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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 4, 2022 9:25:12 GMT -5
Considering even if he's good for the White Sox and you didn't get under the luxury tax. If they did, fine, big win, but saving money doesn't matter if you're still going to be over and if your ultimate goal is to compete, you got a terrible backup catcher while making the club in front of you better. In a vacuum, I liked it, but only if they got under and made competing secondary to this season. More SSS, McGuire is batting .667 with us, so he must be Ted Williams! Diekman pitched against the Royals who have lost Benintendi and Merrifield, so can’t imagine they were the toughest… There's a reason he got paid to begin with. My main point is, this was just a move to shed salary, but they didn't get to where they needed to be. The risk/reward here isn't worth it I think if you're not getting under the tax and giving a potential plus arm for Chicago. He could give up 8 runs in his next outing and make things moot. I'm not arguing that his 2.0 IP is proof the Red Sox screwed up. Just what they got in return isn't great and if they're trying to catch up to the White Sox and win a WC spot, then they just made that battle harder if Diekman gets a fresh start and runs with it. The 4k and 0bb is very encouraging for him to get started on the right foot and build confidence with his new team. Now, it's probably easier to shed the 4 million now like Fenway said than the off-season, but this trade accomplished very little for the here and now with the possibility of making one of your close rivals this season potentially better.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 4, 2022 9:35:32 GMT -5
Yes it was amazing. We got a backup catcher for several years and offloaded a bad contract. Diekman was a bad signing by Bloom but he corrected his mistake here. I applaud him for that. Considering even if he's good for the White Sox and you didn't get under the luxury tax. If they did, fine, big win, but saving money doesn't matter if you're still going to be over and if your ultimate goal is to compete, you got a terrible backup catcher while making the club in front of you better. In a vacuum, I liked it, but only if they got under and made competing secondary to this season. What about watching Diekman pitch for the Sox this year made you think “wow this is a guy that helps us win!” He’s also not a “terrible” backup catcher, as far as backups go I’ll take a cheap guy with an elite glove with a career .700 OPS against RHP. Gives them an extra 4 mill to throw at another reliever in the off-season that will hopefully not walk 7 guys per 9
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Post by FenwayFanatic on Aug 4, 2022 9:35:52 GMT -5
We need a backup catcher for the next few years and Plawecki is pretty much cooked. Maybe Diekman turns it around in the Windy City but he gave us negative value in Boston. That pen spot can go to someone else. Diekman didn’t do anything for us Darwinzon couldn’t do.
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Post by manfred on Aug 4, 2022 9:48:59 GMT -5
Considering even if he's good for the White Sox and you didn't get under the luxury tax. If they did, fine, big win, but saving money doesn't matter if you're still going to be over and if your ultimate goal is to compete, you got a terrible backup catcher while making the club in front of you better. In a vacuum, I liked it, but only if they got under and made competing secondary to this season. More SSS, McGuire is batting .667 with us, so he must be Ted Williams! Diekman pitched against the Royals who have lost Benintendi and Merrifield, so can’t imagine they were the toughest… Careful! We are about to play those guys. Don’t jinx it.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 4, 2022 11:29:35 GMT -5
We need a backup catcher for the next few years and Plawecki is pretty much cooked. Maybe Diekman turns it around in the Windy City but he gave us negative value in Boston. That pen spot can go to someone else. Diekman didn’t do anything for us Darwinzon couldn’t do. So, this is my issue with what the Sox did. They wouldn't have needed a catcher if they didn't trade Vazquez, or they could still make this move to compliment Vazquez and DFA Plawecki. I would rather Diekman be a bad mop up guy for the Red Sox rather than a contributer to a club who is already in front of you, but making the trade makes sense as a compliment to improve your catching situation this year or as a way to get under the tax. They did neither. Moving forward he might be a good backup catcher, but they have no regular catcher and I feel McGuire is the type of player you can get in the off-season at any time. Again, Diekman can get shelled the next few times out and that's the end of that conversation, but you're risking him helping the team ahead of you when you're kind of competing for a WC3. Hosmer and Pham are improvements, but they're not good players. Hosmer is having an OK season. I'm guessing he's 1B/OF depth and a possible guy you flip for prospects when Casas is ready. You downgraded at catcher. I just don't really get what Bloom is trying for here. It's not like Bloom got a difference maker to help push them over the Yankees, Astros, Mariners, Blue Jays, Rays, Dodgers, or Padres. That's assuming they can climb over four of the Rays, Mariners, Orioles, Blue Jays, Guardians, White Sox to get in. I do want to emphasis in a vacuum I do like the trade, but not in the context of Bloom's other moves (or lack thereof).
