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Corey Kluber Moving to the bullpen
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Post by cheers on May 24, 2023 16:30:23 GMT -5
If they are smart, it would be: Sale Bello Houck Paxton Crawford Jansen Whitlock Martin Winckowski Pivetta Rodriguez Kluber/Blier (eventually Schrieber) Whitlock is far more valuable at this point pitching high leverage relief innings. Crawford could be just as good, if not better as a starter and we know how elite Whitelock was in the pen. Whitlock throwing 94mph as a starter is not the same pitcher. Exactly this. We know Whitlock can be a filthy reliever. We think Crawford can be an adequate starter. Give it a shot.
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Post by rhswanzey on May 24, 2023 16:43:24 GMT -5
Tough, yes - unwise, definitely. Subtracting those two, Crawford becomes the only remaining SP depth. None of Mata (IL), Murphy, Walter or Drohan look ready for an MLB start. Many of us feel Wincowski is (or ought to be) permanently in the pen. You can’t have just one spare starter on hand with all of the injury and workload questions in this rotation. There’s over a hundred games left.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 24, 2023 17:04:56 GMT -5
Just release him.
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Post by julyanmorley on May 24, 2023 17:06:53 GMT -5
Everyone wants to DFA Kluber. Sherriff and Bernandino are both pretty easy cuts before Kluber.
It really wouldn't be that surprising if they fixed Kluber and he was a fine starter in August.
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Post by rico6 on May 24, 2023 17:13:36 GMT -5
Everyone wants to DFA Kluber. Sherriff and Bernandino are both pretty easy cuts before Kluber. It really wouldn't be that surprising if they fixed Kluber and he was a fine starter in August. While they should have pulled him out of the rotation, I agree with you that if wouldn't be surprising that they are continuing to work with him in hopes of finding an issue they can fix with him. He'll just have to try to fix the issues out of the bullpen.
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Post by manfred on May 24, 2023 18:25:47 GMT -5
Everyone wants to DFA Kluber. Sherriff and Bernandino are both pretty easy cuts before Kluber. It really wouldn't be that surprising if they fixed Kluber and he was a fine starter in August. I’m not against trying… I agree on some easy cuts. But watching Kluber, I’d still say it would be *very* surprising. Indeed, a bullpen move makes it less likely in my mind, if only because it suggests he’s 100% healthy. I’d say he might come back strong if he were getting IL’d for something that might mitigate his performance. But if this is him on all cylinders, I’m not sure there is much they can do. But, $10 mill in and I suspect no takers, give it a whirl.
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ericmvan
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Post by ericmvan on May 24, 2023 18:43:16 GMT -5
First, I go back and forth about how good an idea it is to have multiple multi-inning relievers. Is it a good idea? Or a great one?
There is always a place on the roster for a low-leverage long man. There is not a place for two.
So the key here is Pivetta. He has to be a guy you more or less trust to go 1 - 5 innings in medium or even high leverage, when you don't want to use Winck or Crawford. With his stuff, that seems very possible.
And Kluber gets a chance to recover his ability to throw strikes, but without the burden of needing to succeed immediately.
And it makes no sense to cut him. You have 8 starters on the roster and no one at AAA at all, so you would have to replace him on the roster with an up-and-down guy, a guy who's 9th or 10th on the depth chart of a team that is loaded in AAA (you know, like we thought we would be right now!). If you don't do that, the 8th man on your depth chart, the guy who starts if 3 of the 7 guys are hurt, is Desperation Acquisition.
So you'd be paying Kluber's salary and trading away a prospect ... with no guarantee that you've made the team better.
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Post by benogliviesbrother on May 24, 2023 19:05:37 GMT -5
Everyone wants to DFA Kluber. Sherriff and Bernandino are both pretty easy cuts before Kluber. It really wouldn't be that surprising if they fixed Kluber and he was a fine starter in August. I do not want to DFA Kluber. So not "everyone."
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Post by manfred on May 24, 2023 20:36:05 GMT -5
Everyone wants to DFA Kluber. Sherriff and Bernandino are both pretty easy cuts before Kluber. It really wouldn't be that surprising if they fixed Kluber and he was a fine starter in August. I do not want to DFA Kluber. So not "everyone." Seems like his point is he doesn’t either. So the “everyone” is hyperbole.
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Post by dirtywaterinla on May 25, 2023 15:26:39 GMT -5
I do not want to DFA Kluber. So not "everyone." Seems like his point is he doesn’t either. So the “everyone” is hyperbole. Definitely hyperbole. Do I think Kluber is absolutely cooked? 110%. But as others have noted, it’s just too risky to let him go with so little viable SP depth in the minors.
