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2014 Sox Catching Tandem?
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 23, 2013 7:06:53 GMT -5
I have a question on Vasquez from someone who has seen him play a lot. What is the deal with 19 passed balls? Does he not block balls in the dirt? The video's that I have seen on him I love his pop and throw but for me a defensive catcher has to do it all. Call a good game, frame, block and throw. I assumed from what I had read he had this covered. 19 passed balls does not say that to me. Is he trying to frame it and missing? Does he get lazy and not move his feet? I don't know what the specific issue is, but a) part of the issue could definitely be Haeger, and b) a large part of his defensive rep comes from his elite arm, but I've been hearing that the blocking and game-calling aren't at that level at all yet.
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 23, 2013 8:33:22 GMT -5
I just checked and 6 of Vazquez's 19 passed balls have been with Haeger pitching.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 23, 2013 9:03:38 GMT -5
I have a question on Vasquez from someone who has seen him play a lot. What is the deal with 19 passed balls? Does he not block balls in the dirt? The video's that I have seen on him I love his pop and throw but for me a defensive catcher has to do it all. Call a good game, frame, block and throw. I assumed from what I had read he had this covered. 19 passed balls does not say that to me. Is he trying to frame it and missing? Does he get lazy and not move his feet? I don't know what the specific issue is, but a) part of the issue could definitely be Haeger, and b) a large part of his defensive rep comes from his elite arm, but I've been hearing that the blocking and game-calling aren't at that level at all yet. That's interesting. I wonder why his manager called him the best defensive minor league catcher he's ever seen. He must not be watching very close.
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Post by azblue on Aug 23, 2013 9:13:00 GMT -5
"...but I've been hearing that the blocking and game-calling aren't at that level at all yet."
Every story that I have read (including quotes from his manager and coaches) have been complimentary regarding all aspects of his defense. Do you have a link to any manager, coach or scout questioning those aspects of Vasquez's defense?
Also, saying his blocking ability and pitch calling are not the best in the minor leagues is hardly criticism.
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Post by terriblehondo on Aug 23, 2013 9:17:19 GMT -5
13 pass balls is still a lot. That is why I was wondering if it was from him trying to steal strikes. If the manager who watches him everyday and should be evaluating him thinks he is an outstanding defensive catcher that is good for me. Watching someone every day you see all the flaws as well as the good things. Blocking can be taught (as long as you have the will) because Salty has made huge strides in that department since he came to the Sox.
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theo
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by theo on Aug 23, 2013 9:24:55 GMT -5
I don't know why McCann is such a question other than 2012 he has been worth around 3 wins a seasons. If wins cost 4 million per, a 12 million dollar contract would be reasonable. He provides a great amount of defensive upgrade over Salty. Here's the deal, in theory he could be moved to 1b/DH but I just don't think his bat plays that well with out being the catcher. However in three years his value as a catcher will still exist. Guy is pretty young only 29 now. I say let him catch for three of the four years on the deal and pick up some good prospects by trading his remaining year if Swilhart or Vasquez emerge as starters. Not to mention Denny will be on the horizon by then. Guy is a stud and the difference between him and the rest of the catching competition is huge. He's probably the 5 or 6th best catcher in the league.
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Post by James Dunne on Aug 23, 2013 9:31:17 GMT -5
That's interesting. I wonder why his manager called him the best defensive minor league catcher he's ever seen. He must not be watching very close. Managers talk their own players up, often hyperbolically, all the time. And calling a game is one of the toughest things for a player to learn. It's not an athletic skill, per se, but has to do with really knowing the pitchers and batters and situations. Vazquez only just turned 23 (on Wednesday), so a little ego boost from that from his manager, even if it wasn't totally true, might have been in order. Also, Ivan Rodriguez was being given gold gloves when his game-calling and blocking skills lagged pretty far behind his throwing. I know that Gold Gloves are bad as an actual measure of defense, but it gives an indication of what other managers thought of him. Not that Pudge should be compared with Vazquez - he won his fourth Gold Glove at 23.