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Post by jmei on Aug 4, 2022 12:31:10 GMT -5
If you think a guy on the major league roster is bad enough that you want to trade him (addition by subtraction), you should frankly want to trade him to a rival.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Aug 4, 2022 12:53:25 GMT -5
People keep saying we're over the luxury tax. Wasn't Bloom's quote that we were "trending" towards being over, meaning that we would be over if some people met their incentive thresholds?
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Post by incandenza on Aug 4, 2022 13:32:59 GMT -5
I’d give Bloom a C. I would upgrade to a B if they re-sign Bogaerts and Eovaldi, and downgrade to a D if they lose one or both after QOs. On the one hand, getting under the cap is pretty inexplicable and a borderline fireable offense if we only get fourth round picks for Bogaerts and Eovaldi. Its pretty clear we aren’t going to compete with some of these behemoth rosters of other teams, so why are we over the cap? It’s even more outrageous when you consider the fact we are barely over the cap and could’ve easily got under it. On the other hand, the Diekman deal was amazing, the Vázquez deal was good value, and he got Hosmer and Pham basically for free. Was the Diekman deal amazing? You're behind the White Sox and so far he's 2.0 IP with 4k and 0 walks. I understand major SSS, but if he's good for them, and you're trying for WC3, then you just improved a team you're competing against. If you really understood SSS you wouldn't have even mentioned what he's done in 2 IP. Well is he a bad mop up guy or is he a "contributor"? Are you just assuming Diekman is a different pitcher on another team?
Look, he might pitch 15-20 innings the rest of the season. Whatever he does in those innings should change your view of his ability very little; it's still going to be a tiny sample size.
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Post by sarasoxer on Aug 4, 2022 13:33:06 GMT -5
Wow! They are stocked. I'm afraid that it will be some time before we compete with those guys. Next April isn't that long Were that I felt that way....We'll see.
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Post by notstarboard on Aug 4, 2022 13:37:40 GMT -5
People keep saying we're over the luxury tax. Wasn't Bloom's quote that we were "trending" towards being over, meaning that we would be over if some people met their incentive thresholds? I would love to believe this, but do you have any more info? I know things like Spotrac and RedSoxPayroll on Twitter are just decent estimates of the payroll, but I haven't seen anything saying we're closer to the line than like $6-7 million, and I don't know of enough incentives in contracts to make things interesting.
If we can sneak under the LT threshold that would make me feel a lot better about decisions made this season.
Edit: I think Sale has a couple million dollars worth of incentives he won't hit. Not sure about anyone else. Hill has $3 million in IP incentives, most of which he probably won't hit, but I also don't think any of these unofficial salary spreadsheets are pricing this in in the first place... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edit 2: Maybe someone will pick up Jackie and save us a couple million
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 4, 2022 14:03:59 GMT -5
Is Jake Diekman somebody you want pitching in the 6th inning of a close playoff game? That’s a pretty strong no from me, and I liked the signing. Control is at a career worst outside of his shortened 2017 and he gives up hard contact. Glad to get the money off the books next year and glad they brought in a strong defensive catcher to backup
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 4, 2022 16:17:06 GMT -5
I'd like to see them take a flyer on Lamet and see if they can fix him. The arm is money he's just never healthy.
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Post by taiwansox on Aug 4, 2022 16:18:33 GMT -5
More SSS, McGuire is batting .667 with us, so he must be Ted Williams! Diekman pitched against the Royals who have lost Benintendi and Merrifield, so can’t imagine they were the toughest… Careful! We are about to play those guys. Don’t jinx it. We’ve lost to teams like the Cubs already, hard to jinx us more haha
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Post by redsoxfan2 on Aug 4, 2022 16:19:10 GMT -5
Was the Diekman deal amazing? You're behind the White Sox and so far he's 2.0 IP with 4k and 0 walks. I understand major SSS, but if he's good for them, and you're trying for WC3, then you just improved a team you're competing against. If you really understood SSS you wouldn't have even mentioned what he's done in 2 IP. Well is he a bad mop up guy or is he a "contributor"? Are you just assuming Diekman is a different pitcher on another team?
Look, he might pitch 15-20 innings the rest of the season. Whatever he does in those innings should change your view of his ability very little; it's still going to be a tiny sample size.
