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8/16-8/18 Red Sox @ Pirates Series Thread
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Aug 17, 2022 11:27:32 GMT -5
The team really needs Barnes to be 2021 first half Barnes.
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Post by GyIantosca on Aug 17, 2022 11:52:19 GMT -5
Off topic the MFY traded Montgomery to get a bullpen piece. That’s funny he is always a pain in the rear when he pitches against us.
Thank you Mr Cashman the gift the keeps giving.
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Post by kman22 on Aug 17, 2022 11:59:03 GMT -5
Off topic the MFY traded Montgomery to get a bullpen piece. That’s funny he is always a pain in the rear when he pitches against us. Thank you Mr Cashman the gift the keeps giving. Traded for a defensive CF, but still
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Post by benzinger on Aug 17, 2022 12:13:44 GMT -5
Off topic the MFY traded Montgomery to get a bullpen piece. That’s funny he is always a pain in the rear when he pitches against us. Thank you Mr Cashman the gift the keeps giving. NOBODY(Including several Yankees fans I know) understood that trade. They all hated it and considered Montgomery to be a very solid #4 starter(which he is). They actually thought there was more involved here and potentially an issue between him and Boone(or something else behind the scenes to explain it).
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Post by incandenza on Aug 17, 2022 12:20:26 GMT -5
The other weird thing about the Montgomery trade is that he's controlled for 2023 as well, at maybe $9-10 million in arb salary. What team doesn't want that sort of depth in their starting rotation? Now their 2023 projected rotation is:
Cole Cortes Montas Severino (if they pick up the $15 million option) German
Severino is never healthy, and Montas is not a proven commodity in Yankee Stadium. Heck, Montgomery has slightly better FIP projections than him. Cortes seems to be coming back to earth a bit. And then one more injury and that whole rotation starts to look a little dicey. Meanwhile, the free agent market has a lot of upside at the top end, but also a ton of health risk with those same players.
I dunno, I guess this is just another long-winded way of saying that you can never have enough starting pitching and if I were a GM for a competitive team I would just about never trade it away.
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Post by taiwansox on Aug 17, 2022 12:23:48 GMT -5
The other weird thing about the Montgomery trade is that he's controlled for 2023 as well, at maybe $9-10 million in arb salary. What team doesn't want that sort of depth in their starting rotation? Now their 2023 projected rotation is:
Cole Cortes Montas Severino (if they pick up the $15 million option) German
Severino is never healthy, and Montas is not a proven commodity in Yankee Stadium. Heck, Montgomery has slightly better FIP projections than him. Cortes seems to be coming back to earth a bit. And then one more injury and that whole rotation starts to look a little dicey. Meanwhile, the free agent market has a lot of upside at the top end, but also a ton of health risk with those same players.
I dunno, I guess this is just another long-winded way of saying that you can never have enough starting pitching and if I were a GM for a competitive team I would just about never trade it away.
Also underrated is that they traded away JP Sears (Montas trade) who had a few nice spot starts for them. I think they traded away some starting depth for Effross
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Post by alexcorahomevideo on Aug 17, 2022 13:01:55 GMT -5
They really need a sweep
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Post by seamus on Aug 17, 2022 13:32:58 GMT -5
The other weird thing about the Montgomery trade is that he's controlled for 2023 as well, at maybe $9-10 million in arb salary. What team doesn't want that sort of depth in their starting rotation? Now their 2023 projected rotation is:
Cole Cortes Montas Severino (if they pick up the $15 million option) German
Severino is never healthy, and Montas is not a proven commodity in Yankee Stadium. Heck, Montgomery has slightly better FIP projections than him. Cortes seems to be coming back to earth a bit. And then one more injury and that whole rotation starts to look a little dicey. Meanwhile, the free agent market has a lot of upside at the top end, but also a ton of health risk with those same players.
I dunno, I guess this is just another long-winded way of saying that you can never have enough starting pitching and if I were a GM for a competitive team I would just about never trade it away.
