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Post by bighead on Jun 21, 2013 12:10:56 GMT -5
I'll leave the evalutions, rankings and projections to the experts but is it time to rethink what this guy is or can be? He seems to have taken a leap this year.
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Post by jchang on Jun 21, 2013 15:08:17 GMT -5
I don't think he will be a closer, but I can see late inning or long reliever, or a good 4/5th starter. But I have not seen him since last year. Or I can see Workman + Alex traded to Philly for Pap
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Post by johnsilver52 on Jun 21, 2013 15:54:56 GMT -5
I'd much rather see Workman get a start than Steven Wright at the MLB level, also see him added to the roster and given a spot start if needed if Aceves/Webster isn't available right now.
The guy has done everything asked of him since he has been in the system and has been solid as he has done it. I don't want him given away as a throw in in any bedard type deal if the team makes one at the deadline. He's got some potential.
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Post by larrycook on Jun 23, 2013 9:17:11 GMT -5
I don't think he will be a closer, but I can see late inning or long reliever, or a good 4/5th starter. But I have not seen him since last year. Or I can see Workman + Alex traded to Philly for Pap I really hope we do not trade for Papelbon, he is not the same pitcher now that people seem to remember. I can't see Workman as a closer. The stuff is just not that good, but he could be an excellent 6th or 7th inning guy. The problem is that he throws the cutter every time he has 2 strikes on hitters, and MLB hitters are lethal when they know what pitch is coming. When his control is on he has other options, but when it is not, he goes to the cutter.
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Post by njsox on Jun 23, 2013 10:08:29 GMT -5
Looks a bit like a John Lackey clone to me, which is not a bad thing at all. Lackey was one hell of a pitcher for a decent stretch in his career. I think he can be a solid starter with a handful of plus years. With that being said, I would be interested to see how his stuff plays out of the pen. I think, when it comes to closers, "stuff" is being overvalued and control (even more so command) are being undervalued.
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Jun 23, 2013 10:10:46 GMT -5
I don't think he will be a closer, but I can see late inning or long reliever, or a good 4/5th starter. But I have not seen him since last year. Or I can see Workman + Alex traded to Philly for Pap I really hope we do not trade for Papelbon, he is not the same pitcher now that people seem to remember. I can't see Workman as a closer. The stuff is just not that good, but he could be an excellent 6th or 7th inning guy. The problem is that he throws the cutter every time he has 2 strikes on hitters, and MLB hitters are lethal when they know what pitch is coming. When his control is on he has other options, but when it is not, he goes to the cutter. Mo did it...
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Post by sarasoxer on Jun 23, 2013 10:51:52 GMT -5
I can't see Paps coming back....he leaves baggage everywhere.
As for Workman....I see him as a starter 3rd-5th. I don't know whether he has another gear for relief.
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alnipper
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Post by alnipper on Jun 23, 2013 10:55:11 GMT -5
I think he is under ranked currently.
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Post by wcsoxfan on Jun 23, 2013 11:26:23 GMT -5
Every scouting report I have read on the guy indicates that he doesn't have the potential to be a major league starter. Here is what Soxprospects scouting report says about him:
"...Effort in delivery wears him down multiple times through a lineup. Jerky nature of mechanics affects ability to repeat arm slot and overall command of arsenal as a starter. Projects as a reliever at the major-league level. Ceiling of an eighth-inning reliever on a contending team."
So unless he has changed his delivery (which I haven't heard) AND has taken a huge step forward with either his curveball or changeup, then it appears that the bullpen is in his future.
But considering that Mariano proved that it is possible to dominate while throwing almost nothing but an extremely accurate plus-to-better cutter, I don't think this is a bad thing. I would like to see him moved to being a reliever as the bullpen will have to undergo a massive overhaul after next year anyway. Maybe he will be a solid 7th inning man, or maybe he will develop into something much better - you never really know.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jun 23, 2013 13:01:03 GMT -5
Every scouting report I have read on the guy indicates that he doesn't have the potential to be a major league starter. .... Sickels www.minorleagueball.com/2013/6/21/4451712/minor-league-ball-gameday-june-21"Boston Red Sox prospect Brandon Workman threw seven shutout innings for Pawtucket in his third start at the Triple-A level, giving him a 1.89 ERA in 19 innings with an 18/8 K/BB. He performed very well in Double-A before his recent promotion (3.43 ERA, 74/17 K/BB in 66 innings) and at his current pace would be in line for a major league trial sometime late in the season. The second round pick out of the University of Texas in 2010 has been brought along fairly cautiously but has been effective at each level to which he's been exposed. I still see him as an inning-eating workhorse type." www.minorleagueball.com/2013/5/1/4290442/minor-league-ball-gameday-may-1"Boston Red Sox prospect Brandon Workman threw six perfect innings yesterday for Double-A Portland before giving up a hit in the seventh. Overall the former University of Texas workhorse has a 2.57 ERA with a 34/6 K/BB in 29.2 innings this season, allowing a mere 15 hits. I don't think he gets as much attention as he deserves as a prospect. That's rather strange actually, since he went to a major baseball school, was a second round pick in 2010, and has been generally very effective as a professional. He's not a soft-tosser, he has four pitches, and he throws strikes.Where's the hype?" www.minorleagueball.com/2013/1/7/3848710/boston-red-sox-top-20-prospects-for-2013"9) Brandon Workman, RHP, Grade B-: Not spectacular, but seems like he'll become a workhorse arm. If he switches to relief he would be more dominant, but even the Red Sox need inning eaters."
