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2023 National Rankings (in season)
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 17, 2023 14:30:00 GMT -5
Law heavily weights the lack of pitching in the system against the Sox in his overall grade, or at least his perception of it. I don't agree with it but if I squint I can see where he's coming from a little. let’s say for the sake of discussion Law is correct in regards to the org’s pitching …with so many high upside position players (in his eyes) why does not having a ton of upper levels pitching matter *that* much in his rankings? You can trade them for established pitching. Our system has depth too, it’s not like it’s top heavy. Just a bizarre rationale. Like would he rather have an org that has 2 top 50 prospects if one of them is a pitcher? I think that would be quite dumb tbh I think "an imbalanced system isn't an issue because we can just trade from a surplus to fill areas of weakness" is a sentiment that makes a ton of sense for the Red Sox to say internally and to feel good about their system with. That being said, it is still a hypothetical so I think it's perfectly valid for Law or Callis or whoever to not want to take that into account when ranking the farm system, because that should just be a ranking of what they have at that present moment. It's a snapshot in time as much as anything. I certainly don't agree with Law's assessment of the depth of the system, but I can also see why he wouldn't rationalize the composition in the same way we would.
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Post by remmartin34 on Aug 17, 2023 14:38:06 GMT -5
Law heavily weights the lack of pitching in the system against the Sox in his overall grade, or at least his perception of it. I don't agree with it but if I squint I can see where he's coming from a little. let’s say for the sake of discussion Law is correct in regards to the org’s pitching …with so many high upside position players (in his eyes) why does not having a ton of upper levels pitching matter *that* much in his rankings? You can trade them for established pitching. Our system has depth too, it’s not like it’s top heavy. Just a bizarre rationale. Like would he rather have an org that has 2 top 50 prospects if one of them is a pitcher? I think that would be quite dumb tbh I agree. And it's the same with MLB Pipeline. I do get where they're coming from with that critique, to an extent. But 16th? Or 20th? Ehhh too each their own. I love where the Sox/Bloom are at in terms of the trajectory of this farm system. That being said... I do think that a shift back to drafting a few pitchers in the earlier rounds (2nd-6th) might be worth considering though. The system is deep/strong now. You can afford to take some risks in the earlier rounds. Not saying to draft a prep pitcher at #20 in the 1st round next year or anything
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 17, 2023 14:50:20 GMT -5
let’s say for the sake of discussion Law is correct in regards to the org’s pitching …with so many high upside position players (in his eyes) why does not having a ton of upper levels pitching matter *that* much in his rankings? You can trade them for established pitching. Our system has depth too, it’s not like it’s top heavy. Just a bizarre rationale. Like would he rather have an org that has 2 top 50 prospects if one of them is a pitcher? I think that would be quite dumb tbh I agree. And it's the same with MLB Pipeline. I do get where they're coming from with that critique, to an extent. But 16th? Or 20th? Ehhh too each their own. I love where the Sox/Bloom are at in terms of the trajectory of this farm system. That being said... I do think that a shift back to drafting a few pitchers in the earlier rounds (2nd-6th) might be worth considering though. The system is deep/strong now. You can afford to take some risks in the earlier rounds. Not saying to draft a prep pitcher at #20 in the 1st round next year or anything 42% of the picks in that range from the 2020 draft and on have been pitchers, so it's been disproportionately hitters in those rounds (though you could stretch an argument that, since you're aiming to draft starters first and foremost, the proportions are a bit more even), but it's not like they've avoided it entirely, it's been relatively even. So unless you think they should be drafting mostly pitchers, I would say "drafting a few" is exactly what they're already doing.
