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Independent League Rule Changes
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Post by grandsalami on Apr 14, 2021 9:50:16 GMT -5
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Apr 14, 2021 9:54:07 GMT -5
Scary. If they mess with the 60 feet 6 inches, they'll screw up the heart of the game. Why not just move 1b to 80 feet rather than 90 feet if you're looking to mess up the game? It's ridiculous what they're trying to do to this game.
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Post by patford on Apr 14, 2021 9:57:27 GMT -5
This is far and away the stupidist thing I have heard yet.
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costpet
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Post by costpet on Apr 14, 2021 10:07:00 GMT -5
Ever wonder where the 6 inches came from? It turns out that back around 1905, someone wrote up the rules of baseball, then sent it to the printer. I guess his handwriting wasn’t too clear because where it was supposed to read 60 ft, but the printer saw “ft” as a “6”. So he interpreted it as 6 in. It was never corrected. Even that little bit could make a difference over time.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 14, 2021 10:07:43 GMT -5
Non-pitchers are striking out in 25% of at-bats this season. MLB has a problem with the ball not being put in play. This is a way to test one way to deal with that.
I don't see why this is a sacred thing. MLB has lowered the mound before (and frankly, how do you even check the height of the mound?). I don't get why moving it back is a huge deal.
The NBA has moved back the three-point line. The NHL has messed with whether it has a center line (I think?). The NFL has made all kinds of changes. The pro game is an entertainment product. When something happens that makes the game less entertaining, they should make changes to make it moreso.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Apr 14, 2021 10:08:34 GMT -5
This could be a developmental disaster. After a lifetime (well, after age 12ish) of throwing from the same distance, suddenly pitchers need to change everything? But then go back at the next level?
Is this a lingering April Fool’s joke?
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Post by grandsalami on Apr 14, 2021 10:09:24 GMT -5
Official press releasee
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 14, 2021 10:10:30 GMT -5
This could be a developmental disaster. After a lifetime (well, after age 12ish) of throwing from the same distance, suddenly pitchers need to change everything? But then go back at the next level? Is this a lingering April Fool’s joke? Many pro leagues have different rules than amateurs do. I don't see why that's such a problem.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Apr 14, 2021 10:12:09 GMT -5
Non-pitchers are striking out in 25% of at-bats this season. MLB has a problem with the ball not being put in play. This is a way to test one way to deal with that. I don't see why this is a sacred thing. MLB has lowered the mound before (and frankly, how do you even check the height of the mound?). I don't get why moving it back is a huge deal. The NBA has moved back the three-point line. The NHL has messed with whether it has a center line (I think?). The NFL has made all kinds of changes. The pro game is an entertainment product. When something happens that makes the game less entertaining, they should make changes to make it moreso. I would be fine with messing with the mound. Most of us played on all heights, and adjusting would be quick. But moving the mound back makes it totally different. Or... at least that *big* a move. Question: if you moved it back, say, 1/2 inch, 3/4 inch wouldn’t that reduce perceived velocity in an appreciable manner? I just wonder if you could make a far subtler shift that wouldn’t require massive adjustments by pitchers but give hitters a slightly increased chance?
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costpet
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Post by costpet on Apr 14, 2021 10:13:52 GMT -5
Little League kind of did the same thing. Back when I was pitching there, my 11 year old year the mound was 44 feet. That was 1958. The next year they changed it to 46 feet. That was a huge difference. Much harder to throw it by guys. It turns out they did it to protect pitchers from come-backers. Personally I didn’t like it. I’d rather strike them out. Oh well.