Well, he's contributed positively in 2 games thus far against a team you're chasing. If that trend continues for the next 18-20 innings, it's a bad trade if your ultimate goal was to compete for this year. Again, like it if you kept Vazquez or aimed to get under the tax. On top of the super minuscule sample size, do they have depth better than Diekman if another reliever gets hurt? The White Sox clearly see something they like about him; otherwise they wouldn't have taken the gamble. I'm sure there were cheaper arms via the waiver wire if they just needed bodies. I would take Diekman over Brasier, Davis (unless he's starting apparently), and possibly Sawamura right now. If you want to extrapolate a little further out, he had a terrible April and July. He had a pretty decent May and a really good June. July was the only month he really struggled with walks. His last 30 days he has an ERA over 6. His last 15 days includes 6.2 IP with 1 run scored against.
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TearsIn04
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Everybody knows Nelson de la Rosa, but who is Karim Garcia?
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Post by TearsIn04 on Aug 4, 2022 19:43:35 GMT -5
People keep saying we're over the luxury tax. Wasn't Bloom's quote that we were "trending" towards being over, meaning that we would be over if some people met their incentive thresholds? I would love to believe this, but do you have any more info? I know things like Spotrac and RedSoxPayroll on Twitter are just decent estimates of the payroll, but I haven't seen anything saying we're closer to the line than like $6-7 million, and I don't know of enough incentives in contracts to make things interesting.
If we can sneak under the LT threshold that would make me feel a lot better about decisions made this season.
Edit: I think Sale has a couple million dollars worth of incentives he won't hit. Not sure about anyone else. Hill has $3 million in IP incentives, most of which he probably won't hit, but I also don't think any of these unofficial salary spreadsheets are pricing this in in the first place... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edit 2: Maybe someone will pick up Jackie and save us a couple million If we don't get under and it's due to the JBJ acquisition and the failure to unload money at the deadline, that would be quite a screw-up. It wouldn't be as bad as D-Dom's miscalculation in 2018, which cost us a first-round pick. But I have to think it would be a checkmark in the "yes" column in JWH's head if he gets to the point in the next couple of years where he's considering moving on from Bloom.
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Post by notstarboard on Aug 4, 2022 20:54:03 GMT -5
I would love to believe this, but do you have any more info? I know things like Spotrac and RedSoxPayroll on Twitter are just decent estimates of the payroll, but I haven't seen anything saying we're closer to the line than like $6-7 million, and I don't know of enough incentives in contracts to make things interesting.
If we can sneak under the LT threshold that would make me feel a lot better about decisions made this season.
Edit: I think Sale has a couple million dollars worth of incentives he won't hit. Not sure about anyone else. Hill has $3 million in IP incentives, most of which he probably won't hit, but I also don't think any of these unofficial salary spreadsheets are pricing this in in the first place... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edit 2: Maybe someone will pick up Jackie and save us a couple million If we don't get under and it's due to the JBJ acquisition and the failure to unload money at the deadline, that would be quite a screw-up. It wouldn't be as bad as D-Dom's miscalculation in 2018, which cost us a first-round pick. But I have to think it would be a checkmark in the "yes" column in JWH's head if he gets to the point in the next couple of years where he's considering moving on from Bloom. I agree. I see not wanting punt on this season, but the downsides of not dipping under seem to outweigh the benefits of holding onto a guy like JDM in my mind. I keep coming back to three possibilities on this - 1) Bloom messed up (by finishing over the tax in a down year where missing the playoffs is likely; can point to any number of things that got us here), 2) We somehow finish under the tax, or 3) Bloom intends to make a competitive play for Bogaerts and/or Eovaldi this winter, so the downsides of paying the tax this year are comparatively minor to the upsides of keeping JDM down the stretch. I just can't see Bloom QOing X, Nate, and possibly JD and letting them walk after going over the CBT threshold by a few million dollars and willingly taking 2-3 4th rounders that could have been 2nd rounders in addition to the other drawbacks. The more time has passed this year, the more I think they're going to actually try to bring Bogie back.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 5, 2022 11:23:33 GMT -5
A couple things about going over the CBT: -It made a ton of sense to do that this year, in a year before a bunch of dead money and expiring contracts come off the books; it will be child's play to get under the limit next year or the year after if they want. So I don't think it's *that* big a screw up to not get under at the deadline; the worst effect is lowering the draft compensation for Bogaerts and Eovaldi. -That being the case, why not go firmly over? They were so clearly one guy short on the major league roster; just sign another outfielder - Pham or whomever - to a 1/10 deal, if for nothing else as insurance in the case of injury or underperformance (which, in the event, befell either two or all three of their starting outfielders, depending on your Verdugo take).
