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Patriots 2022 Offseason Thread
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 8, 2022 10:09:20 GMT -5
I was going to bring up Onwenu being post Dante but figured someone would do so and I left that out. Just saying when you have an all time great coaching it improves your chances of developing good players out of nowhere.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 8, 2022 11:25:46 GMT -5
The Patriots invest a ton of draft capital on the OL. At minimum they are always taking chances on lower picks.
Where you miss Dante is making Wynn and Onwenu work, the stupid penalties, that type of crap. Dante wasn't a miracle worker, just a good coach.
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 8, 2022 11:58:42 GMT -5
The Patriots invest a ton of draft capital on the OL. At minimum they are always taking chances on lower picks. Where you miss Dante is making Wynn and Onwenu work, the stupid penalties, that type of crap. Dante wasn't a miracle worker, just a good coach. Are you saying a good/great coach doesn't actually develop players or are you just being argumentative for the sake of your opinion? Because I remember many guys crediting him with there development and ability to make good money as UFAs when leaving the Pats.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 8, 2022 12:19:35 GMT -5
The Patriots invest a ton of draft capital on the OL. At minimum they are always taking chances on lower picks. Where you miss Dante is making Wynn and Onwenu work, the stupid penalties, that type of crap. Dante wasn't a miracle worker, just a good coach. Are you saying a good/great coach doesn't actually develop players or are you just being argumentative for the sake of your opinion? Because I remember many guys crediting him with there development and ability to make good money as UFAs when leaving the Pats. I'm saying the Patriots draft a lot of talent on the OL, it was never Dante turns crappy talent into good talent. Like I said he likely helps make our current line better, yet it's a very talented bunch of players.
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 8, 2022 13:42:47 GMT -5
Are you saying a good/great coach doesn't actually develop players or are you just being argumentative for the sake of your opinion? Because I remember many guys crediting him with there development and ability to make good money as UFAs when leaving the Pats. I'm saying the Patriots draft a lot of talent on the OL, it was never Dante turns crappy talent into good talent. Like I said he likely helps make our current line better, yet it's a very talented bunch of players. Five O linemen taken in the first 2 rounds over the last 20 years might support development of players over drafting high end talent. The Pats Olines have most often been made up of guys drafted in the 4,5,6 rounds. I will agree that it is a talented group right now and add that they should be better as a group, hopefully next yr they will be. I also think that Wynn might be better if he had Dante as a coach. The Pats will have one of the best RB tandems in the league next season so dominant play upfront will be very important for the O and Mac to compete. They need to be better than they were this season.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 8, 2022 15:24:49 GMT -5
Under Bill Patriots have made 36 picks on OL, 3 in the 1st, 3 in the second, 4 in the third, 9 in the 4th, 4 in the 5th, 10 in the 6th, and 3 in the 7th.
At LT since 2001 you went Matt Light 2nd round, Nate Solder first round to Wynn first round. That's high end talent at the most important position for 20 years. You take Mankins in the first and he locks down a G spot for 9 years. You take Vollmer in the second he holds down RT for 7 years. You take Thuney high third and get 5 great years. You take Shaq Mason in the 4th and get 7 years and counting of darn good play.
That's a ton of picks given so many hits over the years. Yet it's what Bill does,loads up on OL depth every year. Also important to look at where the picks are taken, your LT go 1st to 2nd the high end ones, RT 2-3, guards 3-5, centers 3-5. The recent exception recently was Marcus Cannon in the 5th at RT. Yet he had cancer and dropped during the draft, he was rated much higher. Your huge buck in the trend in Onwenu at RT, yet Dante is gone then.
I'm not trying to slight Dante either, darn good coach. He just made a bunch of talent look good. Example he likely make Wynn better, he's not making Herron a high level LT.
Last year OL 28 sacks and 5.1% sack rate. That's actually darn good given the early troubles. In line with Tom Bradys career numbers as a Patriot. 8th rushing attempts, 8th in yards, 2nd in TDs.
Passing 25th in attempts, 14th in yards and 15th in TDs. I'm not worried about our running game and our OL one bit. I'm actually really encouraged given how bad Wynn/ Onwenu was and Durant/Herron at RT those first 4 games. I see some people think the fix was Trent Brown, I thought it was starting Karras at G and Onwenu at RT after 4 games. The line was already fixed when Brown got healthy. Nevermind Onwenu and Shaq Mason are one heck of a run blocking pair.
Like I said before, given our draft capital I'm looking round 4-6th at OG and OC. Given the draft, you can usually find starter level talent at those positions. Then next year depending on Wynn, it might be LT time again.