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cdj
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Post by cdj on May 25, 2023 15:50:00 GMT -5
If they can figure out a way to get his command back to last year he’s a perfectly acceptable backend starter. The problem is you can’t throw 88 with bad control/command like has been the case this year- no chance to get away with it. If you know exactly where the 88 is going then sure you can! He showed that last year
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Post by FenwayFanatic on May 25, 2023 22:03:32 GMT -5
Well which is it? "Bloom walked away from Eovaldi" or "Nate wanted to further test the market"?
However you want to describe it, it's true that the Red Sox prioritized Eovaldi but he rejected their offer, though it is apparently the best one he would end up receiving. But what is the point of bringing this up over and over again? No one needs the "reminder." (Should we also issue reminders that the Red Sox didn't pursue Rodon, Bassitt, Verlander, or Correa, even though a lot of people wanted to sign one of those guys?)
yup... and if someone rejects your offer, its even more risky to wait around and hope they come back to you. then you end up with nothing... Most offers have a set timeline to accept, be it in sports, or other areas in which contracts are signed... He’s right in that Bloom’s strategy made no sense. Went over the cap at the deadline last year to get Tommy Pham with a heavily injured team, but then Eovaldi wants to come back on a reasonable deal, and suddenly that was too pricey so he signed Kluber? Also randomly signed a 35 year old closer to the same money as Eovaldi.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 25, 2023 22:46:40 GMT -5
Seems like his point is he doesn’t either. So the “everyone” is hyperbole. Definitely hyperbole. Do I think Kluber is absolutely cooked? 110%. But as others have noted, it’s just too risky to let him go with so little viable SP depth in the minors. They have for a rotation: Paxton Sale Houck Whitlock Bello Emergency/replacement starters Pivetta Crawford Winkowski I think they're fine. I'm sure Mata can give up 5 runs in 2.1 IP like Kluber if they got that desperate. As far as Eovaldi goes, he was a core piece to your rotation and World Series run. He was your best starter the last few years. I think he earned the right to have a standing offer. Kluber is completely cooked. I'd honestly rather the nothing at this point and I'm someone who was somewhat excited about the signing if only for being a big fan of the pitcher. And no, Wacha signed pretty late too so even if Eovaldi signed with Texas still and Kluber somewhere else, it turned out there was still a better pitcher waiting. I personally thought Wacha wouldn't do well with the no shift, but clearly I was wrong.
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Post by bosoxnation on May 26, 2023 0:17:49 GMT -5
Everyone wants to DFA Kluber. Sherriff and Bernandino are both pretty easy cuts before Kluber. It really wouldn't be that surprising if they fixed Kluber and he was a fine starter in August. YES! 31 starts last year with a 4.34 era in this division. Letting him walk would be a mistake. I like the bullpen move for now. I can see him coming back strong.
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Post by kingofthetrill on May 26, 2023 1:22:19 GMT -5
Just a reminder that Bloom walked away from Eovaldi after making him an initial offer when Nate wanted to further test the market. When Eovaldi came back to the Sox in Dec seeking to return, the window was closed (at least, if I'm recalling the reporting correctly). According to Fangraphs, Eovaldi has earned $18.9M in WAR value so far this year - so $1.9M more than his AAV for the year and it's not even June. His full contract is for 2 years at $17M per year with an innings vesting option for a third year. Kluber, who can be seen as a lower cost replacement for Eovaldi, has generated -$3.4M in WAR value and is now headed to the pen. That was the ONE contract that an ex-Sox was given that AT THAT TIME I wished the Red Sox had given.
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Post by bosoxnation on May 26, 2023 1:26:29 GMT -5
Nate signed a 3 year 63 mill deal. Last year he started 20 games 3.87 ERA. CK signed 1 year 10 mill with a club option for 11 mill year next year after starting 31 games with a 4.34 in the same division. You can’t blame Bloom for going for the guy who pitched more games and was half the price. He’s very familiar with the division so it seemed like a no brainer. Unfortunately the worst case scenario has happened. I just pray he can turn it around and believe he can!
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Post by Chris Hatfield on May 26, 2023 1:46:18 GMT -5
I don't see this being much more than just an insurance policy in case one of the other starters gets hurt again in the next week or two. I don't see his stuff being any better in the bullpen so he's a straight up mop-up long reliever if he even makes it into a game. As Notstarboard said when Whitlock and Schreiber are back what role would Kluber really have? This. Nobody from Mata, Walter, and Murphy has established themselves as ready to provide depth, so they need to hoard it in the MLB bullpen in the form of Pivetta, Kluber and Crawford.