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jun 23, 2013 13:03:12 GMT -5
fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2013/05/29/red-sox-minor-league-roundup-matt-barnes-or-brandon-workman-chris-martins-streak-ends-blake-swihart-mashes-in-may/Alex Speier and Katie Morrison: "Meanwhile, over a one-year stretch dating back to his final start of last May in Salem, Workman has logged 161 2/3 innings with a 3.45 ERA, 161 strikeouts and 32 walks (9.0 strikeouts and just 1.8 walks per nine). His attacks the strike zone relentlessly with his low- to mid-90s fastball, features a curveball that will play in the big leagues and has a cutter that gets bad contact. Those who see him on the mound love his competitiveness and the conviction with which he throws everything. And while there were questions early in his career about whether he was too much of a max effort pitcher to remain a starter, the consistency with which he records six-plus innings while sustaining his stuff has gone a long way to answer those asterisks."
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Post by sturmrider on Jun 23, 2013 13:33:13 GMT -5
I don't think anyone told Workman he is not a starter and will not be one when he reaches the Show. He just goes out and does what he can and lets the results speak for themselves. Myself I would love to see him get the opportunity with the Sox. He might surprise us.
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Post by elguapo on Jun 24, 2013 8:06:04 GMT -5
Tough to argue with success - and really, why would you want to? He seems to be a cut above some of the other fringy college starters that have come through in recent years (Wilson, Fife, Weiland).
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Post by Guidas on Jun 24, 2013 10:06:28 GMT -5
I tagged this guy as a #3 starter in his peak from the point when I saw him pitching for UTexas the year of his draft and I'm sticking to it til he proves it wrong, but the closer idea would be interesting to see in action, esp if he could get another 2-3 MPH on the FB. Everything else in his repertoire would become that much better because of that.
Also, love it when the best thing you can say about a guy is "he's an innings eater." That's like "she's got a great personality," "he managed to graduate college," or "the food at that restaurant won't kill you."
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Jun 24, 2013 10:23:23 GMT -5
The guy's ceiling is a #4 or 5 starter and we have guys like Webster, RDLR, Ranaudo, Barnes, Owens, and (way) down the line Ball in the farm so why not have him be an elite reliever that could dominate? Same goes for Britton
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jun 24, 2013 10:40:29 GMT -5
We always talk about prospects floor/ceiling, and when doing so we always want to think their ceiling is much higher when the perform well (in the minor leagues). Prospects stretch their ceilings sometimes, it happens, you can't scout/project everyone with 100% accuracy and Maybe Workman is that guy. Or maybe Workman is just reaching or showing us that he may be much more likely than we thought earlier that he reaches that ceiling. I think this guy has a really good shot at being a good back of the rotation starter.
I know there is some concerns with his delivery, but let him pitch out of starting. As long as he's effective why switch anything? Of course Boston may view him as either a starter elsewhere or a reliever in Boston. I have to admit I absolutely love this guys control. I'd rather have a #4,5 starter who has a 4.70 era because he can be hittable at times rather than the guy who walks 5-6 batters a game.
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Jun 24, 2013 10:55:56 GMT -5
We always talk about prospects floor/ceiling, and when doing so we always want to think their ceiling is much higher when the perform well (in the minor leagues). Prospects stretch their ceilings sometimes, it happens, you can't scout/project everyone with 100% accuracy and Maybe Workman is that guy. Or maybe Workman is just reaching or showing us that he may be much more likely than we thought earlier that he reaches that ceiling. I think this guy has a really good shot at being a good back of the rotation starter. I know there is some concerns with his delivery, but let him pitch out of starting. As long as he's effective why switch anything? Of course Boston may view him as either a starter elsewhere or a reliever in Boston. I have to admit I absolutely love this guys control. I'd rather have a #4,5 starter who has a 4.70 era because he can be hittable at times rather than the guy who walks 5-6 batters a game. But why would you want that when you could have a fringe-elite reliever with a 2.65 ERA
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Post by greatscottcooper on Jun 24, 2013 10:59:55 GMT -5
We always talk about prospects floor/ceiling, and when doing so we always want to think their ceiling is much higher when the perform well (in the minor leagues). Prospects stretch their ceilings sometimes, it happens, you can't scout/project everyone with 100% accuracy and Maybe Workman is that guy. Or maybe Workman is just reaching or showing us that he may be much more likely than we thought earlier that he reaches that ceiling. I think this guy has a really good shot at being a good back of the rotation starter. I know there is some concerns with his delivery, but let him pitch out of starting. As long as he's effective why switch anything? Of course Boston may view him as either a starter elsewhere or a reliever in Boston. I have to admit I absolutely love this guys control. I'd rather have a #4,5 starter who has a 4.70 era because he can be hittable at times rather than the guy who walks 5-6 batters a game. But why would you want that when you could have a fringe-elite reliever with a 2.65 ERA With the depth we have in our system, I would whole heartedly be ok with Workman going to the bullpen. His cutter + his control really excites me. But if the Sox packaged him in a trade or kinda used him as a up down/spot start move to the bullpen guy for a season/half a season I would be ok with that too. I think it will be very interesting to see what the Sox do with him.