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Post by texs31 on Feb 8, 2022 16:25:46 GMT -5
Patriots bringing back Joe Judge as "Offensive Assistant".
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 9, 2022 6:37:06 GMT -5
Under Bill Patriots have made 36 picks on OL, 3 in the 1st, 3 in the second, 4 in the third, 9 in the 4th, 4 in the 5th, 10 in the 6th, and 3 in the 7th. At LT since 2001 you went Matt Light 2nd round, Nate Solder first round to Wynn first round. That's high end talent at the most important position for 20 years. You take Mankins in the first and he locks down a G spot for 9 years. You take Vollmer in the second he holds down RT for 7 years. You take Thuney high third and get 5 great years. You take Shaq Mason in the 4th and get 7 years and counting of darn good play. That's a ton of picks given so many hits over the years. Yet it's what Bill does,loads up on OL depth every year. Also important to look at where the picks are taken, your LT go 1st to 2nd the high end ones, RT 2-3, guards 3-5, centers 3-5. The recent exception recently was Marcus Cannon in the 5th at RT. Yet he had cancer and dropped during the draft, he was rated much higher. Your huge buck in the trend in Onwenu at RT, yet Dante is gone then. I'm not trying to slight Dante either, darn good coach. He just made a bunch of talent look good. Example he likely make Wynn better, he's not making Herron a high level LT. Last year OL 28 sacks and 5.1% sack rate. That's actually darn good given the early troubles. In line with Tom Bradys career numbers as a Patriot. 8th rushing attempts, 8th in yards, 2nd in TDs. Passing 25th in attempts, 14th in yards and 15th in TDs. I'm not worried about our running game and our OL one bit. I'm actually really encouraged given how bad Wynn/ Onwenu was and Durant/Herron at RT those first 4 games. I see some people think the fix was Trent Brown, I thought it was starting Karras at G and Onwenu at RT after 4 games. The line was already fixed when Brown got healthy. Nevermind Onwenu and Shaq Mason are one heck of a run blocking pair. Like I said before, given our draft capital I'm looking round 4-6th at OG and OC. Given the draft, you can usually find starter level talent at those positions. Then next year depending on Wynn, it might be LT time again. I think the answer here is somewhere in the middle. They used draft capital but most of those higher picks hit and did really well. Look at other positions where that didn’t happen as often. Also, a guy like Volmer in the second round was super raw and that was a HUGE reach at the time. Maybe not Duron Harmon reach but he was a project that was supposed to go 4/5 rounds. Stephen Neal never played football and he helped turn him into a pro-bowler. Shaq Mason as a 4th rounder should be on the list in favor of development not on the using draft capital side. He was picked at the very end of the 4th, earlier that round m they had taken Tre Jackson. Oddly, they listed Mason as a center out of that draft. Side note, go back and look at that Patriots draft. They got Flowers, Mason and Cardona from it. So it wasn’t a failure but it’s hardly a success either. But 6 of 11 guys they drafted are all still playing in the NFL 7 years later. That’s pretty good.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,789
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Post by mobaz on Feb 9, 2022 9:21:24 GMT -5
The OL misses in 2017-19 are hurting us. To have nothing to show for 2019 (Cajuste #101, Frojhold #118), 2018 (no OL) and 2017 (two of our four picks were OL, Garica #85 and McDermott #211) is killing us. No one should expect to get quality players for those picks but the Pats have successfully done so for the remainder of BB's tenure.
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 9, 2022 9:23:25 GMT -5
I thought Neal would have had a better chance of succeeding on D as it would be easier to learn and that is where the Pats put him 1st. Next thing you know he is a starting guard that had a very good career and was on 3 SB winning teams, that was surprising. I still remember the play when everyone on the field thought it was a dead ball except Neal who went over and recovered it smartly, funny how the wrestler turned football player was the one who knew it was still live.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 9, 2022 9:50:47 GMT -5
The OL misses in 2017-19 are hurting us. To have nothing to show for 2019 (Cajuste #101, Frojhold #118), 2018 (no OL) and 2017 (two of our four picks were OL, Garica #85 and McDermott #211) is killing us. No one should expect to get quality players for those picks but the Pats have successfully done so for the remainder of BB's tenure. “Killing us” is a bit strong. This team still has a very good offensive line. Yea it’d be nice to have gotten some depth from that group, but that’s kind of how things go. Technically, Cajuste could still give them something, he was essentially a rookie last year, but your point remains, they wouldn’t have as many depth questions if one of those guys hit as a reliable player.