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Post by remmartin34 on Aug 17, 2023 15:04:52 GMT -5
I agree. And it's the same with MLB Pipeline. I do get where they're coming from with that critique, to an extent. But 16th? Or 20th? Ehhh too each their own. I love where the Sox/Bloom are at in terms of the trajectory of this farm system. That being said... I do think that a shift back to drafting a few pitchers in the earlier rounds (2nd-6th) might be worth considering though. The system is deep/strong now. You can afford to take some risks in the earlier rounds. Not saying to draft a prep pitcher at #20 in the 1st round next year or anything 42% of the picks in that range from the 2020 draft and on have been pitchers, so it's been disproportionately hitters in those rounds (though you could stretch an argument that, since you're aiming to draft starters first and foremost, the proportions are a bit more even), but it's not like they've avoided it entirely, it's been relatively even. So unless you think they should be drafting mostly pitchers, I would say "drafting a few" is exactly what they're already doing. Hahaha ok then I'll narrow it down further..... Take at least ONE PITCHER with one of your first three draft selections next year. Which they have done 0 times between 2021-2023.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 17, 2023 15:11:50 GMT -5
42% of the picks in that range from the 2020 draft and on have been pitchers, so it's been disproportionately hitters in those rounds (though you could stretch an argument that, since you're aiming to draft starters first and foremost, the proportions are a bit more even), but it's not like they've avoided it entirely, it's been relatively even. So unless you think they should be drafting mostly pitchers, I would say "drafting a few" is exactly what they're already doing. Hahaha ok then I'll narrow it down further..... Take at least ONE PITCHER with one of your first three draft selections next year. Which they have done 0 times between 2021-2023. I would say that that's relatively cherrypicked (Dalton Rogers wasn't one of their first three selections but was a third round pick so that doesn't count?) and I would never want a draft strategy to be so put into a limited box like that, but if you really want to see it, that can certainly be your preference.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Aug 17, 2023 15:12:30 GMT -5
42% of the picks in that range from the 2020 draft and on have been pitchers, so it's been disproportionately hitters in those rounds (though you could stretch an argument that, since you're aiming to draft starters first and foremost, the proportions are a bit more even), but it's not like they've avoided it entirely, it's been relatively even. So unless you think they should be drafting mostly pitchers, I would say "drafting a few" is exactly what they're already doing. Hahaha ok then I'll narrow it down further..... Take at least ONE PITCHER with one of your first three draft selections next year. Which they have done 0 times between 2021-2023. Well personally I'd prefer they just listen to their board and go with guys who they have ranked highest that they can get signed. If that's a P then go for it, if that's another HS SS then go for it. Don't get me wrong I'd love them to add a high potential pitcher early in the draft but even if they took a pitcher in each of the first three rounds next year there's no guarantee they amount to anything. In all honesty I have to wonder if the lack of impact pitching prospects for however long it's been is more due to their ability to develop pitchers than it is who they're picking.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 17, 2023 15:17:12 GMT -5
Hahaha ok then I'll narrow it down further..... Take at least ONE PITCHER with one of your first three draft selections next year. Which they have done 0 times between 2021-2023. Well personally I'd prefer they just listen to their board and go with guys who they have ranked highest that they can get signed. If that's a P then go for it, if that's another HS SS then go for it. Don't get me wrong I'd love them to add a high potential pitcher early in the draft but even if they took a pitcher in each of the first three rounds next year there's no guarantee they amount to anything. In all honesty I have to wonder if the lack of impact pitching prospects for however long it's been is more due to their ability to develop pitchers than it is who they're picking. I would also imagine that their pitching acquisitions in international free agency, both A) the sheer quantity they have signed in recent years and B) the relative success they've seemed to have developing them vs. domestic pitchers (that's purely anecdotal) probably affects how they value pitching in the draft, as well. Not that they'd pass up on a guy they really liked for it by any means, but my perception is that they lean relatively heavy on the IFA route for pitching. I am likely reading too far into it.