I think I understand the Bader/Montgomery trade and would like it if I was a Yankees fan. As a back-end starter Montgomery probably wasn't going to be a super important part of the playoff puzzle, and they probably figured they didn't need him to win the division. Bader provides better value this season given how cooked Hicks looks in center field. Moving forward, Bader's got another year at only $5.2m going into an offseason without a ton of great CF options in free agency. They also believe in their pitching development, and rightly so as far as I can tell, and probably feel better about their ability to find a back-end starter than an above-average center fielder, especially with the risk that Judge goes elsewhere and they need to replace the whole outfield. I dunno, I get the criticism and I do generally hold that trading away starting pitching isn't a great plan, but I think Cashman did all right on this one both for the Yankees' odds this October and for their prospects next year.
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Post by incandenza on Aug 17, 2022 13:51:24 GMT -5
The other weird thing about the Montgomery trade is that he's controlled for 2023 as well, at maybe $9-10 million in arb salary. What team doesn't want that sort of depth in their starting rotation? Now their 2023 projected rotation is:
Cole Cortes Montas Severino (if they pick up the $15 million option) German
Severino is never healthy, and Montas is not a proven commodity in Yankee Stadium. Heck, Montgomery has slightly better FIP projections than him. Cortes seems to be coming back to earth a bit. And then one more injury and that whole rotation starts to look a little dicey. Meanwhile, the free agent market has a lot of upside at the top end, but also a ton of health risk with those same players.
I dunno, I guess this is just another long-winded way of saying that you can never have enough starting pitching and if I were a GM for a competitive team I would just about never trade it away.
I think I understand the Bader/Montgomery trade and would like it if I was a Yankees fan. As a back-end starter Montgomery probably wasn't going to be a super important part of the playoff puzzle, and they probably figured they didn't need him to win the division. Bader provides better value this season given how cooked Hicks looks in center field. Moving forward, Bader's got another year at only $5.2m going into an offseason without a ton of great CF options in free agency. They also believe in their pitching development, and rightly so as far as I can tell, and probably feel better about their ability to find a back-end starter than an above-average center fielder, especially with the risk that Judge goes elsewhere and they need to replace the whole outfield. I dunno, I get the criticism and I do generally hold that trading away starting pitching isn't a great plan, but I think Cashman did all right on this one both for the Yankees' odds this October and for their prospects next year. I think this is exactly Cashman's logic, and I think it works right up to the point that a Yankees starter gets injured. Which will probably happen, as it does for most teams.
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Post by julyanmorley on Aug 17, 2022 13:54:47 GMT -5
Update on a previous argument on this board: Seiya Suzuki is sitting at 0.4 WAR. Cubs have paid $27 million for him and have 4/73 million left.
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Post by ematz1423 on Aug 17, 2022 14:49:07 GMT -5
Update on a previous argument on this board: Seiya Suzuki is sitting at 0.4 WAR. Cubs have paid $27 million for him and have 4/73 million left. Suzuki is still just 28 next season and I think he'll do better next year and in the coming seasons, but for the Cubs sake they sure better hope he does. I was certainly a member of the get Suzuki to the Sox club but it's looking like they dodged a bullet on that one.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Aug 17, 2022 15:13:03 GMT -5
Update on a previous argument on this board: Seiya Suzuki is sitting at 0.4 WAR. Cubs have paid $27 million for him and have 4/73 million left. Suzuki is still just 28 next season and I think he'll do better next year and in the coming seasons, but for the Cubs sake they sure better hope he does. I was certainly a member of the get Suzuki to the Sox club but it's looking like they dodged a bullet on that one. In retrospect, which is always 20/20, Bloom did not deal with the lack of a RF starter and JBJ was it by default. Had he signed Pham, whose swing seems to fit well in Boston, and played him in LF, then Verdugo would have handled RF all year. This would have helped put the Red Sox several games higher in the standings. IMO, it would have been enough to put the Red Sox in the top three of the wildcard. The Red Sox would have had larger leads, which in turn would have caused their opponents to used less quality relievers and making it hard for the other teams to come back (fewer 9th inning losses).