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Post by philsbosoxfan on Aug 23, 2013 9:46:44 GMT -5
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Post by Chris Hatfield on Aug 23, 2013 13:08:52 GMT -5
"...but I've been hearing that the blocking and game-calling aren't at that level at all yet." Every story that I have read (including quotes from his manager and coaches) have been complimentary regarding all aspects of his defense. Do you have a link to any manager, coach or scout questioning those aspects of Vasquez's defense? Also, saying his blocking ability and pitch calling are not the best in the minor leagues is hardly criticism. A) The last sentence is key. I'm not saying they're bad at all. I'm just saying that while his catch-and-throw ability is elite, the other aspects of his game aren't necessarily ELITE. That's all. He is still in Double-A after all. B) As for links, no. I'm going to have to cop out with the old "my own sources" excuse and hope you trust me.
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ericmvan
Veteran
Supposed to be working on something more important
Posts: 8,939
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Post by ericmvan on Aug 25, 2013 11:27:53 GMT -5
I don't see a need to pay the extra money to upgrade to McCann when a) there will be a learning curve with the pitchers, b) you're moving down a bit in the draft, c) you can get a hometown discount with Salty, and hence more bang for the buck, and d) a Salty commitment will be shorter, which is ideal given the strength of Swihart and Vazquez as prospects.
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I'm pretty sure that Clay Davenport's defensive rankings for catchers are based strictly on SB, CS, PB, and WP, and as such are more event-based and less estimated than the TotalZone-like numbers for other position players.
His rankings for Vazquez, runs per 150 games:
2010: +26 2011: +28 2012: +31 2013: +32
Swihart:
2011: +17 2012: +26 (a recent scouting report at BP projected his arm as a "weapon")
Lavarnway (ml only)
2009: -18 2010: -8 2011: 0 2012: -6 2013: +16 (SSS; still -3 the last 3 seasons total)
Butler:
2010: -18 2011: +9 2012: -3 2013: -5
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Post by jmei on Aug 25, 2013 12:11:26 GMT -5
I don't see a need to pay the extra money to upgrade to McCann when a) there will be a learning curve with the pitchers, b) you're moving down a bit in the draft, c) you can get a hometown discount with Salty, and hence more bang for the buck, and d) a Salty commitment will be shorter, which is ideal given the strength of Swihart and Vazquez as prospects. I think the first two of your points are exceedingly minor nit-picks against McCann. McCann would have all of spring training to develop a rapport with the pitching staff, and he's always had a good reputation in terms of working with pitchers and game-calling. The draft pick difference is also at worst sliding back 6-8 spots in the draft, and it might even increase the Sox draft position if they offer the QO to Salty, he declines and signs with another team, and the Red Sox sign two or more qualifying free agents. Really, it comes down to whether the upgrade (both offensively and defensively) from Saltalamacchia to McCann is worth the difference between their contracts. I would offer the QO to Saltalamacchia and then see how the market shakes out, with the idea that if McCann is too expensive, the Sox can always circle back to Saltalamacchia and get him on a reasonable deal (because of his still non-elite reputation and the way the QO will presumably diminish his market).
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Aug 25, 2013 13:25:55 GMT -5
I doubt that the Redsox spend a lot of money on catching this off season. It doesn't seem to be a priority for them and maybe they are right in that approach. The difference between a top 5 guy and an average guy isn't that much to warrant $15 mil type contracts.