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ematz1423
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Post by ematz1423 on Aug 17, 2023 15:20:32 GMT -5
Well personally I'd prefer they just listen to their board and go with guys who they have ranked highest that they can get signed. If that's a P then go for it, if that's another HS SS then go for it. Don't get me wrong I'd love them to add a high potential pitcher early in the draft but even if they took a pitcher in each of the first three rounds next year there's no guarantee they amount to anything. In all honesty I have to wonder if the lack of impact pitching prospects for however long it's been is more due to their ability to develop pitchers than it is who they're picking. I would also imagine that their pitching acquisitions in international free agency, both A) the sheer quantity they have signed in recent years and B) the relative success they've seemed to have developing them vs. domestic pitchers (that's purely anecdotal) probably affects how they value pitching in the draft, as well. Not that they'd pass up on a guy they really liked for it by any means, but my perception is that they lean relatively heavy on the IFA route for pitching. I am likely reading too far into it. Perhaps there is something to that but taking a quick glance at their international signings the past few years most of their large $ bonus babies have been position players far as I can tell.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 17, 2023 15:37:50 GMT -5
42% of the picks in that range from the 2020 draft and on have been pitchers, so it's been disproportionately hitters in those rounds (though you could stretch an argument that, since you're aiming to draft starters first and foremost, the proportions are a bit more even), but it's not like they've avoided it entirely, it's been relatively even. So unless you think they should be drafting mostly pitchers, I would say "drafting a few" is exactly what they're already doing. In four years this front office hasn't drafted a pitcher in the first 3 rounds. Not once. Whether you agree with their approach or not it's hard to claim it's "relatively even". In the parameters given, rounds 2-6, it has been relatively even. If you'd like to make a different argument you're certainly welcome to, but that's just manipulating the discussion into something else entirely. If you want to argue that they haven't invested the most valuable draft capital into pitchers, that is certainly a fair statement. But again, not related to what I was talking about.
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Post by adamgregory on Aug 17, 2023 22:44:22 GMT -5
In the parameters given, rounds 2-6, it has been relatively even. If you'd like to make a different argument you're certainly welcome to, but that's just manipulating the discussion into something else entirely. If you want to argue that they haven't invested the most valuable draft capital into pitchers, that is certainly a fair statement. But again, not related to what I was talking about. Yes, this was my point. I also missed Dalton Rogers, so one 3rd round pick in four years. It's probably not fair to call that a spaghetti approach exactly, but they seem to be banking on some long odds. That feels like a pretty good approach to me, but I’m wondering if anyone has dug down into the numbers to prove it. That is, (1) the draft is a crapshoot, generally, but with pitching? You might as well buy a power all ticket; (2) because of the variability of pitchers, the EV difference between 1st/2nd round hitters and 3rd+ round hitters is much greater than the EV difference between 1st/2nd rd pitchers and 3rd+ round pitchers. (You won’t win your fantasy league by drafting pitchers at the top, you will win by drafting a bunch of pitchers with upside later on, and everyone knows that- so maybe Bloom is just a long time fantasy baseball player)
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Post by Guidas on Aug 18, 2023 8:44:20 GMT -5
42% of the picks in that range from the 2020 draft and on have been pitchers, so it's been disproportionately hitters in those rounds (though you could stretch an argument that, since you're aiming to draft starters first and foremost, the proportions are a bit more even), but it's not like they've avoided it entirely, it's been relatively even. So unless you think they should be drafting mostly pitchers, I would say "drafting a few" is exactly what they're already doing. In four years this front office hasn't drafted a pitcher in the first 3 rounds. Not once. Whether you agree with their approach or not it's hard to claim it's "relatively even". A potential caveat to this is the extensive data showing high school pitchers, no matter how highly ranked, have the absolute lowest odds of making it to MLB of all draft picks. In the first round, I believe it was right around 25% - not a lot of return on that investment. The odds fall-off precipitously from there. I've not seen similar data on international pitcher signings, who tend to be even younger than high schoolers. That said, the Guardians and Dodgers have made a successful habit of picking (mostly) college pitchers in rounds 3-6 with a certain profile who they believe they can add 3-6 mph on the FB with each team's insight on better technique/player development sorcery.