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Post by ematz1423 on Aug 17, 2022 15:20:16 GMT -5
Suzuki is still just 28 next season and I think he'll do better next year and in the coming seasons, but for the Cubs sake they sure better hope he does. I was certainly a member of the get Suzuki to the Sox club but it's looking like they dodged a bullet on that one. In retrospect, which is always 20/20, Bloom did not deal with the lack of a RF starter and JBJ was it by default. Had he signed Pham, whose swing seems to fit well in Boston, and played him in LF, then Verdugo would have handled RF all year. This would have helped put the Red Sox several games higher in the standings. IMO, it would have been enough to put the Red Sox in the top three of the wildcard. The Red Sox would have had larger leads, which in turn would have caused their opponents to used less quality relievers and making it hard for the other teams to come back (fewer 9th inning losses). Glancing very quickly at last years FA OFers and the deals they received, the only ones that seemingly would have helped the Sox this season are Marte, Canha and Pham as you point out. Last years FA class of OF is looking pretty ugly through year 1 of their deals. The only one of those looking back that I'm scratching my head at not getting in the offseason is Pham. So I guess in a sense Bloom kind of made the right choice not allocating bucks to a free agent OF but I still have to knock him for not doing more to bring in a viable RHH OF.
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redsox04071318champs
Veteran
Always hoping to make my handle even longer...
Posts: 15,685
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Post by redsox04071318champs on Aug 17, 2022 15:33:06 GMT -5
The other weird thing about the Montgomery trade is that he's controlled for 2023 as well, at maybe $9-10 million in arb salary. What team doesn't want that sort of depth in their starting rotation? Now their 2023 projected rotation is: Cole Cortes Montas Severino (if they pick up the $15 million option) German Severino is never healthy, and Montas is not a proven commodity in Yankee Stadium. Heck, Montgomery has slightly better FIP projections than him. Cortes seems to be coming back to earth a bit. And then one more injury and that whole rotation starts to look a little dicey. Meanwhile, the free agent market has a lot of upside at the top end, but also a ton of health risk with those same players.
I dunno, I guess this is just another long-winded way of saying that you can never have enough starting pitching and if I were a GM for a competitive team I would just about never trade it away.
Yup, so don't trade Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena
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Post by taiwansox on Aug 17, 2022 15:38:23 GMT -5
The other weird thing about the Montgomery trade is that he's controlled for 2023 as well, at maybe $9-10 million in arb salary. What team doesn't want that sort of depth in their starting rotation? Now their 2023 projected rotation is: Cole Cortes Montas Severino (if they pick up the $15 million option) German Severino is never healthy, and Montas is not a proven commodity in Yankee Stadium. Heck, Montgomery has slightly better FIP projections than him. Cortes seems to be coming back to earth a bit. And then one more injury and that whole rotation starts to look a little dicey. Meanwhile, the free agent market has a lot of upside at the top end, but also a ton of health risk with those same players.
I dunno, I guess this is just another long-winded way of saying that you can never have enough starting pitching and if I were a GM for a competitive team I would just about never trade it away.
Yup, so don't trade Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena Otherwise you’ll end up with Kevin Jarvis starting for you by season end 😂
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Post by incandenza on Aug 17, 2022 15:38:32 GMT -5
In retrospect, which is always 20/20, Bloom did not deal with the lack of a RF starter and JBJ was it by default. Had he signed Pham, whose swing seems to fit well in Boston, and played him in LF, then Verdugo would have handled RF all year. This would have helped put the Red Sox several games higher in the standings. IMO, it would have been enough to put the Red Sox in the top three of the wildcard. The Red Sox would have had larger leads, which in turn would have caused their opponents to used less quality relievers and making it hard for the other teams to come back (fewer 9th inning losses). Glancing very quickly at last years FA OFers and the deals they received, the only ones that seemingly would have helped the Sox this season are Marte, Canha and Pham as you point out. Last years FA class of OF is looking pretty ugly through year 1 of their deals. The only one of those looking back that I'm scratching my head at not getting in the offseason is Pham. So I guess in a sense Bloom kind of made the right choice not allocating bucks to a free agent OF but I still have to knock him for not doing more to bring in a viable RHH OF. Well why didn't he get Pham then? This isn't hindsight - I thought he should and would sign Pham at the point in the offseason when he was basically the last man standing in the free agent outfielder department. It's been suggested that Pham wouldn'y sign on to be part of a platoon but Soxfansince1971's idea seems reasonable - Pham as a starter in left, Verdugo in right, Kiké in center, JBJ as backup. With Kiké's injury that even would have worked out pretty well for the team.
