could have been replaced for cheaper Hill- big money for no production Ziegler- money for no production Pomeranz- big money. No production big time prospect Thorn burg- Big money. No production. Vast overpay Sale- eh ok. Nunez- major money ( $8 mil) quality starter for a bit Reed- again good money. Eovaldi- big money. Kinsler- horrible money. Buttrey was a closer for a year So how much $$$ did he overspend while giving away some good prospects??? Dombrowski was great at identifying studs. And tossing either big time prospects to get them or big time $$$. But the bottom of both roster and 40 man he just struggles to have quality pieces where he doesn’t have to continually spend that $5-$10 million to fill. Which take 3-4 of them and you get some cash. That and he goes a year to long on extensions. Tearsin04 is spot on with who dombrowski is. He will win and handcuff you for years while winning. Did it in Florida. Did it in Detroit. Did it in Boston. Side note: 8 of the top 10 prospects, plus post-prospect Bobby Dalbec were DD picks. It would be pretty incredible if most of the top 10 were not DD picks. He ran the 2016 through 2019 drafts. It's worth noting that it's not a very good top 10. A few years from now, most of the top 10 will be CB picks. And I'm pretty confident in saying it'll be a better top 10 and not just because they're drafting high this year.
|
|
|
Post by dyoungteach on May 3, 2021 21:34:04 GMT -5
What’s being missed here is this. Kimbrel could have been replaced for cheaper Hill- big money for no production Ziegler- money for no production Pomeranz- big money. No production big time prospect Thorn burg- Big money. No production. Vast overpay Sale- eh ok. Nunez- major money ( $8 mil) quality starter for a bit Reed- again good money. Eovaldi- big money. Kinsler- horrible money. Buttrey was a closer for a year So how much $$$ did he overspend while giving away some good prospects??? Dombrowski was great at identifying studs. And tossing either big time prospects to get them or big time $$$. But the bottom of both roster and 40 man he just struggles to have quality pieces where he doesn’t have to continually spend that $5-$10 million to fill. Which take 3-4 of them and you get some cash. That and he goes a year to long on extensions. Tearsin04 is spot on with who dombrowski is. He will win and handcuff you for years while winning. Did it in Florida. Did it in Detroit. Did it in Boston. Side note: 8 of the top 10 prospects, plus post-prospect Bobby Dalbec were DD picks. Well no kidding. I would hope so. Bloom has been here for 1. Count that 1 draft of which only 5 players were picked. I sure would hope our bottom 10 minor league system is filled with dombrowski picks. I’ll agree that a couple of those picks are going to be good. And those couple I really like a lot. But let’s not kid ourselves. The Sox minor league system under dd wasn’t the best and kept getting worse
|
|
|
Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 3, 2021 22:25:43 GMT -5
What’s being missed here is this. Kimbrel could have been replaced for cheaper Hill- big money for no production Ziegler- money for no production Pomeranz- big money. No production big time prospect Thorn burg- Big money. No production. Vast overpay Sale- eh ok. Nunez- major money ( $8 mil) quality starter for a bit Reed- again good money. Eovaldi- big money. Kinsler- horrible money. Buttrey was a closer for a year So how much $$$ did he overspend while giving away some good prospects??? Dombrowski was great at identifying studs. And tossing either big time prospects to get them or big time $$$. But the bottom of both roster and 40 man he just struggles to have quality pieces where he doesn’t have to continually spend that $5-$10 million to fill. Which take 3-4 of them and you get some cash. That and he goes a year to long on extensions. Tearsin04 is spot on with who dombrowski is. He will win and handcuff you for years while winning. Did it in Florida. Did it in Detroit. Did it in Boston. “Pomeranz = no production” is not accurate at all As for the thread I feel really good about what Bloom has done so far and the approach he’s taken, I feel like we are on the right track. Not flawless but very good I completely agree! No GM is perfect as players sometimes get hurt or underperform, that said Bloom has generally done a good time job considering his mandate to stay under CBT. Bloom’s mandate was to cut payroll from $242 million to what was it around $208 million both for last year and this compared to DD open checkbook! Apples to oranges, Bloom has had a huge handicap compared to DD! DD does not come close to winning in 2018 without the huge payroll, and as a huge Red Sox fan I am glad DD was allowed to spend and win!, because watching that season was great!! Bloom will be allowed to spend when the team is close to winning again. Henry’s team’s value will be its greatest after the next WS win. That would be the time to sell the team if he ever decides to. DD was the right GM to turn around the mess from Cherington! Bloom is the right GM to rebuild the system after all DD’s trades, but what hurt the Red Sox even more was loosing all the international signing in the 2016-2017 offseason (which no one ever mentions)! Look at the current team and see how many players were international signings and that was probably a bigger deal than DD trading away many of the prospects that he traded. The problem happened on DD’s watch (was he responsible- i have no idea) and it made the depletion in the farm system far worse than what would have been the case.