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Post by xxdamgoodxx on Aug 25, 2013 15:41:42 GMT -5
A McCann signing rests solely on the market for Salty. I doubt that the Sox will forfeit a pick outright for McCann, but if they can get Salty to decline a QO, than they wouldn't hesitate. If Salty is one of the top catchers on the market, by the time the season ends (keep in mind that he is the youngest relevant catcher on the market), than he would decline a QO and the Sox would use that to get McCann. If Salty plays himself into being a middle-of-the-pack catcher (or others play themselves ahead of him) and not much of an upgrade over any of the other catchers, than he would accept a QO and the Sox would not go for McCann or the Sox would re-sign him to a 2-3 year deal and not bother with a QO. My worst fear is that Salty declines and signs somewhere else and then the Sox miss out on McCann and he signs with another team. All we would have is an extra pick and a Lavarnway/Ross tandem for most of the season (until Vazquez gets up), which would hardly be ideal for a pennant race. I don't understand this thing that McCann is a colossal defensive upgrade over Salty McCann has been run all over throughout his career and so has Salty. They both are bad defensive catchers, with regards to steals. McCann is an upgrade over Salty because of his offense and his offense only. There is no need to make up things about how McCann is better at defense than Salty.
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Post by kman22 on Aug 25, 2013 16:04:00 GMT -5
I'd let Salty leave if he declines a QO and go in house or cheap with catching. Turn Salty into a top 40 pick in what should be a deep draft.
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Post by jmei on Aug 25, 2013 16:21:19 GMT -5
I don't understand this thing that McCann is a colossal defensive upgrade over Salty McCann has been run all over throughout his career and so has Salty. They both are bad defensive catchers, with regards to steals. McCann is an upgrade over Salty because of his offense and his offense only. There is no need to make up things about how McCann is better at defense than Salty. You're right that McCann isn't great at holding the running game either (Saltalamacchia, career CS%: 22%; McCann, career CS%: 24%), but by most other measures (DRS, pitch framing, measures of pitch blocking (RPP), Fangraphs' Fan Scouting Reports, etc.) he's a slightly better defensive catcher than Saltalamacchia. A fair point would be to argue that McCann's higher workload and older age mean he's more likely to be worse than Saltalamacchia over the next three or four years, but it's pretty clear that McCann is the better present defensive catcher, even if it's not by a whole ton.
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Post by bigpupp on Aug 25, 2013 19:03:41 GMT -5
I doubt that the Redsox spend a lot of money on catching this off season. It doesn't seem to be a priority for them and maybe they are right in that approach. The difference between a top 5 guy and an average guy isn't that much to warrant $15 mil type contracts. What are you basing this off of? Currently, the Sox don't have anyone under contract for next year that they trust to catch full time. So what else will they do?
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Post by amfox1 on Aug 26, 2013 10:14:59 GMT -5
I doubt that the Redsox spend a lot of money on catching this off season. It doesn't seem to be a priority for them and maybe they are right in that approach. The difference between a top 5 guy and an average guy isn't that much to warrant $15 mil type contracts. I wouldn't consider McCann a top 5 guy (Mauer, Molina, Posey and Santana come to mind immediately). Salty has probably raised himself to be an average guy. If you are implying that Lavarnway or anyone else in the upper minors (ie, above Salem) is an average guy, well ... hmmmm ... there are no words. Personally, I would try to re-sign Salty and position CVaz to take over the backup role after next season. Lavarnway and Butler become trade bait. At this point, I'm not sure if Lavarnway has any value since most of his value was in his bat, and the bat has not performed well this year.
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Post by johnsilver52 on Aug 26, 2013 21:17:51 GMT -5
I don't know what the specific issue is, but a) part of the issue could definitely be Haeger, and b) a large part of his defensive rep comes from his elite arm, but I've been hearing that the blocking and game-calling aren't at that level at all yet. That's interesting. I wonder why his manager called him the best defensive minor league catcher he's ever seen. He must not be watching very close. Wouldn't be really quick to call it a bad thing (if PB's are from framing pitches) as am sure David Ross has had at least 2 of his PB's this season from moving his glove to fast attempting to frame pitches and he's pretty good at it. Not as good as Tek was, but better than Salty. If Vazquez is still learning the finer ropes of pitch framing? I'm all for letting half dozen or so a year go in the minor leagues.