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Jun 24, 2013 11:24:30 GMT -5
But why would you want that when you could have a fringe-elite reliever with a 2.65 ERA With the depth we have in our system, I would whole heartedly be ok with Workman going to the bullpen. His cutter + his control really excites me. But if the Sox packaged him in a trade or kinda used him as a up down/spot start move to the bullpen guy for a season/half a season I would be ok with that too. I think it will be very interesting to see what the Sox do with him. To me he kind of reminds me of Tazawa because they both have the stuff to be a #4 or 5 guys and excellent control
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Post by ramireja on Jun 24, 2013 11:28:26 GMT -5
Despite the depth of pitching in our farm system right now, I love Workman as a starter because of his ability to pitch relatively efficiently and work deeper into games. I'd love to see him work his way into the majors and be a quality start hog. That kind of stability is much appreciated by the bullpen. If guys like Doubront and Webster continue to have control/command problems and average about 5.5 innings per start (I know Webster is young/developing, I'm far from giving up hope on his fastball command), thats going to be a real problem. Those are the guys best suited for the bullpen IMO, not the guy who can consistently average 6.5-7 innings per start and maybe give up 2-3 runs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2013 11:50:59 GMT -5
Read different things. Some say that he can be a backend guy. Others like Chris Mellen, think that he'll wear out as a regular rotation guy. Can probably be a swing guy who can start for you every once in a while. Maybe like Aceves but without the drama.
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jimoh
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Post by jimoh on Jun 24, 2013 12:05:11 GMT -5
... Also, love it when the best thing you can say about a guy is "he's an innings eater." That's like "she's got a great personality," "he managed to graduate college," or "the food at that restaurant won't kill you." Completely disagree. If you give up 4 runs in the first 5 innings and throw 105 pitches, they take you out and you do not eat innings. I see the term "innings eater" as a competent 4 or 5 starter who will give you seven innings and a chance both to win the game and use your bullpen sparingly. A lot better than "she's got a great personality."
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Post by jchang on Jun 24, 2013 13:06:17 GMT -5
From the top 150 MLB pitchers ranked in games started, discarding about 8 who had many non-starts, I am left with 142 pitchers with 1911 starts, and 1932 games, so almost all with this data is for IP by starters. There are 7 averaging 7 IP per game, 25 better than 6.5 IPG and 78 better than 6 IPG
Assuming the 3 starter is ranked 75 in IP per G, that would be just about 6 IPG and a 4 starter at 105, 5.6 IPG and a 5 starter at 135, 5.17 IPG So I would love it if our 4/5 starters can do 6-7 IPG
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Post by Guidas on Jun 24, 2013 13:34:58 GMT -5
... Also, love it when the best thing you can say about a guy is "he's an innings eater." That's like "she's got a great personality," "he managed to graduate college," or "the food at that restaurant won't kill you." Completely disagree. If you give up 4 runs in the first 5 innings and throw 105 pitches, they take you out and you do not eat innings. I see the term "innings eater" as a competent 4 or 5 starter who will give you seven innings and a chance both to win the game and use your bullpen sparingly. A lot better than "she's got a great personality." 7 innings and a chance to win the game sounds like a very good #3 starter or better to me.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Jun 24, 2013 15:48:09 GMT -5
Completely disagree. If you give up 4 runs in the first 5 innings and throw 105 pitches, they take you out and you do not eat innings. I see the term "innings eater" as a competent 4 or 5 starter who will give you seven innings and a chance both to win the game and use your bullpen sparingly. A lot better than "she's got a great personality." 7 innings and a chance to win the game sounds like a very good #3 starter or better to me. Better. Think about it: averaging 7 IP is saying that for every game you go just 5 ip, you throw a 9-inning CG. And this in a time where the league-leaders in CG right now are Wainwright and Zimmermann with 3.
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