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mobaz
Veteran
Posts: 2,789
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Post by mobaz on Feb 9, 2022 10:39:23 GMT -5
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 9, 2022 12:37:20 GMT -5
Under Bill Patriots have made 36 picks on OL, 3 in the 1st, 3 in the second, 4 in the third, 9 in the 4th, 4 in the 5th, 10 in the 6th, and 3 in the 7th. At LT since 2001 you went Matt Light 2nd round, Nate Solder first round to Wynn first round. That's high end talent at the most important position for 20 years. You take Mankins in the first and he locks down a G spot for 9 years. You take Vollmer in the second he holds down RT for 7 years. You take Thuney high third and get 5 great years. You take Shaq Mason in the 4th and get 7 years and counting of darn good play. That's a ton of picks given so many hits over the years. Yet it's what Bill does,loads up on OL depth every year. Also important to look at where the picks are taken, your LT go 1st to 2nd the high end ones, RT 2-3, guards 3-5, centers 3-5. The recent exception recently was Marcus Cannon in the 5th at RT. Yet he had cancer and dropped during the draft, he was rated much higher. Your huge buck in the trend in Onwenu at RT, yet Dante is gone then. I'm not trying to slight Dante either, darn good coach. He just made a bunch of talent look good. Example he likely make Wynn better, he's not making Herron a high level LT. Last year OL 28 sacks and 5.1% sack rate. That's actually darn good given the early troubles. In line with Tom Bradys career numbers as a Patriot. 8th rushing attempts, 8th in yards, 2nd in TDs. Passing 25th in attempts, 14th in yards and 15th in TDs. I'm not worried about our running game and our OL one bit. I'm actually really encouraged given how bad Wynn/ Onwenu was and Durant/Herron at RT those first 4 games. I see some people think the fix was Trent Brown, I thought it was starting Karras at G and Onwenu at RT after 4 games. The line was already fixed when Brown got healthy. Nevermind Onwenu and Shaq Mason are one heck of a run blocking pair. Like I said before, given our draft capital I'm looking round 4-6th at OG and OC. Given the draft, you can usually find starter level talent at those positions. Then next year depending on Wynn, it might be LT time again. I think the answer here is somewhere in the middle. They used draft capital but most of those higher picks hit and did really well. Look at other positions where that didn’t happen as often. Also, a guy like Volmer in the second round was super raw and that was a HUGE reach at the time. Maybe not Duron Harmon reach but he was a project that was supposed to go 4/5 rounds. Stephen Neal never played football and he helped turn him into a pro-bowler. Shaq Mason as a 4th rounder should be on the list in favor of development not on the using draft capital side. He was picked at the very end of the 4th, earlier that round m they had taken Tre Jackson. Oddly, they listed Mason as a center out of that draft. Side note, go back and look at that Patriots draft. They got Flowers, Mason and Cardona from it. So it wasn’t a failure but it’s hardly a success either. But 6 of 11 guys they drafted are all still playing in the NFL 7 years later. That’s pretty good. Well OL picks are some of the safer picks in the draft. Bill talked about Vollmer tape was 4/5th yet his athletic profile and size weren't. He also talked about how other teams valued him highly so he took him before they did. He had a wide range in my draft magazines. It just depends how you grade guys, based on tape or upside. I'd have to go pull them out, yet I certainly remember one ranking him very high like second round based on his tools. Pick 131 isn't that low for an OG. Last draft the top two guards went pick 48 and 86. Two OG ranked in the top 5 in Trey Smith and Deonte Brown were picked 193 and 226. Multiple places had them rated as 2nd/3rd round prospects. Nevermind Shaq Mason played on that crazy Georgia Tech team that basically just ran the ball, so there were questions on his pass protection because he basically never did it. Good OG and OC drop every year. I'm not saying Dante wasn't a very good coach, he was. Yet he was given a bunch of talent also. I use Onwenu and Herron as examples of why you won't miss him finding talent late. I wish we still had Dante, yet it has nothing to do with Bill not being able to find talent late in the draft for the OL.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 9, 2022 12:41:19 GMT -5
I think the answer here is somewhere in the middle. They used draft capital but most of those higher picks hit and did really well. Look at other positions where that didn’t happen as often. Also, a guy like Volmer in the second round was super raw and that was a HUGE reach at the time. Maybe not Duron Harmon reach but he was a project that was supposed to go 4/5 rounds. Stephen Neal never played football and he helped turn him into a pro-bowler. Shaq Mason as a 4th rounder should be on the list in favor of development not on the using draft capital side. He was picked at the very end of the 4th, earlier that round m they had taken Tre Jackson. Oddly, they listed Mason as a center out of that draft. Side note, go back and look at that Patriots draft. They got Flowers, Mason and Cardona from it. So it wasn’t a failure but it’s hardly a success either. But 6 of 11 guys they drafted are all still playing in the NFL 7 years later. That’s pretty good. Well OL picks are some of the safer picks in the