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Minor League Catching Depth
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 20, 2022 20:24:24 GMT -5
Wasn't omitting it to hide it - figured that was understood.
It's worth noting that despite those quotes in 2018, he was designated for assignment 7 months later and wasn't claimed off of waivers.
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Post by bosox904 on Feb 21, 2022 20:28:49 GMT -5
I usually try not to be pessimistic, especially after a good season by the Sox, but IF they were our of it at the trade deadline and the Giants are in ot, maybe they can ship the Giants someone like Eovaldi for Patrick Bailey. This of course assumes Eovaldi and Joey Bart are both performing well. The Jay's also have a glut of catching talent. With Moreno they may be willing to move Jansen or Kirk(who's weight may be an issue long term), although trading within the division is entirely different.
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Post by costpet on Feb 22, 2022 8:47:17 GMT -5
Back in the day catchers typically hit 8th and pitchers 9th. There was a reason for that. Neither were expected to hit. We had Sammy White, a very good catcher, but couldn't hit much. Nobody cared. The exception was Yogi Berra. Then Johnny Bench came along and changed all that. We had Fisk. In other words, being able to catch and call a game was far more important than their hit tool. The DH filled the hole of pitchers hitting.
Judging a catcher on how they hit should be a bonus, not his true worth. Ask any pitcher.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Feb 22, 2022 9:57:41 GMT -5
Back in the day catchers typically hit 8th and pitchers 9th. There was a reason for that. Neither were expected to hit. We had Sammy White, a very good catcher, but couldn't hit much. Nobody cared. The exception was Yogi Berra. Then Johnny Bench came along and changed all that. We had Fisk. In other words, being able to catch and call a game was far more important than their hit tool. The DH filled the hole of pitchers hitting. Judging a catcher on how they hit should be a bonus, not his true worth. Ask any pitcher. Games evolve, Fisk came up in 1969, 53 years ago. .200 hitters with 0 power are a thing of the past. Nobody attempts steals anymore, their "great minds" have been replaced by an index card that all the players have in their hats, you simply can't have a black hole in your lineup. |
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Feb 22, 2022 10:06:46 GMT -5
Back in the day catchers typically hit 8th and pitchers 9th. There was a reason for that. Neither were expected to hit. We had Sammy White, a very good catcher, but couldn't hit much. Nobody cared. The exception was Yogi Berra. Then Johnny Bench came along and changed all that. We had Fisk. In other words, being able to catch and call a game was far more important than their hit tool. The DH filled the hole of pitchers hitting. Judging a catcher on how they hit should be a bonus, not his true worth. Ask any pitcher. True, the bar is lower offensively for a catcher, but they still have to be able to hit somewhat or they lose their job. Marc Sullivan could catch and throw, but he couldn't hit his weight so he couldn't hold a full-time job even if his old man was one of the owners. Same thing happened to Sandy Leon. It's different from a pitcher because is a pitcher hits .110 nobody cares. It only matters if he can get batters out. Nobody cares if Randy Johnson can't hit half his weight. With catchers, there is a limit to how bad a hitter he can be, even if he's great defensively. He doesn't have to be a good hitter, but he can't be a virtual automatic out. You mentioned Sammy White. I think you're shortchanging him. He was a decent hitter for about 3 years where he was nearly league average, and pretty good for a catcher. White actually could hit a little and had a little bit of pop, but he didn't walk a lot so his OBP was not very good. You'll notice in his best offensive years, he played more and when his offensive numbers weren't too good his ABs dwindled. So basically when White had an OPS of about 80% of league average or higher he kept a full-time gig. When he couldn't manage that, he wasn't playing regularly anymore. While I'm not sure about the 80% of OPS thing, I do think the principle still plays today with catchers. If they hit close enough to league average (below by 10 - 20% when coupled with good defense) they play regularly, but if their bats slip below that, even with a great glove, then there goes the ABs. |
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Feb 22, 2022 10:42:33 GMT -5
MLB catchers hit .229/.305/.391 last year, a tOPS+ of 91, or 91% of what the league did. For context, MLB hit .244/.317/.411. Interestingly, catchers were close to being the only below-league-average position, with center fielders essentially average at a tOPS+ of 99.