ADD: Actually it wouldn't surprise if they either don't offer Eovaldi the QO or do re-sign Bogaerts, so that would take care of the draft compensation issue since there wouldn't be any anyway.
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Post by manfred on Aug 5, 2022 11:41:27 GMT -5
A couple things about going over the CBT: -It made a ton of sense to do that this year, in a year before a bunch of dead money and expiring contracts come off the books; it will be child's play to get under the limit next year or the year after if they want. So I don't think it's *that* big a screw up to not get under at the deadline; the worst effect is lowering the draft compensation for Bogaerts and Eovaldi. -That being the case, why not go firmly over? They were so clearly one guy short on the major league roster; just sign another outfielder - Pham or whomever - to a 1/10 deal, if for nothing else as insurance in the case of injury or underperformance (which, in the event, befell either two or all three of their starting outfielders, depending on your Verdugo take).
ADD: Actually it wouldn't surprise if they either don't offer Eovaldi the QO or do re-sign Bogaerts, so that would take care of the draft compensation issue since there wouldn't be any anyway.
Looking at where they are this year, would it be better to be under or a tick over? Is there an advantage to being just slightly over? Is there an advantage to getting under? Would it have been that hard to dump salary? Would it realistically reduce their chances this year? The *best* one can say for it is it is a mistake that can ge overcome (like Diekman!). But one cannot defend it as well done.
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Post by soxfansince67 on Aug 5, 2022 12:39:34 GMT -5
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Post by soxfanatic on Aug 5, 2022 13:57:00 GMT -5
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Post by wcsoxfan on Aug 5, 2022 14:06:31 GMT -5
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Addam603
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Post by Addam603 on Aug 6, 2022 14:44:30 GMT -5
So the final in and out ended up being:
Out: Vazquez (rental) Diekman (Chicago paid full salary) Groome (#16 prospect pre-August ranking) PTBNL
In: Hosmer (San Diego paid full salary) Pham (potentially controlled through 2023) McGuire (controlled through 2025) Valdez (#16 prospect) Abreu (#26 prospect) Ferguson (#57 prospect) Rosier (#56 prospect)
There was no massive trade or sell off that people wanted, but that’s a successful set of trades. The Major League team improved and so did the farm. Could they have done better? Of course. But they improved and that’s the name of the game.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on Aug 6, 2022 15:45:56 GMT -5
So the final in and out ended up being: Out: Vazquez (rental) Diekman (Chicago paid full salary) Groome (#16 prospect pre-August ranking) PTBNL In: Hosmer (San Diego paid full salary) Pham (potentially controlled through 2023) McGuire (controlled through 2025) Valdez (#16 prospect) Abreu (#26 prospect) Ferguson (#57 prospect) Rosier (#56 prospect) There was no massive trade or sell off that people wanted, but that’s a successful set of trades. The Major League team improved and so did the farm. Could they have done better? Of course. But they improved and that’s the name of the game. I believe we got a ptbnl in the Diekman deal too
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Post by bosoxnation on Aug 6, 2022 16:09:23 GMT -5
So the final in and out ended up being: Out: Vazquez (rental) Diekman (Chicago paid full salary) Groome (#16 prospect pre-August ranking) PTBNL In: Hosmer (San Diego paid full salary) Pham (potentially controlled through 2023) McGuire (controlled through 2025) Valdez (#16 prospect) Abreu (#26 prospect) Ferguson (#57 prospect) Rosier (#56 prospect) There was no massive trade or sell off that people wanted, but that’s a successful set of trades. The Major League team improved and so did the farm. Could they have done better? Of course. But they improved and that’s the name of the game. Im really not sure we could have done that much better while trying to make the playoffs. Buy/Sell is the way to go!
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Post by jmei on Aug 6, 2022 18:01:40 GMT -5
So the final in and out ended up being: Out: Vazquez (rental) Diekman (Chicago paid full salary) Groome (#16 prospect pre-August ranking) PTBNL In: Hosmer (San Diego paid full salary) Pham (potentially controlled through 2023) McGuire (controlled through 2025) Valdez (#16 prospect) Abreu (#26 prospect) Ferguson (#57 prospect) Rosier (#56 prospect) There was no massive trade or sell off that people wanted, but that’s a successful set of trades. The Major League team improved and so did the farm. Could they have done better? Of course. But they improved and that’s the name of the game. I believe we got a ptbnl in the Diekman deal too …balanced by the PTBNL we lost in the Pham trade.
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