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Post by dirtywaterinla on May 26, 2023 2:15:56 GMT -5
Definitely hyperbole. Do I think Kluber is absolutely cooked? 110%. But as others have noted, it’s just too risky to let him go with so little viable SP depth in the minors. They have for a rotation: Paxton Sale Houck Whitlock Bello Emergency/replacement starters Pivetta Crawford Winkowski I think they're fine. I'm sure Mata can give up 5 runs in 2.1 IP like Kluber if they got that desperate. As far as Eovaldi goes, he was a core piece to your rotation and World Series run. He was your best starter the last few years. I think he earned the right to have a standing offer. Kluber is completely cooked. I'd honestly rather the nothing at this point and I'm someone who was somewhat excited about the signing if only for being a big fan of the pitcher. And no, Wacha signed pretty late too so even if Eovaldi signed with Texas still and Kluber somewhere else, it turned out there was still a better pitcher waiting. I personally thought Wacha wouldn't do well with the no shift, but clearly I was wrong. Mata is on the IL though. Not to mention, Walter and Murphy have been absolute garbage thus far. Kluber is terrible now, but man oh man would it be a nightmare to have any of these guys starting big league games. There is also zero way I want Winckowski starting unless 3 guys went down at the same time. He’s been an absolute weapon out of the pen.
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Post by redsoxfan2 on May 26, 2023 7:24:56 GMT -5
They have for a rotation: Paxton Sale Houck Whitlock Bello Emergency/replacement starters Pivetta Crawford Winkowski I think they're fine. I'm sure Mata can give up 5 runs in 2.1 IP like Kluber if they got that desperate. As far as Eovaldi goes, he was a core piece to your rotation and World Series run. He was your best starter the last few years. I think he earned the right to have a standing offer. Kluber is completely cooked. I'd honestly rather the nothing at this point and I'm someone who was somewhat excited about the signing if only for being a big fan of the pitcher. And no, Wacha signed pretty late too so even if Eovaldi signed with Texas still and Kluber somewhere else, it turned out there was still a better pitcher waiting. I personally thought Wacha wouldn't do well with the no shift, but clearly I was wrong. Mata is on the IL though. Not to mention, Walter and Murphy have been absolute garbage thus far. Kluber is terrible now, but man oh man would it be a nightmare to have any of these guys starting big league games. There is also zero way I want Winckowski starting unless 3 guys went down at the same time. He’s been an absolute weapon out of the pen. I do agree with all of that, but didn't realize Mata was on the IL. Still, at this point it's not like the Red Sox couldn't find a guy on waivers or trade cash considerations for a spot starter. I just think keeping a liability on the roster in case 3 guys go down is a bit much.
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redsox04071318champs
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Post by redsox04071318champs on May 26, 2023 11:53:55 GMT -5
Nate signed a 3 year 63 mill deal. Last year he started 20 games 3.87 ERA. CK signed 1 year 10 mill with a club option for 11 mill year next year after starting 31 games with a 4.34 in the same division. You can’t blame Bloom for going for the guy who pitched more games and was half the price. He’s very familiar with the division so it seemed like a no brainer. Unfortunately the worst case scenario has happened. I just pray he can turn it around and believe he can! I didnt like that decision from the get go. I remember hearing they were going after 2 starters in the offseason, so I was fine with bring back Eovaldi and bringing in Kluber, but I wasn't happy about bringing in Kluber instead of Eovaldi. Look at Eovaldi's past three seasons. He was their best most reliable starter and pretty damn good. Keeping an ERA at 4 or less for 3 straight seasons at Fenway playing a tough AL East schedule was impressive. With the season on the line in 2021, who got the call in the do or die game against the Yankees? Eovaldi did, plus he was pretty good in the postseason. They most certainly could have circled back to him instead of Kluber and they'd still be around the limit, which they should have ducked under last season, when they failed to trade away Martinez or shouldn't have acquired Pham. I didnt think Corey Kluber would turn into Corey Klobber, but I'm not surprised that Eovaldi is flourishing. He's a damn good pitcher. So now the Sox have a good deal of room below the tax limit, so gee, what does this team need the most? How about a reliable effective top to mid rotation starter you can stack with Sale, Bello, and Paxton. So now what prospects will it cost in a trade to get somebody like that?