draft. Bill talked about Vollmer tape was 4/5th yet his athletic profile and size weren't. He also talked about how other teams valued him highly so he took him before they did. He had a wide range in my draft magazines. It just depends how you grade guys, based on tape or upside. I'd have to go pull them out, yet I certainly remember one ranking him very high like second round based on his tools. Pick 131 isn't that low for an OG. Last draft the top two guards went pick 48 and 86. Two OG ranked in the top 5 in Trey Smith and Deonte Brown were picked 193 and 226. Multiple places had them rated as 2nd/3rd round prospects. Nevermind Shaq Mason played on that crazy Georgia Tech team that basically just ran the ball, so there were questions on his pass protection because he basically never did it. Good OG and OC drop every year. I'm not saying Dante wasn't a very good coach, he was. Yet he was given a bunch of talent also. I use Onwenu and Herron as examples of why you won't miss him finding talent late. I wish we still had Dante, yet it has nothing to do with Bill not being able to find talent late in the draft for the OL. Idk, I’m the guy who think Dante should be in the HOF so I’m probably biased in my opinion.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 10, 2022 11:21:31 GMT -5
Bill is the best coach in the History of the NFL, heck maybe the best overall coach in any sport ever. That doesn't mean he coached no talent and had to turn water into wine right? Any coach that is considered great, only reaches that level because he coached great talent. It's what let's his talent shine no?
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 10, 2022 17:05:00 GMT -5
Bill is the best coach in the History of the NFL, heck maybe the best overall coach in any sport ever. That doesn't mean he coached no talent and had to turn water into wine right? Any coach that is considered great, only reaches that level because he coached great talent. It's what let's his talent shine no? Once again an argument could be made that by picking last in each round for most of the last 20 years has given every other team an advantage in getting the best talent. Coaching made up the difference. Back in the old days of the NHL the Canadians were the best but they also had the advantage of picking the best Canadian players first every draft, it was a league rule that was changed in the 60's. Now think about how infrequently the Pats had a top 10 pick or even top 15 over the last 20 years. The few they did have they hit on big right? Mayo, Seymour are the only top 10s. Now imagine if the Pats were picking in the top 10 most of the time like some of the bad teams in the league. BB does more with less!!
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 10, 2022 17:42:59 GMT -5
You had the best QB in History for almost two decades. Nevermind he took below market deals, which was huge in having money to add more talent.
Every team that is good, picks in the bottom of the first. So I just don't understand that logic, nevermind the NFL draft isn't the NBA draft.
Add in Bill would trade anyone if they wouldn't sign team friendly long-term deals. Nevermind the veterans that took cheap deal to win a championship. You can make a darn good argument that Bill the GM is a HOF just based on that.
You'd have a real hard time trying to prove to me that the Patriots weren't one of the most talented teams the last 20 years. They were crazy deep at most positions. Most teams wanted the best starters, Bill wanted the best 53 man roster. It allowed them to withstand injuries better than most teams.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 11, 2022 6:47:02 GMT -5
The Patriots had good talent that’s the truth. I just quibbled with a couple of the guys listed in the category of high end talent when drafted.
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Post by voiceofreason on Feb 11, 2022 18:47:27 GMT -5
You had the best QB in History for almost two decades. Nevermind he took below market deals, which was huge in having money to add more talent. Every team that is good, picks in the bottom of the first. So I just don't understand that logic, nevermind the NFL draft isn't the NBA draft. Add in Bill would trade anyone if they wouldn't sign team friendly long-term deals. Nevermind the veterans that took cheap deal to win a championship. You can make a darn good argument that Bill the GM is a HOF just based on that. You'd have a real hard time trying to prove to me that the Patriots weren't one of the most talented teams the last 20 years. They were crazy deep at most positions. Most teams wanted the best starters, Bill wanted the best 53 man roster. It allowed them to withstand injuries better than most teams. You just said it in your last paragraph. BB invested in the middle class and valued a deep team rather than a top heavy star studded team. For a team that won 6 Super Bowls and went to countless AFC Championship games how many HOF players were there? How many Pro Bowlers? How many guys had good careers somewhere else after leaving NE? BB is the coach that could take your players and win the game but you couldn't beat his team. He got the most out of the players and was the reason for many successful players who developed under his coaching. Sorry umass but you are simply wrong if you don't think great coaches make a difference in a player developing into a real player or not. It happens everywhere in life, mentors and managers help people succeed with knowledge that they have yet to attain.