|
|
|
Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 4, 2021 12:19:09 GMT -5
What’s being missed here is this. Kimbrel could have been replaced for cheaper Hill- big money for no production Ziegler- money for no production Pomeranz- big money. No production big time prospect Thorn burg- Big money. No production. Vast overpay Sale- eh ok. Nunez- major money ( $8 mil) quality starter for a bit Reed- again good money. Eovaldi- big money. Kinsler- horrible money. Buttrey was a closer for a year So how much $$$ did he overspend while giving away some good prospects??? Dombrowski was great at identifying studs. And tossing either big time prospects to get them or big time $$$. But the bottom of both roster and 40 man he just struggles to have quality pieces where he doesn’t have to continually spend that $5-$10 million to fill. Which take 3-4 of them and you get some cash. That and he goes a year to long on extensions. Tearsin04 is spot on with who dombrowski is. He will win and handcuff you for years while winning. Did it in Florida. Did it in Detroit. Did it in Boston. “Pomeranz = no production” is not accurate at all As for the thread I feel really good about what Bloom has done so far and the approach he’s taken, I feel like we are on the right track. Not flawless but very good You are correct in that Pomeranz was 17-6 with a 3.32 ERA in 2017. He was one of the better starters in the AL and helped the “Ortizless”, “13-3 in extra innings”, “offensively challenged”, 2017 Red Soxmake the playoffs. Interesting looking back....2016 had offense with Ortiz and Co,David Price, but not enough pitching,....2017 had Sale, Price, Pomeranz, but not enough offense (having not replaced Ortiz),....2018 with JD’S addition had everything needed to be the greatest Red Sox team ever!.... DD oversaw the only run of three straight division titles in team history! Great job and thank you! That said, Bloom was the right guy to take over when he did.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on May 4, 2021 13:30:31 GMT -5
“Pomeranz = no production” is not accurate at all As for the thread I feel really good about what Bloom has done so far and the approach he’s taken, I feel like we are on the right track. Not flawless but very good I completely agree! No GM is perfect as players sometimes get hurt or underperform, that said Bloom has generally done a good time job considering his mandate to stay under CBT. Bloom’s mandate was to cut payroll from $242 million to what was it around $208 million both for last year and this compared to DD open checkbook! Apples to oranges, Bloom has had a huge handicap compared to DD! DD does not come close to winning in 2018 without the huge payroll, and as a huge Red Sox fan I am glad DD was allowed to spend and win!, because watching that season was great!! Bloom will be allowed to spend when the team is close to winning again. Henry’s team’s value will be its greatest after the next WS win. That would be the time to sell the team if he ever decides to. DD was the right GM to turn around the mess from Cherington! Bloom is the right GM to rebuild the system after all DD’s trades, but what hurt the Red Sox even more was loosing all the international signing in the 2016-2017 offseason (which no one ever mentions)! Look at the current team and see how many players were international signings and that was probably a bigger deal than DD trading away many of the prospects that he traded. The problem happened on DD’s watch (was he responsible- i have no idea) and it made the depletion in the farm system far worse than what would have been the case. www.nhregister.com/mlb/article/Red-Sox-given-one-year-ban-on-signing-11327758.php Ben Cherington was responsible for the ban, yet the sanctions took place when DD was GM. Wiping out Cherington's last class and making things crazy hard on DD first class.