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Post by Soxfansince1971 on Aug 17, 2022 15:47:32 GMT -5
Glancing very quickly at last years FA OFers and the deals they received, the only ones that seemingly would have helped the Sox this season are Marte, Canha and Pham as you point out. Last years FA class of OF is looking pretty ugly through year 1 of their deals. The only one of those looking back that I'm scratching my head at not getting in the offseason is Pham. So I guess in a sense Bloom kind of made the right choice not allocating bucks to a free agent OF but I still have to knock him for not doing more to bring in a viable RHH OF. Well why didn't he get Pham then? This isn't hindsight - I thought he should and would sign Pham at the point in the offseason when he was basically the last man standing in the free agent outfielder department. It's been suggested that Pham wouldn'y sign on to be part of a platoon but Soxfansince1971's idea seems reasonable - Pham as a starter in left, Verdugo in right, Kiké in center, JBJ as backup. With Kiké's injury that even would have worked out pretty well for the team. I also wanted Pham in the offseason! The only reason I can think of that Bloom did not sign Pham is that they wanted Verdugo defensively in LF and a stronger defensive outfielder in RF. This plan was flawed because (we all knew JBJ can no longer hit). Result: Bloom should have signed Pham and a closer.
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Post by julyanmorley on Aug 17, 2022 16:05:49 GMT -5
Didn't Pham say they were in serious negotiations during the offseason?
I genuinely have no idea how Chaim could think 1/5 or whatever was a good deal, but walk away and do nothing at 1/7.5. It is hard for me to imagine the organizational incentives that would lead Chaim to be that sensitive to the team's spending once they are over the luxury tax.
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Post by jphelan on Aug 17, 2022 16:08:35 GMT -5
I think Bradfo mentioned on his show that Pham said he was talking with the Red Sox - I think the weirdness of the offseason with the lock out affected things.
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jimoh
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Posts: 3,989
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Post by jimoh on Aug 17, 2022 16:35:04 GMT -5
Update on a previous argument on this board: Seiya Suzuki is sitting at 0.4 WAR. Cubs have paid $27 million for him and have 4/73 million left. Refsynder 0.6fWAR
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Post by incandenza on Aug 17, 2022 16:50:47 GMT -5
And meanwhile... this had really snuck up on me, but Alex "Negative WAR" Verdugo is now up to 1.2 fWAR and projected to finish just about at his customary 2 WAR for the season. He has a 98 wRC+ despite still suffering from a bad wOBA/xwOBA split, and cue ericmvan to point out that his 1.14 WPA is second best on the team after Devers, and third-place Refsnyder (!) isn't even close at 0.36.
(Have to say, Xander's 0.20 WPA despite a 131 wRC+ is pretty conspicuous. Compare Tommy Pham's 0.18... in 13 games. That's with a nearly identical 130 wRC+.
Xander's WPA and clutch numbers have been underwhelming the last three seasons. I get the sense it's something Bloom looks at, too. Or at least they're proxies for whatever numbers Bloom looks at.)
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 17, 2022 18:06:28 GMT -5
Conan Lamentations needed from here on out !!
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Post by jerrygarciaparra on Aug 17, 2022 18:14:07 GMT -5
Hill of Beans needs to up his game tonight.
Add: bullpen this guy today.
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cdj
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Posts: 14,195
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Post by cdj on Aug 17, 2022 18:14:34 GMT -5
Rich Hill is actually not good
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Post by taiwansox on Aug 17, 2022 18:14:39 GMT -5
Hill has nothing left at this point
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