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Post by threeifbaerga on Apr 14, 2021 10:15:42 GMT -5
Non-pitchers are striking out in 25% of at-bats this season. MLB has a problem with the ball not being put in play. This is a way to test one way to deal with that. I don't see why this is a sacred thing. MLB has lowered the mound before (and frankly, how do you even check the height of the mound?). I don't get why moving it back is a huge deal. The NBA has moved back the three-point line. The NHL has messed with whether it has a center line (I think?). The NFL has made all kinds of changes. The pro game is an entertainment product. When something happens that makes the game less entertaining, they should make changes to make it moreso. I would be fine with messing with the mound. Most of us played on all heights, and adjusting would be quick. But moving the mound back makes it totally different. Or... at least that *big* a move. Question: if you moved it back, say, 1/2 inch, 3/4 inch wouldn’t that reduce perceived velocity in an appreciable manner? I just wonder if you could make a far subtler shift that wouldn’t require massive adjustments by pitchers but give hitters a slightly increased chance? This strikes me as the kind of thing they considered. I also do not understand why people get up in arms about trying things to make the game more enjoyable to watch in games that don't matter.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Apr 14, 2021 10:19:17 GMT -5
This could be a developmental disaster. After a lifetime (well, after age 12ish) of throwing from the same distance, suddenly pitchers need to change everything? But then go back at the next level? Is this a lingering April Fool’s joke? Many pro leagues have different rules than amateurs do. I don't see why that's such a problem. Well, I mean... obviously. But many of those rules are insignificant (little leaguers wear full face masks etc). So saying rules vary doesn’t give carte blanche to any variation. The issue is how much it changes the game. The 3 point line being a step back is not that big a deal. For one thing, you can scout college players’ range. For another, that extra foot won’t potentially cause injury. I just can’t imagine having spent 15 years working on making my mechanics precise so I can command and control my pitches, then being told to start over. It would be a really big adjustment.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 14, 2021 10:20:02 GMT -5
Non-pitchers are striking out in 25% of at-bats this season. MLB has a problem with the ball not being put in play. This is a way to test one way to deal with that. I don't see why this is a sacred thing. MLB has lowered the mound before (and frankly, how do you even check the height of the mound?). I don't get why moving it back is a huge deal. The NBA has moved back the three-point line. The NHL has messed with whether it has a center line (I think?). The NFL has made all kinds of changes. The pro game is an entertainment product. When something happens that makes the game less entertaining, they should make changes to make it moreso. I would be fine with messing with the mound. Most of us played on all heights, and adjusting would be quick. But moving the mound back makes it totally different. Or... at least that *big* a move. Question: if you moved it back, say, 1/2 inch, 3/4 inch wouldn’t that reduce perceived velocity in an appreciable manner? I just wonder if you could make a far subtler shift that wouldn’t require massive adjustments by pitchers but give hitters a slightly increased chance? Your answer is in the press release above. Moving the mound an inch isn't going to do anything.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 14, 2021 10:21:48 GMT -5
Many pro leagues have different rules than amateurs do. I don't see why that's such a problem. Well, I mean... obviously. But many of those rules are insignificant (little leaguers wear full face masks etc). So saying rules vary doesn’t give carte blanche to any variation. The issue is how much it changes the game. The 3 point line being a step back is not that big a deal. For one thing, you can scout college players’ range. For another, that extra foot won’t potentially cause injury. I just can’t imagine having spent 15 years working on making my mechanics precise so I can command and control my pitches, then being told to start over. It would be a really big adjustment. I think you're overselling how different a foot is. Go throw a ball. Take a 1-foot step back. Throw it again. Guys train with weighted balls, throwing from different distances, etc. I don't think one foot is going to require people to re-learn to pitch. (And at any rate, that's the point of trying this in the Atlantic League first. If the feedback is that everyone hates it they won't do it.)
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Apr 14, 2021 10:23:57 GMT -5
I would be fine with messing with the mound. Most of us played on all heights, and adjusting would be quick. But moving the mound back makes it totally different. Or... at least that *big* a move. Question: if you moved it back, say, 1/2 inch, 3/4 inch wouldn’t that reduce perceived velocity in an appreciable manner? I just wonder if you could make a far subtler shift that wouldn’t require massive adjustments by pitchers but give hitters a slightly increased chance? This strikes me as the kind of thing they considered. I also do not understand why people get up in arms about trying things to make the game more enjoyable to watch in games that don't matter. I agree with this by and large, but this is a site that follows prospects... so I prefer they do things that don’t necessarily slow normal development. If they create rules that will never make it up the ladder, then why experiment on guys trying to develop... especially if it impedes their normal progress? Would we be happy if they said “hey, Jay Groome, this year you throw from 70 feet.”? Naw, cause it would seem silly and he’d effectively lose a year of working on what he needs to work on. I can see the argument that these guys aren’t Jay Groome. But having a guinea pig league seems kinda gross to me too.