|
|
|
Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 4, 2021 17:04:06 GMT -5
I completely agree! No GM is perfect as players sometimes get hurt or underperform, that said Bloom has generally done a good time job considering his mandate to stay under CBT. Bloom’s mandate was to cut payroll from $242 million to what was it around $208 million both for last year and this compared to DD open checkbook! Apples to oranges, Bloom has had a huge handicap compared to DD! DD does not come close to winning in 2018 without the huge payroll, and as a huge Red Sox fan I am glad DD was allowed to spend and win!, because watching that season was great!! Bloom will be allowed to spend when the team is close to winning again. Henry’s team’s value will be its greatest after the next WS win. That would be the time to sell the team if he ever decides to. DD was the right GM to turn around the mess from Cherington! Bloom is the right GM to rebuild the system after all DD’s trades, but what hurt the Red Sox even more was loosing all the international signing in the 2016-2017 offseason (which no one ever mentions)! Look at the current team and see how many players were international signings and that was probably a bigger deal than DD trading away many of the prospects that he traded. The problem happened on DD’s watch (was he responsible- i have no idea) and it made the depletion in the farm system far worse than what would have been the case. www.nhregister.com/mlb/article/Red-Sox-given-one-year-ban-on-signing-11327758.php Ben Cherington was responsible for the ban, yet the sanctions took place when DD was GM. Wiping out Cherington's last class and making things crazy hard on DD first class.
Cherington’s watch included last place finishes in 2012, 2014, 2015. His “value” pickups somehow won the 2013 WS thanks to an unreal effort by Ortiz, and great pitching from Lester, Lacky, Koji, and others. The big mistakes did Ben in though: Hanley, Sandoval, Allen Craig trade, Rusney.... DD did a great job to reverse things so quickly, but that was why ownership brought him in... Amazing the year of lost international prospects was from Cherington too.......
|
|
|
Post by Jimmy on May 4, 2021 23:21:56 GMT -5
Revisiting Chaim Bloomâs recent moves 1 month into the season:
⢠Hembree and Workman for Pivetta and Seabold - A+. No explanation needed.
⢠Pillar for Wallace - B+. Got something for nothing. Needs to be revisited when we see more of Wallace.
⢠Moreland for Potts and Rosario - B+. Got something for nothing. Also needs to be revisited when we see more of Potts and Rosario.
⢠Springs and Mata for Hernandez - A. Somewhat shocking return for these two fringe guys out of options. Also needs to be revisited down the road.
⢠Kiké Hernandez - C. I think heâs been pretty much as expected. Numbers are pretty in line with his career line. Defense has been solid. Versatility hasnât been needed as much due to the emergence of Arroyo and Renfroe and Franchy sucking. But I expect the versatility will start to pay off when Duran comes up. I donât think being locked into Kiké for an additional year is favorable from what weâve seen so far. Since Marwin has been the worse of the two Iâll take the redundancy of him and Marwin out on Marwin.
⢠Matt Andriese - A+. No explanation needed.
⢠Garrett Richards - B+. I know Iâm going to get shelled for this one. He had to shake off some rust. Looked really good last two starts. Still dont know which version weâll get going forward but heâs flashed what he can be and the contract is super favorable. If the $10M team option wasnât there this grade would be a lot different.
⢠Garrett Whitlock - A+. No explanation needed.
⢠Benny trade - C- for now. This could be revised upwards or end up being an F. Too soon to tell but I wanted to throw a grade on it anyways. In Chaimâs defense if this was the 78-82 win team that a lot of people expected this move would have made a lot more sense. Weâll see how the return ends up and thereâs the (slim?) chance Franchy figures it out.
⢠Renfroe - C-. 3 years team control is favorable if he comes around. I like taking the shot this year to see if you can make something out of nothing. Probably not even worth the $3.1M based on his play so far but based on the long term upside itâs not awful.
⢠Marwin Gonzalez - D. Renfroe level of play without the long term upside. Somewhat redundant to Kiké. Would rather have brought Moreland back.
⢠Adam Ottovino - B+. Needed an 8th inning guy. Didnât have to lock someone up in a multi-year contract. Got a prospect back too. Seems to be working out nicely.