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Post by iakovos11 on May 26, 2023 12:50:56 GMT -5
Nate signed a 3 year 63 mill deal. Last year he started 20 games 3.87 ERA. CK signed 1 year 10 mill with a club option for 11 mill year next year after starting 31 games with a 4.34 in the same division. You can’t blame Bloom for going for the guy who pitched more games and was half the price. He’s very familiar with the division so it seemed like a no brainer. Unfortunately the worst case scenario has happened. I just pray he can turn it around and believe he can! I didnt like that decision from the get go. I remember hearing they were going after 2 starters in the offseason, so I was fine with bring back Eovaldi and bringing in Kluber, but I wasn't happy about bringing in Kluber instead of Eovaldi. Look at Eovaldi's past three seasons. He was their best most reliable starter and pretty damn good. Keeping an ERA at 4 or less for 3 straight seasons at Fenway playing a tough AL East schedule was impressive. With the season on the line in 2021, who got the call in the do or die game against the Yankees? Eovaldi did, plus he was pretty good in the postseason. They most certainly could have circled back to him instead of Kluber and they'd still be around the limit, which they should have ducked under last season, when they failed to trade away Martinez or shouldn't have acquired Pham. I didnt think Corey Kluber would turn into Corey Klobber, but I'm not surprised that Eovaldi is flourishing. He's a damn good pitcher. So now the Sox have a good deal of room below the tax limit, so gee, what does this team need the most? How about a reliable effective top to mid rotation starter you can stack with Sale, Bello, and Paxton. So now what prospects will it cost in a trade to get somebody like that? Again, the Sox tried to bring back Eovaldi. Their offer was better than what he signed for. But he wanted to keep testing the market (or his agent did). Expecting the Sox to hang around wait him out and potentially end up with no options is unreasonable.
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Post by julyanmorley on May 26, 2023 13:23:56 GMT -5
Of the 15 pitchers that signed for at least $30 million this offseason, a full 13 of those deals already look like mistakes. I don't really wanna hear how the Sox screwed up by not bringing in a top end starter because they could have signed one of the other two (both of which they were the high bidder for).
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Post by patford on May 26, 2023 13:48:19 GMT -5
I don't see this being much more than just an insurance policy in case one of the other starters gets hurt again in the next week or two. I don't see his stuff being any better in the bullpen so he's a straight up mop-up long reliever if he even makes it into a game. As Notstarboard said when Whitlock and Schreiber are back what role would Kluber really have? This. Nobody from Mata, Walter, and Murphy has established themselves as ready to provide depth... Not even close. They have been horrible. And unfortunately Drohan has also been awful recently. If the Sox cut lose Kluber my prediction is the Rays or Yankees would pick him up. Boston would still be paying his salary aside from the MLB minimum and Kluber would begin going 6-7 inning with an ERA around 4.00 - 4.50.
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Post by incandenza on May 26, 2023 14:01:15 GMT -5
Of the 15 pitchers that signed for at least $30 million this offseason, a full 13 of those deals already look like mistakes. I don't really wanna hear how the Sox screwed up by not bringing in a top end starter because they could have signed one of the other two (both of which they were the high bidder for). Apparently their plans A, B, and C for the rotation were Eovaldi, Eflin, and Heaney, which speaks pretty damn well of their evaluative abilities.
A different question would be: given that they were apparently down to plan D with Kluber, was there a pitcher in that price range that would have been a better option? Guys in that range included:
Lyles (2/19): 7.15 ERA Syndergaaerd (1/13): 5.88 ERA Clevinger (1/12): no Gibson (1/10): 3.82 ERA; score one for the O's Boyd (1/10): 5.74 ERA Cueto (1/8.5): 1 IP; 60-day IL Greinke (1/8.5): 4.55 ERA but probably not really an option Lorenzen (1/8.5): 4.08 ERA Hill (1/8): 4.27 ERA
There are certainly some guys here who have been less bad than Kluber, but also it's a list of has-beens, converted relievers, and fifth starter types. A bunch of Pivettas at best.
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Post by ematz1423 on May 26, 2023 14:19:52 GMT -5
Of the 15 pitchers that signed for at least $30 million this offseason, a full 13 of those deals already look like mistakes. I don't really wanna hear how the Sox screwed up by not bringing in a top end starter because they could have signed one of the other two (both of which they were the high bidder for). Apparently their plans A, B, and C for the rotation were Eovaldi, Eflin, and Heaney, which speaks pretty damn well of their evaluative abilities.
A different question would be: given that they were apparently down to plan D with Kluber, was there a pitcher in that price range that would have been a better option? Guys in that range included:
Lyles (2/19): 7.15 ERA Syndergaaerd (1/13): 5.88 ERA Clevinger (1/12): no Gibson (1/10): 3.82 ERA; score one for the O's Boyd (1/10): 5.74 ERA Cueto (1/8.5): 1 IP; 60-day IL Greinke (1/8.5): 4.55 ERA but probably not really an option Lorenzen (1/8.5): 4.08 ERA Hill (1/8): 4.27 ERA
There are certainly some guys here who have been less bad than Kluber, but also it's a list of has-beens, converted relievers, and fifth starter types. A bunch of Pivettas at best.
Moral of the story, you win some you lose some in free agency especially when it comes to bargain bin shopping for SPs. I am a little surprised they didn't just try and bring rich hill back instead of Kluber but at the same time if someone had asked me preseason who would have a better year Kluber or Hill I'd have guessed Kluber. As they say hindsight is 20/20. The other moral of the story is that it's important as ever to develop quality cost controlled Pitching.
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