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 18, 2023 13:50:17 GMT -5
A potential caveat to this is the extensive data showing high school pitchers, no matter how highly ranked, have the absolute lowest odds of making it to MLB of all draft picks. In the first round, I believe it was right around 25% - not a lot of return on that investment. The odds fall-off precipitously from there. I've not seen similar data on international pitcher signings, who tend to be even younger than high schoolers. That said, the Guardians and Dodgers have made a successful habit of picking (mostly) college pitchers in rounds 3-6 with a certain profile who they believe they can add 3-6 mph on the FB with each team's insight on better technique/player development sorcery. I wasn't necessarily questioning the methodology for rounds 3-6, just the idea that they were investing evenly. To put it another way, this front office has spent $6.5M on round 3-6 hitters and $3.4M on round 3-6 pitchers. 58% of the picks and 66% of the cash. I probably should have taken a min to wordsmith my original comment, but I still don't see even. The merits/existence of the strategy should probably be discussed in a different thread, so I'll stop here. So, to get back to the thread topic, if someone like Law is penalizing a team for a lack of balance and the Sox are investing relatively little to address this he's at least (theoretically) partially justified for his critique.
Also, fyi, I fixed the error in my statement above. Why? If anything that goes more to prove the point that they disagree with him that an imbalance is actually an issue.
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Post by scottysmalls on Aug 18, 2023 15:09:13 GMT -5
Why? If anything that goes more to prove the point that they disagree with him that an imbalance is actually an issue. If your farm system can only supplement half of your mlb roster than I can see how someone might critique that. Not saying I 100% agree (and in practice I don't think it should count for much right now) just that I can at least somewhat understand his perspective after thinking it over. Sure that logic is fine enough I suppose, but I'm saying that I don't think the Red Sox choosing not to invest in that is evidence that Law is right that it should matter. He's saying balance is important, they are indicating by their actions that they don't necessarily believe that (or that they think there's better ways to bring in pitching talent than the draft).
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 18, 2023 15:27:14 GMT -5
I'd push against the idea that the Red Sox are choosing not to invest in pitching. It's most likely that they've determined large, single-player investments are better made on hitters, and that the strategy in developing pitchers can be successful without similar outlays of bonus money.
It's kind of like the point I make every year with regard to the IFA market. If they can identify pitchers at $35k, sign 8 of them, and have just as much of a chance at developing Bello as they would signing one guy for $1m while getting more money to spend elsewhere, I'm not going to be upset they didn't sign a guy for $1m. Same with the draft. They clearly think they can better spend early round picks/bonuses on hitters, while getting pitching value in later picks.
A bit of a tangent - the hitting in the system is inarguably ahead of the pitching - but a point worth making.
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Post by keninten on Aug 19, 2023 2:21:41 GMT -5
I'd push against the idea that the Red Sox are choosing not to invest in pitching. It's most likely that they've determined large, single-player investments are better made on hitters, and that the strategy in developing pitchers can be successful without similar outlays of bonus money. It's kind of like the point I make every year with regard to the IFA market. If they can identify pitchers at $35k, sign 8 of them, and have just as much of a chance at developing Bello as they would signing one guy for $1m while getting more money to spend elsewhere, I'm not going to be upset they didn't sign a guy for $1m. Same with the draft. They clearly think they can better spend early round picks/bonuses on hitters, while getting pitching value in later picks. A bit of a tangent - the hitting in the system is inarguably ahead of the pitching - but a point worth making. Are they basically going for quantity over quality? And if so wouldn`t it take longer for the pitching to catch up to the hitting? It would create very good depth with much less fanfare.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 19, 2023 8:27:01 GMT -5
I'd push against the idea that the Red Sox are choosing not to invest in pitching. It's most likely that they've determined large, single-player investments are better made on hitters, and that the strategy in developing pitchers can be successful without similar outlays of bonus money. It's kind of like the point I make every year with regard to the IFA market. If they can identify pitchers at $35k, sign 8 of them, and have just as much of a chance at developing Bello as they would signing one guy for $1m while getting more money to spend elsewhere, I'm not going to be upset they didn't sign a guy for $1m. Same with the draft. They clearly think they can better spend early round picks/bonuses on hitters, while getting pitching value in later picks. A bit of a tangent - the hitting in the system is inarguably ahead of the pitching - but a point worth making. Are they basically going for quantity over quality? And if so wouldn`t it take longer for the pitching to catch up to the hitting? It would create very good depth with much less fanfare. In the draft, no. You're capped at the number of guys you can draft, right? And the guys they take on day 3 just aren't going to have the same ceilings. Maybe you find a Kutter Crawford every now and again but that's not happening every year. Maybe you can hope for a Guerrero-level hit each year. But it's also not just a Red Sox thing. There were 24 pitchers taken in the first 70 picks this year, and I don't think it's coincidence that 11 were taken with the 19 "extra" picks (comp, competitive balance, PPI).