⢠Martin Perez - C. He is what he is. #5. Not too expensive. Not great. Good depth. Fine.
|
|
|
Post by dyoungteach on May 5, 2021 3:56:29 GMT -5
“Pomeranz = no production” is not accurate at all As for the thread I feel really good about what Bloom has done so far and the approach he’s taken, I feel like we are on the right track. Not flawless but very good You are correct in that Pomeranz was 17-6 with a 3.32 ERA in 2017. He was one of the better starters in the AL and helped the “Ortizless”, “13-3 in extra innings”, “offensively challenged”, 2017 Red Soxmake the playoffs. Interesting looking back....2016 had offense with Ortiz and Co,David Price, but not enough pitching,....2017 had Sale, Price, Pomeranz, but not enough offense (having not replaced Ortiz),....2018 with JD’S addition had everything needed to be the greatest Red Sox team ever!.... DD oversaw the only run of three straight division titles in team history! Great job and thank you! That said, Bloom was the right guy to take over when he did. I don’t know about great job. Good job ok. I just hate how he leaves teams in shambles because he goes so far all in. And you can’t make excuses saying welll xyz. No. He’s done it 3 places now. Florida. Detroit and Red Sox. After he gets fired or leaves the team and it’s foundation looks like a tornado has ripped through and it needs to be pieces back together requiring significant work and emotional sports pain. That’s what I don’t like. But yes he won no doubt about it. He won!
|
|
|
Post by Chris Hatfield on May 5, 2021 9:19:50 GMT -5
Springs and Mata for Hernandez - A. Somewhat shocking return for these two fringe guys out of options. Also needs to be revisited down the road. Not just quoting to point out the funny typo that makes it a very different trade, but just wanted to point out that Springs has been pretty good for them this year and is their 8th inning guy in a bullpen that's been just annihilated by injuries (Anderson, Fairbanks, Roe, McHugh, Mazza have all gone on IL since March, joining Chirinos, Beeks, Drake, and Poche - that's a pretty damn good bullpen on their IL).
|
|
|
Post by redsox04071318champs on May 5, 2021 9:38:22 GMT -5
You are correct in that Pomeranz was 17-6 with a 3.32 ERA in 2017. He was one of the better starters in the AL and helped the “Ortizless”, “13-3 in extra innings”, “offensively challenged”, 2017 Red Soxmake the playoffs. Interesting looking back....2016 had offense with Ortiz and Co,David Price, but not enough pitching,....2017 had Sale, Price, Pomeranz, but not enough offense (having not replaced Ortiz),....2018 with JD’S addition had everything needed to be the greatest Red Sox team ever!.... DD oversaw the only run of three straight division titles in team history! Great job and thank you! That said, Bloom was the right guy to take over when he did. I don’t know about great job. Good job ok. I just hate how he leaves teams in shambles because he goes so far all in. And you can’t make excuses saying welll xyz. No. He’s done it 3 places now. Florida. Detroit and Red Sox. After he gets fired or leaves the team and it’s foundation looks like a tornado has ripped through and it needs to be pieces back together requiring significant work and emotional sports pain. That’s what I don’t like. But yes he won no doubt about it. He won! I don't think that's completely fair. What shape did he leave Montreal in (awful Randy Johnson/Mark Langston deal aside) when he left? I'd argue in good shape and Duquette continued on with it and parlayed it into a job with the Red Sox. What shape did he leave the Marlins in after he made them an instant world series contender, and they won, was forced to dismantle them and rebuild? I would argue he left the Marlins in pretty good shape as those deals he made helped lead them to the World Series championship in 2003. He found the Tigers in awful shape and rebuilt them quickly and made them a strong franchise for about 7 - 10 year, which is a long stretch of time. The only difference was that he had a mandate to win now for an old owner and he had his team upset in the 2012 World Series - at least I thought the Tigers had a good chance to win, and he had Big Papi torpedo their chances in 2013 - I mean a staff with Scherzer/Verlander, etc. in their prime would be a team you'd think can win the big one. I think if you asked Tigers fans what they would have wanted after losing 119 games in 2003, Dombrowski's performance would be appreciated. That said, he often had trouble completing the depth of teams, with little moves. The Tigers were a top heavy type of team. Luckily with the Red Sox, he did complete their depth enough it actually surprised and helped the Sox win in 2018, but no, he did not properly plan ahead, so it cost him his job and understandably so. Still, I don't have any regrets. I have beautiful memories of a 2018 season that will likely never be duplicated in any of our lifetimes.