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Post by Oregon Norm on Apr 14, 2021 10:29:32 GMT -5
What it will change is the muscle memory needed to get a certain break at a specific point in the trajectory. Should be interesting.
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manfred
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Post by manfred on Apr 14, 2021 10:29:43 GMT -5
Well, I mean... obviously. But many of those rules are insignificant (little leaguers wear full face masks etc). So saying rules vary doesn’t give carte blanche to any variation. The issue is how much it changes the game. The 3 point line being a step back is not that big a deal. For one thing, you can scout college players’ range. For another, that extra foot won’t potentially cause injury. I just can’t imagine having spent 15 years working on making my mechanics precise so I can command and control my pitches, then being told to start over. It would be a really big adjustment. I think you're overselling how different a foot is. Go throw a ball. Take a 1-foot step back. Throw it again. Guys train with weighted balls, throwing from different distances, etc. I don't think one foot is going to require people to re-learn to pitch. (And at any rate, that's the point of trying this in the Atlantic League first. If the feedback is that everyone hates it they won't do it.) I pitched through college and would have hated this. It isn’t just throwing fastballs. It is where breaking balls break, change ups dip. You spend hundreds, thousands of hours repeating the exact thing, then you are told... do it differently. Then, a year later, do it differently again. Look, I’m for experimenting, so I don’t mean to go over the top on this. It just seems, in advance, like a waste of time and like something that will screw up pitchers for no real positive outcome. Anyway, these kids have a short time to show they can succeed, so giving them this to work on instead of the real business seems kind of unfair. A guy who needs to develop a second pitch to get the FO’s attention will be going back to the drawing board instead on basics. Edit: Ok, Chris is probably right. It is a bit of a freak league anyway. But it does still feel like it’ll just cause problems for pitchers without doing a ton of good.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 14, 2021 10:40:34 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying, but as far as the players in the Atlantic League, I don't think scouts are going to account for the fact they're throwing from a foot farther back.
It will be very interesting to see, if this takes, what the NCAA does.
Generally, pro athletes do adapt - NBA players have a farther 3 point line being the most analogous difference, I think, but there are big differences in the pro and amateur levels for any sport.
EDIT: Typo.
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on Apr 14, 2021 11:41:44 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying, but as far as the players in the Atlantic League, I don't think scouts are going to account for the fact they're throwing from a foot farther back. It will be very interesting to see, if this takes, what the NCAA does. Generally, pro athletes do adapt - NBA players have a farther 3 point line being the most analogous difference, I think, but there are big differences in the pro and amateur levels for any sport. I'd like to point out most catchers don't set up that close to the plate to begin with to avoid catchers interference, so most of these guys are already throwing 65-66 feet already unwittingly. I'm far more suspect of the double hook DH thing they are experimenting with.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Apr 14, 2021 11:58:01 GMT -5
A couple of items regarding moving the mound back that I haven't heard mentioned as of yet.
1. Injury rate of pitchers from batted balls may decrease: In the same way that the hitter will see pitches at ~2% reduced velocity, the pitcher should also see the ball coming back to the mound at ~2.4% reduced velocity (due to 1 foot of distance and reduced pitch speed) which may reduce the rate of injury for pitchers. The reduced rate may be insignificant, but it could also be considerable - we won't know until there's significant data.
2. Will home runs increase or decrease?: On the one hand, the hitter will have a greater amount of time to square up the pitch, which should increase home run rate (think of the home run derby). But on the other hand, the decrease velocity of the pitch at point-of-impact should lead to a ~0.4% reduction in exit velocity (this should decrease home run distance by 1.5-2 feet on average). My guess is that this leads to an overall increase in home runs (not what the game needs imo) with a slight reduction of home-run-rate among players with lesser bat speed.