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Post by thelavarnwayguy on Aug 27, 2013 6:40:37 GMT -5
I think Lavarnway's numbers are fine for a catcher, and especially a catcher who actually faced more RH pitchers than left handed, and they were disproportionally quality pitchers as well. Both his offensive numbers and his defensive numbers in the majors at least. A plus DRS. A .283 BA. www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=8879&position=C/DHNonetheless, it is clear that Farrell didn't have faith in him for some reason or he would have played more. It seems evident that they are not planning on using Lavarnway as a starter any time soon. I think they are making a mistake with Lavarnway. A lot of players come up and start off badly hitting in mlb but eventually become studs. The sample sizes are still very small with Lavarnway in the past 2 years and fatigue was very possibly a factor for him last year. At least keep him as an injury back up in AAA. He's a more proven commodity than Butler and Vasquez could use more time in the minors. They probably resign Salty, much to my chagrin, but I would still keep Lavarnway around. He should continue to improve.
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Post by rjp313jr on Aug 27, 2013 10:56:36 GMT -5
People are acting like Salty or McCann are the only options and if one of them aren't the catcher then we're left with Lavarnway/Ross. McCann would be nice, but not sure te cost will be right. My guess is its Salty all the way. Team seems to believe in his improvements. He's still young and my guess is he feels some loyalty to the team that believed in him when others were ready to give up and saved his career.
This organization has done well with both him and Miller in that regard. It's quite possible those two would've flamed out had it not been for the Red Sox and them being smart enough to listen.
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Post by amfox1 on Aug 27, 2013 12:05:44 GMT -5
It's not just Saltalamacchia and McCann, although I cannot say the alternatives (John Buck, A.J. Pierzynski, Carlos Ruiz) are terribly appealing.
Objectively, McCann is the better, more consistent player.
Buck is 33 and a below average offensive catcher, I want no part of Pierzynski and Ruiz is 34 and his performance has dropped this year (plus the amphetamine suspension). Former Red Sox draftee Yan Gomes is a trade option.
The Phillies are moving on from Ruiz and will be big players for Salty (less so for McCann, because they don't need a lefty bat). I think the Hankees will be big players for McCann.
I think McCann will require four years at close to $15mm per year. I think Salty will come a little (but not a lot) cheaper.
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Post by jmei on Aug 27, 2013 13:29:56 GMT -5
If it's McCann for 4/$60 or Saltalamacchia for 3/$35, which would you prefer?
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Post by amfox1 on Aug 27, 2013 13:36:58 GMT -5
Salty. Not close. One less year, gives us about the right time for CVaz or Swihart to be ready. I'd be worried about McCann starting to go downhill in the second half of the contract. Although McCann is only 15 months older, he seems like he has a lot more miles on him (500 additional major league games - roughly four years for a catcher).
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danr
Veteran
Posts: 1,871
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Post by danr on Aug 27, 2013 13:46:32 GMT -5
I think many on this board are underestimating Salty's value. There are very few really decent catchers in the majors right now. Salty is one. He's not great behind the plate, but he has improved to the point that he is about average. His hitting has improved greatly, making him one of the better hitting catchers in the majors.
McCann and Salty have identical BAs and OBPs, but McCann has more HRs, giving him a higher OPs. McCann's CS rate is 29% and Salty's is 19%. McCann is a year older. I don't know if there is any lingering effect of his injury. Overall, the stats difference are not that significant. McCann is said to be a better overall receiver, and I don't dispute that. However, I think Salty has reached the point where he can be considered close to comparable overall.
I think he will get offers from other teams that some may find surprising. To keep him, the Sox may have to pay more than expected.
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Post by jmei on Aug 27, 2013 13:46:42 GMT -5
Interesting. I'd go McCann. I think Saltalamacchia is a big BABIP regression candidate and he's more likely to be a 2012-esque, league-average type guy going forward. McCann is only 29 and will be 33 during the last year of the deal, which isn't ancient. Moreover, even if he has to move off catcher by the end of his contract, his bat plays at DH, and I think he'll offer enough surplus value during the first few years of the deal to offset any decline. Plus, I think the Red Sox have a lot of cash to spend and McCann represents one of the few All-Star caliber players available at a position of need.
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