|
|
|
Post by Jimmy on May 5, 2021 10:40:38 GMT -5
Springs and Mata for Hernandez - A. Somewhat shocking return for these two fringe guys out of options. Also needs to be revisited down the road. Not just quoting to point out the funny typo that makes it a very different trade, but just wanted to point out that Springs has been pretty good for them this year and is their 8th inning guy in a bullpen that's been just annihilated by injuries (Anderson, Fairbanks, Roe, McHugh, Mazza have all gone on IL since March, joining Chirinos, Beeks, Drake, and Poche - that's a pretty damn good bullpen on their IL). Haha wow. Mazza. Yes that’s a much different trade with Mata.
|
|
|
Post by Soxfansince1971 on May 5, 2021 11:21:53 GMT -5
I don’t know about great job. Good job ok. I just hate how he leaves teams in shambles because he goes so far all in. And you can’t make excuses saying welll xyz. No. He’s done it 3 places now. Florida. Detroit and Red Sox. After he gets fired or leaves the team and it’s foundation looks like a tornado has ripped through and it needs to be pieces back together requiring significant work and emotional sports pain. That’s what I don’t like. But yes he won no doubt about it. He won! I don't think that's completely fair. What shape did he leave Montreal in (awful Randy Johnson/Mark Langston deal aside) when he left? I'd argue in good shape and Duquette continued on with it and parlayed it into a job with the Red Sox. What shape did he leave the Marlins in after he made them an instant world series contender, and they won, was forced to dismantle them and rebuild? I would argue he left the Marlins in pretty good shape as those deals he made helped lead them to the World Series championship in 2003. He found the Tigers in awful shape and rebuilt them quickly and made them a strong franchise for about 7 - 10 year, which is a long stretch of time. The only difference was that he had a mandate to win now for an old owner and he had his team upset in the 2012 World Series - at least I thought the Tigers had a good chance to win, and he had Big Papi torpedo their chances in 2013 - I mean a staff with Scherzer/Verlander, etc. in their prime would be a team you'd think can win the big one. I think if you asked Tigers fans what they would have wanted after losing 119 games in 2003, Dombrowski's performance would be appreciated. That said, he often had trouble completing the depth of teams, with little moves. The Tigers were a top heavy type of team. Luckily with the Red Sox, he did complete their depth enough it actually surprised and helped the Sox win in 2018, but no, he did not properly plan ahead, so it cost him his job and understandably so. Still, I don't have any regrets. I have beautiful memories of a 2018 season that will likely never be duplicated in any of our lifetimes. I am glad DD won 3 straight division titles and the WS. He did a great job of taking a great core lineup to the next level. The 2018 team was phenomenal, but he was not the right GM to rebuild for WS #5 since 2004! Bloom has built not a 40 man roster, but 60 or 70 with the controllable depth in the minor leagues. His incremental improvements have shown and will continue as you look at the improvements in the farm system! Being from San Diego I thought Richards was the best of a very suspect FA market for starting pitching. Richards did a good job while with the Padres, and although he has had injuries he is a good pitcher and I think will end up being a good addition as well as Perez. They fill out a rotation that did not need #1s and #2s.
|
|
|
Post by umassgrad2005 on May 5, 2021 12:39:22 GMT -5
You are correct in that Pomeranz was 17-6 with a 3.32 ERA in 2017. He was one of the better starters in the AL and helped the “Ortizless”, “13-3 in extra innings”, “offensively challenged”, 2017 Red Soxmake the playoffs. Interesting looking back....2016 had offense with Ortiz and Co,David Price, but not enough pitching,....2017 had Sale, Price, Pomeranz, but not enough offense (having not replaced Ortiz),....2018 with JD’S addition had everything needed to be the greatest Red Sox team ever!.... DD oversaw the only run of three straight division titles in team history! Great job and thank you! That said, Bloom was the right guy to take over when he did. I don’t know about great job. Good job ok. I just hate how he leaves teams in shambles because he goes so far all in. And you can’t make excuses saying welll xyz. No. He’s done it 3 places now. Florida. Detroit and Red Sox. After he gets fired or leaves the team and it’s foundation looks like a tornado has ripped through and it needs to be pieces back together requiring significant work and emotional sports pain. That’s what I don’t like. But yes he won no doubt about it. He won! Did you think Theo left the team in Shambles when he left? His worst signing in Eovaldi turned from horrible to darn good. Our last three GMs all did the same exact thing and Bloom will also do it, just wait. Ownership approves the deals and sets payroll, not the GM. Kinda of sick and tired for people blaming DD for ownerships orders and the way they run the team. Our owner MO is to go for it and then restock, then go for it and then restock. Maybe you don't like that strategy, yet GMs take orders from owners. It's like people blame DD because Swihart, Owen's, Margot, Guerra and Espinoza busting or never became what people thought. He only made one trade that hurts in the Sale trade and five years later Kopech is finally doing something in the majors. Yet people never blame Ben for basically causing us to lose two international classes, heck they blame DD. I'm actually a fan of what Bloom has done, yet our owners doing a rebuild year because that's their strategy allowed Bloom to do it. DD actually has a very long and very good history of rebuilding systems. He did great work with the expos and marlins. He didn't leave the Tigers worse off than they were when he took over and that's an extreme case of an older owner wanting to win at all costs. Kinda funny to say he left the Red Sox in shambles when they have the second best record in Baseball. Look at last year, Bloom couldn't find enough pitching depth. Allow him to make trades, have DD guys like Houck be ready and get top rule five draft picks because you were horrible and bam things look better. Have a horrible season when you can claim an unreal numbers of players and give them a try and you find a few. Not that Bloom doesn't do somethings differently, see Benintendi trade, yet he's had a different mandate and opportunities DD didn't have.