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Post by Guidas on Aug 20, 2023 9:41:34 GMT -5
Alex Speier on the Red Sox rise in the rankings, but really focuses almost primarily on The Baseball America ranking, with attributed quotes from Geoff Pontes at BBA. Some excerpts and highlight points: “They have a lot of everything for everyone,” said Baseball America’s Geoff Pontes, a contributor to the ranking process. “There’s just a very clear vision now with this system.” Some of the Stated Reasons: "▪ The explosion of Roman Anthony: Baseball America pegged him at No. 19 in its August rankings, just behind top prospect Marcelo Mayer (15)." "▪ Catching a high pick: The selection of Mayer in 2021 has yielded one of the top prospects in baseball...And this year, the availability of Kyle Teel with the No. 14 pick brought the Sox a highly regarded player who stands out as one of the top two-way catching prospects in the sport. Baseball America already has Teel as a top-100 player." "▪ Pitchers found the zone: Pontes described the organization’s pitchers as a potentially underrated group in the vein of the Astros of the last several years." "▪ Prospect hoarding: The Sox have traded few prospects — and no top prospects — since 2018." But he also charts some dissent among other evaluators: "Others take a more skeptical view of such players. MLB.com’s Pipeline, for instance, recently pegged the Sox as the No. 16 system, describing their pitching as being 'as thin as any organization.' Evaluators for several teams, meanwhile, expressed surprise that the Sox were ranked as a top-five system by publications." “I don’t think their system is that good,” said an NL evaluator. “They have some interesting pieces; they have quite a few volatile profiles that might not actualize. I’d say top 15.” So, like the rankings themselves, there's disagreement, especially regarding the volatile (i.e. low minors and developmental league) prospects. Of course, the whole piece has much, much more.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 20, 2023 9:44:43 GMT -5
There’s certainly room for disagreement on the system, but that analysis from the NL evaluator is so lazy. If you picked every system apart you could make that exact same cases about every one of them, save for maybe a couple on each end of the spectrum. Of course they’re volatile, that’s why they’re prospects! That doesn’t actually tell anyone why the system is or isn’t good at all.
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radiohix
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Post by radiohix on Aug 20, 2023 10:51:02 GMT -5
There’s certainly room for disagreement on the system, but that analysis from the NL evaluator is so lazy. If you picked every system apart you could make that exact same cases about every one of them, save for maybe a couple on each end of the spectrum. Of course they’re volatile, that’s why they’re prospects! That doesn’t actually tell anyone why the system is or isn’t good at all. Word on the street is that he’s the same guy that said the Sox overpaid for Yoshida.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 20, 2023 10:55:41 GMT -5
There’s certainly room for disagreement on the system, but that analysis from the NL evaluator is so lazy. If you picked every system apart you could make that exact same cases about every one of them, save for maybe a couple on each end of the spectrum. Of course they’re volatile, that’s why they’re prospects! That doesn’t actually tell anyone why the system is or isn’t good at all. Agree, although that's just a single quote and who knows what data that person has behind his eval. Speier did say "several teams" had cast a wary eye on the Sox position. That could be a product of their evaluation systems, jealousy or both. Also, this is the hardest game and, sadly, the road to MLB greatness is littered with with "volatile," high upside prospects like Anderson Espinosa, Lar Anderson, Casey Kelly, Henry Owens (and Lasting Miledge, Mark Appel, Brady Aiken, and a literal cast of thousands across MLB). Personally, I get the argument of volatility and lean toward it in large degree. It stands to reason that a closer a prospect gets to the MLB level and continues to perform at a high level, the more valuable he is overall and the closer he is to realizing FV. I've long been a proponent of weighting a prospect's position in the minors more heavily the higher he rises though the system. It seems like an overweight of projection/dreamcasting of any prospect who's not a straight-up clone of Bryce Harper (i.e. a true unicorn) being deemed a top 50 or even top 100 prospect in baseball the week after he's drafted and before he's seen or thrown any pitches at high A or above.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 20, 2023 11:00:14 GMT -5