I'm excited about this. I don't know exactly what will happen, but I hope it will be interesting and lead to a great deal of more interest this year in the Atlantic League. If MLB keeps pushing these rule changes in MiLB it may increase interest in minor league baseball in general.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Apr 14, 2021 12:12:08 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying, but as far as the players in the Atlantic League, I don't think scouts are going to account for the fact they're throwing from a foot farther back. It will be very interesting to see, if this takes, what the NCAA does. Generally, pro athletes do adapt - NBA players have a farther 3 point line being the most analogous difference, I think, but there are big differences in the pro and amateur levels for any sport. I'd like to point out most catchers don't set up that close to the plate to begin with to avoid catchers interference, so most of these guys are already throwing 65-66 feet already unwittingly. I'm far more suspect of the double hook DH thing they are experimenting with. Everyone is focusing on the "DH" aspect of that new rule, which does make sense, but I think the real impetus is they're trying to think of ways to keep starters in games longer. I don't know that I love doing it this way... but I'm also not sure how else you can do it. By the way, I STRONGLY suggest that everyone check out Jayson Stark and Doug Glanville's interview with Theo Epstein: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/theo-epstein-is-determined-to-fix-baseball/id1558220009?i=1000514984642 Really gives insight into what they're thinking. It does seem like they're off the silly "baseball games take too long" thing and are onto the more reasonable "not enough exciting stuff happens during baseball games."
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Post by julyanmorley on Apr 14, 2021 13:06:23 GMT -5
I don't know how this will work out, but I think there is potential for "adjusting the mound distance" to be a useful lever to pull to make the game the best it can be. I'm not convinced that there is much risk in letting the Atlantic League try this. I don't feel the current distance is sacred in any way.
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shagworthy
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Post by shagworthy on Apr 14, 2021 15:48:25 GMT -5
I'd like to point out most catchers don't set up that close to the plate to begin with to avoid catchers interference, so most of these guys are already throwing 65-66 feet already unwittingly. I'm far more suspect of the double hook DH thing they are experimenting with. Everyone is focusing on the "DH" aspect of that new rule, which does make sense, but I think the real impetus is they're trying to think of ways to keep starters in games longer. I don't know that I love doing it this way... but I'm also not sure how else you can do it. By the way, I STRONGLY suggest that everyone check out Jayson Stark and Doug Glanville's interview with Theo Epstein: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/theo-epstein-is-determined-to-fix-baseball/id1558220009?i=1000514984642 Really gives insight into what they're thinking. It does seem like they're off the silly "baseball games take too long" thing and are onto the more reasonable "not enough exciting stuff happens during baseball games." I can't imagine the PA ever being on board on tying plate appearances for players to the performance of other players. I understand the idea behind forcing teams to keep their starters in longer, and I agree, there isn't many levers one can pull to assure this behavior, I just think this particular way is hokey. Imagine how many games would have been impacted if after 5 innings Ortiz had to ride the pine because the pitcher stunk that day? The whole arc of his career as one of the most "clutch" hitters ever would have never even materialized. I'd rather see a 1 runner penalty for taking your pitcher out, than automatically losing your DH for the game.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Apr 14, 2021 17:10:43 GMT -5
Non-pitchers are striking out in 25% of at-bats this season. MLB has a problem with the ball not being put in play. This is a way to test one way to deal with that. I don't see why this is a sacred thing. MLB has lowered the mound before (and frankly, how do you even check the height of the mound?). I don't get why moving it back is a huge deal. The NBA has moved back the three-point line. The NHL has messed with whether it has a center line (I think?). The NFL has made all kinds of changes. The pro game is an entertainment product. When something happens that makes the game less entertaining, they should make changes to make it moreso. While I agree, my only concern is how this might impact player development and if some pitchers become substantially worse if implemented at the ML level at some point. No reason not to change the game to improve it, but I would hate to give a guy a massive contract only to have them completely fall apart because they can't adjust. It's probably a non-issue and if universal no one team gains any advantage.
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Post by foreverred9 on Apr 14, 2021 17:16:00 GMT -5
I think we're all jumping too quickly to thinking this will be implemented. I don't like the idea, but let's run the test and quantify what the true impact it is. Then we can do the analysis and (1) see if there's a noticeable impact and (2) discuss the tradeoffs to see if it's really worth messing with tradition.
Doing it for the second half will at least allow them to create a baseline. I'd also be curious how they'll adjust for what surely will be a hitter's advantage since pitchers throwing at 61.5 feet today with no prior training would be a lot different from a steady state future where pitchers are used to that difference.
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