|
|
rasimon
Veteran
Posts: 433
Member is Online
|
Post by rasimon on May 5, 2021 12:40:11 GMT -5
Revisiting Chaim Bloomâs recent moves 1 month into the season: ⢠Hembree and Workman for Pivetta and Seabold - A+. No explanation needed. A+ At worst, Pivetta was going to be another Hembree. At best he could get his act together and turn into a mid-rotation starter. Seabold looked like an almost-certain back of the rotation starter. (Now he looks better but that was after the fact). Workman was a FA and there was no way we were going to give him a QO. Nice job! ⢠Pillar for Wallace - B+. B. Pillar is a good 4th OFer. His glove is not quite good enough for CF anymore and his bat isn't quite what you want for RF. He performed about as well as you could have hoped for last year. But he was about to become a FA too. Wallace is a college reliever with some upside potential. But he is not a top prospect either. If we really wanted Pillar back, we could have resigned him this off-season. B for the trade and A for the entire Pillar set of transactions (ignoring his political views) ⢠Moreland for Potts and Rosario - B+. C- each of Potts and Rosario has a big hole in their game. SD was loaded with prospects and we got two 20ish guys. I thought Moreland would be worth more. Disappointing. ⢠Springs and Mata for Hernandez - A. A Springs is a waiver wire type pickup. Mazza is a bit better. Hernandez is an actual prospect. C- I don't get this signing. Even if he were to hit 300/350/450 this year I still would not get it. He's a 2b/CF who can't hit RHers. If we are really tight on $ should we really be signing him to a 2 year deal at $7MM per year? This seems like a luxury to have not a building block. His performance this year doesn't really affect my opinion. He has seven or so years of semi-regular play. We knew his strengths and weaknesses when we signed him. B-. He's fine for a swing guy. He's cheap. Nothing special. ⢠Garrett Richards - B+. Ok I will disagree. C- If you are willing to pay $10MM for a guys who has not pitched more than 76 innings since 2015 why not make an aggressive offer for Kluber. (I know there was something about his not wanting to sign a long-term contract, and his trainer, but $$$ talks) ⢠Garrett Whitlock - A+. No explanation needed. A There were a bunch of good looking Rule 5 pickups this year and the Sox were, for once, in great draft position. Whitlock was in that group of good prospects and he has performed even better than expected. A at the time we drafted him. ⢠Benny trade - C- for now. Incomplete. C+ not sure what everyone was expecting here. We did not pay him much and got some option years. He doesn't hit RHers but he is very good against LHers. His defense seems pretty good. As a 4th OFer he's fine maybe a bit pricey. Not as a starter though. C as a utility guy he's fine maybe a bit pricey. As a starter he's not so good. His numbers this year are pretty much exactly in line with last year. B- I get that we needed a late inning option and that we also got a prospect with him. But the prospect we got was not that great (maybe the Sox have a different evaluation of him) It seems like for the $ we spent on Ottovino we could have gotten a better late inning option. But not bad either. C he's fine I guess. Maybe a bit expensive. Could Mazza do the same for less... probably. I would prefer to save the back of the rotation for guys newly up from the minors.
|
|
|