Now here's the funny part - relative to other positions, catchers are actually now expected to carry a relatively SMALLER offensive load than they did in the '50s! In 1953 (Sammy White's best offensive season and lone All-Star season), catchers hit .262/.333/.394 and had a tOPS+ of 98! That's because far less was expected of middle infielders, as shortstop (tOPS+ of 89) and second base (95) were the lightest-hitting positions in the lineup. Context: MLB hit .264/.336/.397. Trend holds for the next few years at least as well.
Gotta say, I did NOT expect that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2022 10:51:46 GMT -5
MLB catchers hit .229/.305/.391 last year, a tOPS+ of 91, or 91% of what the league did. For context, MLB hit .244/.317/.411. Interestingly, catchers were close to being the only below-league-average position, with center fielders essentially average at a tOPS+ of 99. Now here's the funny part - relative to other positions, catchers are actually now expected to carry a relatively SMALLER offensive load than they did in the '50s! In 1953 (Sammy White's best offensive season and lone All-Star season), catchers hit .262/.333/.394 and had a tOPS+ of 98! That's because far less was expected of middle infielders, as shortstop (tOPS+ of 89) and second base (95) were the lightest-hitting positions in the lineup. Context: MLB hit .264/.336/.397. Trend holds for the next few years at least as well. Gotta say, I did NOT expect that. lol, Chris, you are too young to remember the 60s and 70s. I wish I had that as a problem 😀 MLB as a sport has become so specialized that it is in many ways a different game. The stat I like to quote is from the 1984 Red Sox, and the number of complete games: Boyd 10 Hurst 9 Ojeda 8 Nipper 6 Clemens 5 Eckersley 2 Yes, the 1984 Red Sox had 40 CGs! (The 2021 Red Sox 0 CGs, 2020 0 CGs, 2019 1 CG.) My point, as you pointed out, is that what is acceptable and expected in the MLB changes over time. Catchers now simply are not expected to hit while more offense is expected of SS and 2B. |
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Post by costpet on Feb 22, 2022 14:26:59 GMT -5
Prior to the 60's, a starting pitcher was EXPECTED to pitch all nine innings. They didn't have long relief guys, set-up men, or even closers. You start, you finish. Just try not to get shelled in the meantime.
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Post by jimed14 on Feb 22, 2022 14:43:12 GMT -5
I think calling games is far more important than ever before with all the analytics and sequencing information, so I think a catcher needs to do that better far more than he needs to hit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2022 16:30:47 GMT -5
I think calling games is far more important than ever before with all the analytics and sequencing information, so I think a catcher needs to do that better far more than he needs to hit. WilburWood - 1972 - 24 wins -17 losses - 376.2 innings pitched (yes, he was a knuckle ball pitcher) The catcher did not need to know how to call a game then, but just have a big glove to catch the floater. |
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Feb 22, 2022 16:49:33 GMT -5
Mlbtraderumors chat
Red Sox Catchers
3:11 What should the Red Sox do? Extend Vazquez? Plawecki? Both? Trade for a Catcher, who? There nothing in the system to speak of.
Steve Adams
3:13 Vazquez is a perfectly solid 2022 option. I think the bat will bounce back a little bit, and the glove is excellent. There's plenty of quality backstops on the market next winter: Willson Contreras, Austin Barnes, Max Stassi, Omar Narvaez, Tucker Barnhart, Mike Zunino and Vazquez himself.
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Post by freddysthefuture2003 on Feb 22, 2022 16:51:33 GMT -5
I think calling games is far more important than ever before with all the analytics and sequencing information, so I think a catcher needs to do that better far more than he needs to hit. That could go away pretty quickly if the league adopts a system like what we saw Vandy doing this weekend with electronic bracelets |
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Post by Underwater Johnson on Feb 22, 2022 23:01:01 GMT -5
I think calling games is far more important than ever before with all the analytics and sequencing information, so I think a catcher needs to do that better far more than he needs to hit. That could go away pretty quickly if the league adopts a system like what we saw Vandy doing this weekend with electronic bracelets They should use collars, not bracelets. And when they argue with the robot ump, they get zapped!
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