There’s certainly room for disagreement on the system, but that analysis from the NL evaluator is so lazy. If you picked every system apart you could make that exact same cases about every one of them, save for maybe a couple on each end of the spectrum. Of course they’re volatile, that’s why they’re prospects! That doesn’t actually tell anyone why the system is or isn’t good at all. Word on the street is that he’s the same guy that said the Sox overpaid for Yoshida. I love Masa and think he will be a very good MLB pro once he adjusts to the season's length and the travel - which is much more extensive and long than in Japan. But as of right now given the fWAR conversion into $$$, Yoshida has been a significant overpay in year 1 (so far). He's currently a 1.1 fWAR player who has generated $9M in value - nothing to sneeze at but nowhere near worth his $18.0M AAV (so far). ADDED: That sets Masa as the 39th best OF by WAR - certainly not a 4th OF but in the bottom 1/3 of all qualifiers. His wRC+ on the other hand, is 15th, just below Christian Yelich. Then again, among DHs, he's 10th, though still just a 1.1 fWAR player as such. For reference, JDM is 7th and Justin Turner is 5th. So, a better performer at DH-only, but not a great value in that position.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 20, 2023 11:43:28 GMT -5
There’s certainly room for disagreement on the system, but that analysis from the NL evaluator is so lazy. If you picked every system apart you could make that exact same cases about every one of them, save for maybe a couple on each end of the spectrum. Of course they’re volatile, that’s why they’re prospects! That doesn’t actually tell anyone why the system is or isn’t good at all. I don't think it's lazy. It's a short quote from someone who I'm sure would provide more detail if you engaged in a conversation with him. It's a 10,000-foot level soundbite.
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Post by thegoodthebadthesox on Aug 20, 2023 11:51:14 GMT -5
There’s certainly room for disagreement on the system, but that analysis from the NL evaluator is so lazy. If you picked every system apart you could make that exact same cases about every one of them, save for maybe a couple on each end of the spectrum. Of course they’re volatile, that’s why they’re prospects! That doesn’t actually tell anyone why the system is or isn’t good at all. I don't think it's lazy. It's a short quote from someone who I'm sure would provide more detail if you engaged in a conversation with him. It's a 10,000-foot level soundbite. I don’t doubt that the extent of his thoughts range beyond that soundbite, but if you have all of that information and decide to boil it down to that summary, it’s lazy (in my opinion).
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Post by wcsoxfan on Aug 20, 2023 12:56:20 GMT -5
Just to add additional context: - Yoshida would be worth ~10% more fWAR (0.1134) if he had played every game at DH this year. - LF at Fenway is notoriously difficult for OAA (or any other defensive metric) to measure and players are typically better than indicated (Verdugo was -4 OAA there just last year) so Masataka is likely more valuable than fWAR indicates. - The Masataka signing was universally panned as an overpay, so de-valuing the opinion of those who panned it would be to de-value almost all non-Red Sox/Masa fans.
I also like Masa and am especially hopeful his signing leads to acquiring Yoshi in the offseason.
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Post by Guidas on Aug 20, 2023 13:15:01 GMT -5
I don't think it's lazy. It's a short quote from someone who I'm sure would provide more detail if you engaged in a conversation with him. It's a 10,000-foot level soundbite. I don’t doubt that the extent of his thoughts range beyond that soundbite, but if you have all of that information and decide to boil it down to that summary, it’s lazy (in my opinion). Then again, as a rival evaluator, why give away your methods or data points?
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