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Post by Don Caballero on Feb 11, 2022 21:31:14 GMT -5
Sorry umass but you are simply wrong if you don't think great coaches make a difference in a player developing into a real player or not. It happens everywhere in life, mentors and managers help people succeed with knowledge that they have yet to attain. Yeah but it's a mutual thing, no? It's not like Bill was ever coaching some JAGs into superstars. He coached good players into great players.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 12, 2022 0:56:47 GMT -5
You had the best QB in History for almost two decades. Nevermind he took below market deals, which was huge in having money to add more talent. Every team that is good, picks in the bottom of the first. So I just don't understand that logic, nevermind the NFL draft isn't the NBA draft. Add in Bill would trade anyone if they wouldn't sign team friendly long-term deals. Nevermind the veterans that took cheap deal to win a championship. You can make a darn good argument that Bill the GM is a HOF just based on that. You'd have a real hard time trying to prove to me that the Patriots weren't one of the most talented teams the last 20 years. They were crazy deep at most positions. Most teams wanted the best starters, Bill wanted the best 53 man roster. It allowed them to withstand injuries better than most teams. You just said it in your last paragraph. BB invested in the middle class and valued a deep team rather than a top heavy star studded team. For a team that won 6 Super Bowls and went to countless AFC Championship games how many HOF players were there? How many Pro Bowlers? How many guys had good careers somewhere else after leaving NE? BB is the coach that could take your players and win the game but you couldn't beat his team. He got the most out of the players and was the reason for many successful players who developed under his coaching. Sorry umass but you are simply wrong if you don't think great coaches make a difference in a player developing into a real player or not. It happens everywhere in life, mentors and managers help people succeed with knowledge that they have yet to attain. I said Bill wanted the best 53, that doesn't mean no talent. It's means the opposite, he had more overall talent. Bill might have 5 stars on a team and some teams have 7-8, yet depth is talent. Harris and Steveson aren't stars, still one of the best combos in the NFL. If White was healthy, you get the point. Are they a better team with Elliot making crazy money because he's a star? I think pro bowl talent as a bar is kinda crazy. Example Rodney Harrison makes first team all pro in 2003, no pro bowl. Terry Gleen makes the pro bowl, yet Julian Edelman never did. Yet they had 39 players make the pro bowl. That's only counting guys who made it as Patriots under Bill, not players like Drew Bledsoe who he coached yet made it before Bill. That's also just the players, a ton of them made a bunch of pro bowls. It's a crazy impressive list, with players stretching 20 plus years. Of course I believe coaches can make a big difference. Bill made Tom Brady the best he could be. That's not the same as saying it was all just coaches turning average players into great ones. It's more like Bill takes pro Bowlers and turns them into all time best at their positions. He's a great coach, not a miracle worker. He's great at getting guys to play to their strengths and limiting their weaknesses. Example look at Cam Newton with Bill, then Cam this year. That was great coaching, yet he can't turn Cam Newton into Tom Brady. I think they did a brilliant job with Mac Jones, that doesn't take away from Mac Jones talent.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 14, 2022 9:26:05 GMT -5
Colts expected to trade or release Wentz… I wonder what they’ve got planned…
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 14, 2022 10:50:53 GMT -5
Colts expected to trade or release Wentz… I wonder what they’ve got planned… Literally anyone is better.
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Post by rjp313jr on Feb 14, 2022 11:40:59 GMT -5
Kyler Murray and the Cardinals feuding… sucks when you think you have the QB but then realize he’s 6 foot 180lbs, doesn’t work hard and blames others rather than being a leader.
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Post by umassgrad2005 on Feb 17, 2022 13:52:37 GMT -5
RJP what's up with PFF rankings? Like how can they not have Christian Watson and Kyle Phillips ranked? Watson is like an Alec Pierce clone, Pierce is rated 91st. Multiple other places have Phillips in the 90s to 160s. I thought I was going crazy doing their mocks, a deep WR class just vanishes quickly and it's because two guys I'm highly interested in aren't rated to be drafted.
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